Revisiting Episode 67 of Super

[Freeza9000]

I'd have been totally down to see Trunks really come into his own and save the future once again with the combination of his own power and the help of the people who believed in him. An evil god banished by the collective will to survive of the mortals he despised. Would've been poetic.

I thought it was poetic enough that it took the entire sacrifice of the world that Zamasu sought to cleanse of "plague" and remodel after his own divine will. Not to mention, after all his narcissistic shit talk about how he's the infallible god ever radiating beauty only to later be expunged by the actual top multiversal God in the food chain that is Zeno.

Instead the evil god basically wins.

No he didn't. His downfall was just as great a colossal failure as Future Trunks's, except he was eviscerated from existence just when victory was almost at his fingertips. It's basically a Pyrrhic victory.

To me, Dragon Ball was always about overcoming your limits in the face of danger and doing the impossible. A depressing, wholesale loss like that just feels wrong, especially after all the build up Trunks had as a "hero of hope". Turns out to be the most hopeless battle in Dragon Ball history.

Just because he supposedly represents "hope" doesn't mean he will succeed. As a matter of fact, even after seeing his own world erased and knowing that the alternative Whis chose for him isn't his home, Trunks didn't shove his sword through his trachea at the end. He and Mai have become stronger as a result of the war and can use that experience to protect the new time they are departing to. So it's not overall hopeless. Both survivors still held on to hope in the face of utter loss and despair.

[TheShadowEmperor8055]

I think the episode was a response to anyone that said "death means nothing in Dragon Ball".

Well, it sure meant a lot in this episode. Whole arc was filled with tension.

[Rebel Instinct]

I thought it was poetic enough that it took the entire sacrifice of the world that Zamasu sought to cleanse of "plague" and remodel after his own divine will. Not to mention, after all his narcissistic shit talk about how he's the infallible god ever radiating beauty only to later be expunged by the actual top multiversal God in the food chain that is Zeno.

I get that there was a certain level of poetic irony in the sacrifice made to stop Zamasu. I was just pointing out that there were other scenarios that could carry a similar thematic weight while still not going to the extreme of erasing Trunks' entire timeline. Episode 66 had actually even built up the idea of mortals defeating gods by working together, it's just that the following episode pulls a hard 180 on the theme of the previous episode. I would've been happier if the threat of Zamasu had ended in 66 and there would still be a solid poetic end to the main villain and the arc itself. Trunks' legacy would remain intact and there would still be permanent consequences, while still ending the arc on a solid thematic finish. In my mind, it's just a more ideal route to take and I doubt it would've been half as polarizing.

No he didn't. His downfall was just as great a colossal failure as Future Trunks's, except he was eviscerated from existence just when victory was almost at his fingertips. It's basically a Pyrrhic victory.

Which is why I used the modifier "basically". I know Zamasu didn't ultimately win since he was erased, but he did accomplish his goal for a short time before Zeno intervened and he proved that he was right about mortals - they really were inferior to him and they could never defeat an immortal god. It's kinda screwed up that his perception of mortals being helpless and weak was more or less shown to be accurate and it took another god to kill a god after all. Pyrrhic victory it may be, but without a literal deus ex machina, he would have been victorious.

Just because he supposedly represents "hope" doesn't mean he will succeed. As a matter of fact, even after seeing his own world erased and knowing that the alternative Whis chose for him isn't his home, Trunks didn't shove his sword through his trachea at the end. He and Mai have become stronger as a result of the war and can use that experience to protect the new time they are departing to. So it's not overall hopeless. Both survivors still held on to hope in the face of utter loss and despair.

I get that, but building a protagonist up for an entire arc just to say "Nah, you lose anyway." at the eleventh hour is still a very unsatisfying way of resolving a character arc. My meaning was that there was no hope for Trunk's original timeline. Nothing he did while acting as a symbol of hope meant anything for the timeline he was actually fighting to save. His crowning moment with the "Final Hope Slash" was the most hopeless endeavor in the arc. There would be some serious emotional catharsis had Trunks really won. Instead it just feels hollow and depressing. There was no payoff. They "saved" an alternate version of the future, but that endangered future didn't even need to exist in the first place. Thinking about it, Trunks and Mai essentially had a new endangered world created on a whim just so they can go save it. It could be argued that in the face of failure, Trunks and Mai are actually choosing to go live a lie. One could think of this as having hope, but it's a bit of a dubious method of creating hope and it certainly didn't leave me feeling inspired. I'm certain different people are apt to have differing takeaways from it - kind of like the old glass half empty vs. glass half full adage. I see the net result of the ending in a more pessimistic light, but that's just me.

