Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Postby lord turbo » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:39 am

lancerman wrote:People are getting way too up tight about Vegeta's transformation. Is it really a whole lot different from the difference between the difference between SSJ and SSJ 2. Vegeta's hair changed and it's a darker blue, his eyes turned an even darker shade of blue, and he has a new sparkley aura. How different is that from slightly spikier hair and lightning in the aura?

Just call this Super Saiyan Blue 2 or Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 2.


I've gotten used to the lack of effort palette swap designs, I honestly feel the lake of creativity in Toriyama's head dried up a long time ago. I say call this form Royal Blue Vegeta.
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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Postby Lord Beerus » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:40 am

Great episode. A little rough at times with the animation and art, but the direction, storyboarding and script more than made up for it.

Jiren: "Warrior. Sleep."
Jiren continues to be the king of throwing shades. I love this guy.

Zeno imitating the Jiren's awesome line and pose when he did he said that line was hysterical.

Android 17 continues to be one of the standout characters of this arc. I love how #17 pointed out that he and Gohan have never fought together, and because of this, they can't really coordinate their attacks together properly against Toppo. That being said, the method for which #17 came up with to eliminate Toppo was ingenious. Such a shame it didn't work.

Goku put on one of his best displays of tactical fighting I've ever seen. Him laying down those Ki "sparkles" and spreading them around Jiren like a he was in minefield was wonderful. And what followed was even better, with him throwing those Kienzan and cutting apart the platform that Jiren was only and (nearly) knocking him out. Plus, that was technique that Goku learned when he fought Krillin during their fight in Episode 84. I'm so happy that that recruitment episode actually had some kind of payoff.

Jiren's punch scaring Goku of his SSJB form was brilliant. That sudden moment of realisation that when Jiren exerts some tangible effort in his physical attacks they can produce that much of effect really emphasized how much of obstacle that he is to overcome and helped in selling that Jiren is such a force of nature that when unrestrained he can do so much damage without even need to do much.

Goku and Vegeta resolute attitudes in the final few minutes was beautiful and wonderfully summed up their characters. They're characters who don't give in, even when the odds are heavily stacked against them. And I found Vegeta's motivation for him "breaking through his shell" to be excellent. We know that Vegeta is fighting in the Tournament Of Power to save his universe, but the motivation for actually obtaining the Super Dragon Balls is palatable and believable. He's not only fighting for his family and friends in his Universe, but he's also fighting for his Universe 6, but more specifically Cabba and his race. Vegeta's promise to Cabba, and his relationship as whole, meant a hell of lot more to him than we first thought and seeing it displayed in such a way was really great character development for him. It showed Vegeta's has quite a lot empathy, despite how he may outwardly act sometimes, and also it shows that his source of power can be channelled through more than one means. I'm really happy to see the conviction for Vegeta's breaking his limits in strength can come from other personal ties. It's all a great balance of Vegeta retaining the pride of who he is as a Saiyan and fighting so intensely to ensure his race lives on, while also further adding more layers to his characterization and adding some emotional weight to winning the Super Dragon Balls. Awesome stuff.
Last edited by Lord Beerus on Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Postby emperior » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:25 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:Goku and Vegeta resolute attitudes in the final few minutes was beautiful and wonderfully summed up their characters. They're characters who don't give in, even when the odds are heavily stacked against them. And I found Vegeta's motivation for him "breaking through his shell" to be excellent. We know that Vegeta is fighting in the Tournament Of Power to save his universe, but the motivation for actually obtaining the Super Dragon Balls is palatable and believable. He's not only fighting for his family and friends in his Universe, but he's also fighting for his Universe 6, but more specifically Cabba and his race. Vegeta's promise to Cabba, and his relationship as whole, meant a hell of lot more to him than we first thought and seeing it displayed in such a way was really great character development for him. It showed Vegeta's has quite a lot empathy, despite how he may outwardly act sometimes, and also it shows that his source of power can be channelled through more than one means. I'm really happy to see the conviction for Vegeta's breaking his limits in strength can come from other personal ties. It's all a great balance of Vegeta retaining the pride of who he is as a Saiyan and fighting so intensely to ensure his race lives on, while also further adding more layers to his characterization and adding some emotional weight to winning the Super Dragon Balls. Awesome stuff.

