Tournament of Power is a major let down

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
ekrolo2
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7865
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:27 am
Location: Split, Croatia

Re: Tournament of Power is a major let down

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:03 pm

Miracles wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:Okay, so Goku can't complete Ultra Instinct because he's afraid for himself and his friends and is possibly feeling panicky about the difference in power between himself and Jiren but him feeling angry about Jiren attacking them, an emotion that's more clearly demonstrated then the fear and panic Whis mentions are doesn't throw him off? Didn't he feel shock, fear and panic for his friends when Jiren initially went after them too?

Let's not kid ourselves, Ultra Instinct runs on "Super logic" where in one episode 2+2=4 until the next one has 2+2=482
There's a difference. Goku's mind was idle, focusing on things that had nothing to do with the fight, on the safety of the universe and his lack of power against Jiren. This brought on fears, panic and hesitation, which distracted him from the fight itself. When he finally focused on Jiren and himself, he let those idle thoughts disappear, now he could land effective attacks without letting various thoughts interfere.
Except the iddle fears and concerns when Jiren attacks his friends, that has nothing to do with the battle either but Jiren does it to purposefull throw him off and instead of Goku suffering repercussions for losing his focus, he just gets mad about external factors again and powers up from it. After we just established that letting these factors influence him is what held him back.

Besides convoluted or pedantic work arounds to make sense of bad writing, there's really no way to reconcile how Ultra Instinct flip flops between being a friendship or rage thing to being something you can only improve by essentially not giving a crap about fears or panic.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 3763
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Tournament of Power is a major let down

Post by Miracles » Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:55 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:Except the iddle fears and concerns when Jiren attacks his friends, that has nothing to do with the battle either but Jiren does it to purposefull throw him off and instead of Goku suffering repercussions for losing his focus, he just gets mad about external factors again and powers up from it. After we just established that letting these factors influence him is what held him back.

Besides convoluted or pedantic work arounds to make sense of bad writing, there's really no way to reconcile how Ultra Instinct flip flops between being a friendship or rage thing to being something you can only improve by essentially not giving a crap about fears or panic.
It's not a convoluted workaround. That's what you are doing. Trying to prove Goku protecting his friends DURING the fight somehow interferes as a distraction.
When Whis only stated panic, fear and hesitation is what corrupted Goku from mastering Ultra Instinct [external]. How does protecting his friends with rage mean Goku is afraid or hesitant [internal]?
Where does it state that indignation concentrated ON the fight means outside factor? NONE of those are idle thoughts, those things actually happened MID fight.
You are going against the story and simply stating an external hindrance that isn't there.

User avatar
ekrolo2
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7865
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:27 am
Location: Split, Croatia

Re: Tournament of Power is a major let down

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:58 pm

Miracles wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:Except the iddle fears and concerns when Jiren attacks his friends, that has nothing to do with the battle either but Jiren does it to purposefull throw him off and instead of Goku suffering repercussions for losing his focus, he just gets mad about external factors again and powers up from it. After we just established that letting these factors influence him is what held him back.

Besides convoluted or pedantic work arounds to make sense of bad writing, there's really no way to reconcile how Ultra Instinct flip flops between being a friendship or rage thing to being something you can only improve by essentially not giving a crap about fears or panic.
It's not a convoluted workaround. That's what you are doing. Trying to prove Goku protecting his friends DURING the fight somehow interferes as a distraction.
When Whis only stated panic, fear and hesitation is what corrupted Goku from mastering Ultra Instinct [external]. How does protecting his friends with rage mean Goku is afraid or hesitant [internal]?
Where does it state that indignation concentrated ON the fight means outside factor? NONE of those are idle thoughts, those things actually happened MID fight.
You are going against the story and simply stating an external hindrance that isn't there.
Goku isn't protecting his friends with rage when he goes to intercept Jiren's blast directed at them, he's shocked, paicked and fearful IE EXTERNAL FACTORS influencing him again as they did previously is what prompts him to jump in and block JIren's attack, the anger only comes later and yet Goku's fear, shock and panic at external things don't matter the instant he realizes what Jiren's trying to do and he has to scramble to stop it.

I literally do not see how Goku momentarily becoming shocked and worried for his friends safety when Jiren tries to kill them is any different then him worrying about what'll happen to them if he losses. It's the same thing, except in episode 129 Goku is supposed to not give a fuck and then in 130, we need him to care so his next Jiren beat down looks cooler.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 3763
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Tournament of Power is a major let down

Post by Miracles » Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:20 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:Goku isn't protecting his friends with rage when he goes to intercept Jiren's blast directed at them, he's shocked, paicked and fearful IE EXTERNAL FACTORS influencing him again as they did previously is what prompts him to jump in and block JIren's attack, the anger only comes later and yet Goku's fear, shock and panic at external things don't matter the instant he realizes what Jiren's trying to do and he has to scramble to stop it.

I literally do not see how Goku momentarily becoming shocked and worried for his friends safety when Jiren tries to kill them is any different then him worrying about what'll happen to them if he losses. It's the same thing, except in episode 129 Goku is supposed to not give a fuck and then in 130, we need him to care so his next Jiren beat down looks cooler.
Cause Whis stated one emotion stems from "confusion [129]" the other is from "pure impulse" when protecting his friends [130].

Post Reply