*Btw, I'm getting ready to hit the hay since I've got work in the morning, but I'd be more than happy to continue the conversation tomorrow. Feel free to reply to me and I'll get back to you tomorrow.

[Kataphrut]

It was a terrible handling of an idea that could have worked if they had *really* put the effort in. The biggest problem is Zamasu's survival and power up into an eldritch abomination came completely out of nowhere. No buildup, it was just a cheap way to undo everyone's hard work and force a resolution to the setup with Zeno.

Why couldn't they just give Trunks the win? He's been through enough, and it was such a great moment. All that ending does is render the entire struggle pointless.

[Rebel Instinct]

It was a terrible handling of an idea that could have worked if they had *really* put the effort in. The biggest problem is Zamasu's survival and power up into an eldritch abomination came completely out of nowhere. No buildup, it was just a cheap way to undo everyone's hard work and force a resolution to the setup with Zeno.

Why couldn't they just give Trunks the win? He's been through enough, and it was such a great moment. All that ending does is render the entire struggle pointless.

Not to beat a dead horse since I'm all over this thread as it is , but my sentiments exactly.

[FubukiFoxx]

To be honest, I didn't mind that ending; it goes to show that not every story has a happy ending, a very important lesson. Likewise, it's a little more interesting from a narrative perspective than just "and they all lived happily ever after".

I loved Black/Zamasu in that arc, and I'm glad that their 'end' (because, who really knows after all) was something more interesting than just being defeated ala every other antagonist.

[Master Xar]

It was a terrible handling of an idea that could have worked if they had *really* put the effort in. The biggest problem is Zamasu's survival and power up into an eldritch abomination came completely out of nowhere. No buildup, it was just a cheap way to undo everyone's hard work and force a resolution to the setup with Zeno.

Why couldn't they just give Trunks the win? He's been through enough, and it was such a great moment. All that ending does is render the entire struggle pointless.

Actually there were a few foreshadows thrown in regarding Zamasu’s Universe fusion, as he was immortal they hinted that it was rooted even into his very soul since Black wasn’t immortal and it destabilized the fusion, I guess you could say this is their interpretation of how an immortal soul without a body would work... as merged zamasu he kept going on and on about how he was “justice as form” and that he was “the world” there wasn’t massive foreshadows, but it was there.


Trunks is a tragic character in the series, he doesn’t have a chance or is really given any closure on his situations and that’s what makes it so great, Dragonball is a very happy series with not to much consequence and I like that, and while I wish it could’ve been executed better “ala without Vegito retcon and Random Hope Spirit Bomb” it shows that Hope is just that, a slim chance of fighting against fate, and that in the end it was a pointless struggle, they were doomed from the start and the second Zamasu became immortal via SDBs, Trunks failed and will be haunted by that forever, Goku and Vegeta aren’t going to shake this off either the next time they see him... but they will be all the stronger for it, and Trunks may finally be able to find peace and closure next time... or die trying, either way next to time we see him (when the heat dies down from the Sword of Hope thing) we’ll be rooting for him all the more.

[emperior]

I liked the ending. It was unexpected, and surprisingly dark for a show like Dragon Ball.
Future Trunks’ life is a story of tragedy, yet he never loses his “hope” and Super really got it right. While the closure he got in DBZ was perfect, I loved the whole FT arc in Super as it showed Trunks getting some consequence for his time-breaking acts, which was something already foreshadowed in Jaco’s manga and during RoF/U6 arc.
I don’t believe Trunks’ story is over yet. I think he could re-appear in the future in some way or another. I definitely want to see something about his new life in the future, and I’m glad he’s not alone.

[dbs fanboy]

This ending gave me a lot of mixed signals. Firstly, i loved how it was a break to the status quo with the whole hero does not win thing and the fact that the villain didn't either. It felt really symbolic. Throught the arc Trunks and co were represented as the villains to Black/Zamasu and viceversa, basically both of these two sides wanted to protect the future from what they considered evil, so the fact that both of them lost everything had impact. There's also the fact that at that moment Beerus's line about the fact that sometimes is best to give up could not be (at least for me) forgotten after watching this episode.
I also loved the fact that death was suddenly made relevant again, as the characters had to cope with something they couldn't just fix. Furthermore, i liked how it completely nullified the whole typical anime thing of "nakama power is the strongest" and how Zeno was not just a simple deus ex machina as instead of solving things, he made them even worse.The ending was dark and bittersweet and i still can't comprehend how was Toriyama able to think about such a thing.