I agree with you. I didn't like how they were writing Vegeta in the ToP, but the last two episodes have given some nice development to his character. I feel like he should become the King of the Saiyans, one day, to end his character arc. I can see Vegeta getting crowned as the King of U6 Saiyans if Sadala arc happens. I think this is the way Toriyama wants to go with Vegeta, and I would be extremely happy with that if that is the case.
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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Postby ShinTenshin » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:33 pm

That's really the Vegeta i like.
The way he want absolutely respect his promise show how much he's different right now.
Kyabe is important to him.
Vegeta don't feel egoist as his transformation isn't just to protect his family, Vegeta has now more than before.
I think most fans don't understand how the scene was emotional.

Not only Kyabe is dead but he's totally erased from existence.
Vegeta is the only one related to U6 now, if he lost it's over for their entire universe..
Goku want to save U7 and the earth so if Vegeta lost his family can survive (if Goku win).

It's pretty clear Vegeta hasn't show everything, his form seems equal to SSBLUE Kaioken but we know later he will try to surpass the Hakaishin Toppo.
If we assume than ASSB is a Toei thing, we know even in the Manga that SSBLUE Mastered is nothing for Hakaishin (even a restrained Toppo beat it).
So we have two Blue forms that are useless for the final fight of Vegeta.
That's 100% confirmed, Vegeta will unlock another thing, maybe we'll have the emotional moment with his family that everybody wait.
So don't be surprise if Vegeta unlock UI against Toppo.
The way the last ending is portrayed make me think he'll have it (the extinguish of blue flame, ASSB Vegeta isn't bulky, the way he seems equal to UI Goku etc...)

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Postby BlueBasilisk » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:33 pm

emperior wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Goku and Vegeta resolute attitudes in the final few minutes was beautiful and wonderfully summed up their characters. They're characters who don't give in, even when the odds are heavily stacked against them. And I found Vegeta's motivation for him "breaking through his shell" to be excellent. We know that Vegeta is fighting in the Tournament Of Power to save his universe, but the motivation for actually obtaining the Super Dragon Balls is palatable and believable. He's not only fighting for his family and friends in his Universe, but he's also fighting for his Universe 6, but more specifically Cabba and his race. Vegeta's promise to Cabba, and his relationship as whole, meant a hell of lot more to him than we first thought and seeing it displayed in such a way was really great character development for him. It showed Vegeta's has quite a lot empathy, despite how he may outwardly act sometimes, and also it shows that his source of power can be channelled through more than one means. I'm really happy to see the conviction for Vegeta's breaking his limits in strength can come from other personal ties. It's all a great balance of Vegeta retaining the pride of who he is as a Saiyan and fighting so intensely to ensure his race lives on, while also further adding more layers to his characterization and adding some emotional weight to winning the Super Dragon Balls. Awesome stuff.

I agree with you. I didn't like how they were writing Vegeta in the ToP, but the last two episodes have given some nice development to his character. I feel like he should become the King of the Saiyans, one day, to end his character arc. I can see Vegeta getting crowned as the King of U6 Saiyans if Sadala arc happens. I think this is the way Toriyama wants to go with Vegeta, and I would be extremely happy with that if that is the case.

Maybe the King of Sadala will be childless and adopt Vegeta as his heir? :lol:

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Postby The gr » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:53 pm

A fun episode, even better than last week.
    Zeno imitating Jiren was so cute,is one of the better scene of Zeno.The exposition gallery continue to be annoying, they hardly say anything interesting and only state the obvious when they don't bother explaining the weird stuff.
      The best part of the episode was Goku battle smart,the move were so fun and they used the kienzan so we'll,this is something that I wanted in the special.
        Vegeta new form is kinda lame, I liked that he remembered Cabba promise,is a touching scene however I'm annoyed that the didn't used Bra for motivation, would have been a great to show Vegeta saiyan pride and humanity.
          As many noted,the animation was clunky,the storyboarding and direction did saved this episode from a being a mediocre mess like 119.Jiren is really stupid if he didn't finish off Goku and Vegeta there,he works as a wall not as character, at least his fighting style was cool.
            Toppo section was fun albeit off.Frieza segment was absolutely garbage, the worst part of the episode and it took all the power from the previous encounter,it annoys the writers don't have Frieza struggle for once.
            Last edited by The gr on Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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            Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

            Postby pacz360 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:57 pm

            Vegeta can use bra and bulma as motivation in 126 anyway so calm down
            Besides I like him using cabba as a motivation anyway

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            Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

            Postby The gr » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:01 pm

            pacz360 wrote:Vegeta can use bra and bulma as motivation in 126 anyway so calm down
            Besides I like him using cabba as a motivation anyway

            It feels forced when he only thought of Cabba,I probably would have cared for it if the character was any good.Vegeta should also show concern for his family,is something that Super was doing well,he hasn't even show his family man side in the Top,I hope your right if they used in 126.