Now, on the other hand, as certain users have pointed out before, Trunks was completely destroyed with this ending, and to make it worse, the fact that he's going to be "happy" in another reality, doesn't really fix anything as now he'll be reminded of his failure anytime he sees anyone in his new home: "Oh hello people, you all died on my timeline because i failed but is all right because at least in this timeline you are alive (even thought you're still not the folk i swore to protect).
I mean, why Trunks? he actually deserves some good shit come on, the Z fighters in the main timeline screw up constantly but get saved because plot devices (dragon balls) and the guy who was able to survive without those said devices has to suffer? that's simply not fair.

So yeah, liked it because plot twists and symbolism, and dislike it for making Trunks suffer, thought i gotta say that i loved his moment with Gohan and after this arc i respect him much more; i meanhis character is actually much more fleshed out while in the Cell arc, i didn't actually care that much about him (being his special the exception). Unlike other people i hope to see him again, but not because fanboyism or something like that , but because i feel that his story hasn't really ended, in fact, if dbs tied up with db online and Future Trunks became a patrol, this ending may be more relevant to his character besides raping him emotionally and it could open room for new plots (who knows, maybe with time travel shenanigans, our hero may be able to really undo all the damage in his original timeline and be truly happy living in his original timeline).


Edit.

Currently i'm rewatching the arc in my own language, so each time a scene with the people in the future talking about hope and all that shit appears, i actually feel really saddened: "the poor guys don't know that they're all going to die" is what i say while watching. It really feels much more tragic when rewatching it.

[ZombieVito]

An amazing ending to my favorite arc in all Dragon Ball. The fact that we finally got real consequences in Dragon Ball is unbelievable and a breath of much needed fresh air. Episodes 65-67 were such a great climax.

And I totally agree with the poster that said Toyotaro ruined the ending. He definitely did. Infinite Zamasu is just pathetic in the manga and it makes no sense for Zeno to destroy the entire timeline when the former is not a real treat at all. Vegeta is awful in that chapter too.

[Cetra]

It is after Episode 64 of GT my most favourite episode ever. I as a major Final Fantasy addict just must love it. It is in my genes.

[dbs fanboy]

And I totally agree with the poster that said Toyotaro ruined the ending. He definitely did. Infinite Zamasu is just pathetic in the manga and it makes no sense for Zeno to destroy the entire timeline when the former is not a real treat at all. Vegeta is awful in that chapter too.

To me it was ruined because i had no reason to care about such a dark ending. In the anime, the scene had impact because throught the arc we had seen Trunks struggling (with PTSD at times) with this conflict and we could see how the humans still fought back because they had hope, this made me become invested with the whole plot besides the fact that Black ws a villain and had to be defeated. Toei actually made me care enough about these characters to make me sad when they were killed.
In the manga everyone dies and nobody says a thing or react.

[ZombieVito]

And I totally agree with the poster that said Toyotaro ruined the ending. He definitely did. Infinite Zamasu is just pathetic in the manga and it makes no sense for Zeno to destroy the entire timeline when the former is not a real treat at all. Vegeta is awful in that chapter too.

To me it was ruined because i had no reason to care about such a dark ending. In the anime, the scene had impact because throught the arc we had seen Trunks struggling (with PTSD at times) with this conflict and we could see how the humans still fought back because they had hope, this made me become invested with the whole plot besides the fact that Black ws a villain and had to be defeated. Toei actually made me care enough about these characters to make me sad when they were killed.
In the manga everyone dies and nobody says a thing or react.

Yup. The manga did a horrible job of making me care for the timeline.

I was gutted when the kids died.

[Lord Beerus]

I love it. And as far as plot twists go, it ranks as the best for me.

The episode was unexpectedly tragic and downright heartbreaking but also very heartwarming. With the events of the previous episode you would have thought Dragon Ball Super would follow down the same path as it has always done with the heroes coming out on top and everything being restored, but... no. All of the Earthlings in Future Trunks world die apart from him and Mai and ultimately his entire timeline is wiped out. Everything about humanity banding together and using their hope and belief as strength to live another day was ultimately not enough. But, you know what, a lot of time in life, that's unfortunately just the case. Sometimes all that you give isn't enough.

Mai's reaction to situation in particular was downright heartbreaking. You could really tell that she carried an immense burden to protect what was left of Earth and to see all the effort to be essentially worth nothing would send any person into downward spiral of emotions. Gowasu also blaming himself for all that happened was really sad, and it seemed as though that guy really was hit with a serious case of survivor's guilt. But the moment in particular in that episode that hit me like a dagger in the heart was when Gohan rushed to tell Future Trunks to take care of himself. That moment just... killed me. Even after all the misery created by the Androids, Cell, Goku Black and Zamasu, and while Future Trunks lamented the fact he could protect his world, we still have the wonderful moment of Gohan rushing to say to at least bid Future Trunks farewell and wanting the best for him. And Future Trunks responding enthusiastically with tears in his eyes, while thinking of Future Gohan, as he leaves is all so painfully bittersweet but works so damn well.

No one really won in the end of this arc. Zamasu is dead but the damage he's done couldn't be fixed and every human, except Mai and Future Trunks from Future Trunks' world is dead. The only real solace is that Future Trunks and Mai will never have to deal with this kind of shit again. Future Trunks' story began with tragedy and ended ultimately in tragedy. Any hope or peace that Future Trunks has in his world doesn't last for long, and in the end, he loses everything has to start a new life in a completely new timeline. This ending was so heavy handed for Dragon Ball, and this all felt so un-Dragon Ball, and for Toriyama to go down this route I have to give nothing but major props for him doing so. It was one of the few times in Dragon Ball where death carried a permanent effect on the story.I don't think we will ever see an ending to an arc as unique as that ever again.

[DHM211]

Story wise it was actually a very solid episode imo. If weren't for Kitano's cut of the episode giving me ptsd back to episode 24, it would be a solid 9/10. All things considered, I'd give it an 8/10.

[Noah]

This episode was the worst thing that ever happened in this franchise, Rebel Instinct and Asura pretty much sums up all of my thoughts about it in the first page.

I like Future Trunks, he's not my favorite character (I don't think I have one either), I hated his asspulls in the anime to stay revelant to the plot, but still the perfect ending would be he defeating Merged Zamasu with his Final HOPE Slash thing, Future Zeno coming up to "save" everything was a dumb add and made all the fighting and struggle look pointless. Then we get that F. Trunks only option is to live like a "clone" in another timeline that all his friends were still alive and Beerus dealed with Zamasu, just pathetic. I cried with him when he saw Gohan and reminded that in the end he failed and that's just pretty sad.

I had a friend who was excited about watching Super, but unfortunately he dropped after this episode, he couldn't take it anymore and I don't blame him, the only reason I kept watching this show is because I love this damn franchise no matter how sh*t Super episodes were, I always interested to see what's coming up and I glad nowadays the quality had improved a lot and there's less issues like a year ago.

I also glad this whole thing never happened in the original serialization, so don't know about people with their headcanons: but Future Trunks lived happily after killing Cell in his timeline.

[Faisal Shourov]

Easily one of the best arc endings in entire Dragon Ball. Very original and unexpected. Dunno about powerscaling but it was a good move storywise.

Dragon Ball is extremely criticized for it's lack of consequence where death means absolutely nothing, you can wish back anybody. That lack of meaningful deaths increasingly destroyed any tension in the series since we all know heroes will remain happy no matter what, eventually. This arc finally gave some meaning to sacrifices. It was much needed for a generally shallow show like Dragon Ball which has repetitive arcs with little relevant continuity.

There's a reason people like to trash on Dragon Ball's depth comparing to other anime, Jiraiya's death in Naruto was infinitely more sad than anything in Dragon Ball

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

Thematically its among the best endings in the series, Lord Beerus and Cipher made great posts about it.

[Saturnine]

I agree with the OP. An irretrievable ending was a ballzy move by Toriyama, and possibly a foreshadowing that not all outcomes can be salvaged.

I actually wouldn't go so far as to say that everything Trunks had worked for was ruined - he was after all sent to a peaceful timeline of his own making, which wouldn't be possible had he not defeated the Androids.

[FortuneSSJ]

It's good to know Toriyama has the balls the come out with a ending like that. Not many mangakas do. And Toei did better than Toyotaro.
FT Trunks in the manga was smiling like nothing bad had happened and that was ridiculous, because no matter how you approach it it's not supposed to be a happy ending at all.