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            Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

            Postby lancerman » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:04 pm

            Artorias wrote:
            lancerman wrote:People are getting way too up tight about Vegeta's transformation. Is it really a whole lot different from the difference between the difference between SSJ and SSJ 2. Vegeta's hair changed and it's a darker blue, his eyes turned an even darker shade of blue, and he has a new sparkley aura. How different is that from slightly spikier hair and lightning in the aura?

            Just call this Super Saiyan Blue 2 or Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 2.


            The problem is the writers should actually just come out and SAY that it is in fact SSB2. That's all they would have to do, but since they for whatever reason refuse to explain ANYTHING in this show, we're left to just make up our own headcanon, which is bad writing.

            What did they call SSJ2 when SSJ2 first happened? It was just Gohan going 1 step further than before. It really wasn't even a defined form until SSJ3. It was just Gohan's special thing

            There's virtually no difference. There's actually arguably more difference because Vegeta's hair changed a little bit and changed to a darker shade, his eyes got a darker shade of blue, he has more muscles, and he has a new aura with sparkles. I think people are going overboard on this one.

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            Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

            Postby BWri » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:10 pm

            Artorias wrote:But they should still say what the hell it is. Explain what the power up actually is, don't just give Vegeta a random power up and call it a day. The fact that Toriyama didn't directly tell them to do it seems irrelevant here, they should still be held accountable to explain their asspull forms. Just give me SOMETHING, ANYTHING. How about instead of doing needless, annoying, pace-destroying cutaways to the crowd talking about boring nonsense that no one cares about, they use that time to actually exposit something worth expositing.

            Oh yeah. You'll get no argument from me there. It's a horrible decision and only results in a weaker narrative. I'm just trying to figure out why they keep doing it. It's odd that they've again fallen back on this, but I'm starting to understand why.

            Honestly, they should've used the episode before this one to build up this form. As such, in two consecutive episodes Vegeta uses two distinct powerups (and motivations for the powerups) and both come off like asspulls. And instead of Cabba specifically being the trigger, the trigger should have been the thought of losing his family. Not just Bulma and Bra, but all the Saiyans in U6. Losing his entire race again AND his family would've been the best trigger for Vegeta and would've been much more satisfying.
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            Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

            Postby Rod » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:20 pm

            I will always regret the creative decision that led the producers to make Blue + Kaio Ken have two auras (red and blue) instead of one purple one. I know it's a minor thing really bugs me, it just doesn't seem like auras would work that way, oh well

            Oh and to those saying power levels are inconsistent, are you guys new to DB? :lol:

            I do have one question regarding translations. What's up with Vegeta's Blue 2? Characters kept referring to it as breaking to shells, limit, etc. but they didn't actually call it Limit Break (and clearly it's a different thing) so what's going on there?

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            Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

            Postby BWri » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:25 pm

            TheSaiyanGod wrote:TOEI most likely created the concept of SSB KK, and for almost 3 sagas, Goku remained stronger than Vegeta because of this technique. Then, nothing more fair than her to create something else, that makes Vegeta equal to Goku now.

            That's fine. I just think the manga does it better. Reintroducing KK and allowing Goku to stack it on top of SSB just made the gap between him and Vegeta way too wide for my liking. It's created this awkward imbalance for a while now and the show writers finally addressed the imbalance they created by creating a new ill conceived and poorly explained form for Vegeta. I'll eat my words if we get more satisfying details about this form and why it's now magically equal to KKx20 or possibly even stronger, but for now I like the simpler and more logical path of mastering God ki that the manga has laid out for us. That feels more like classic DB.
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            Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

            Postby mahakaishin1991 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:42 pm

            Rod wrote:I will always regret the creative decision that led the producers to make Blue + Kaio Ken have two auras (red and blue) instead of one purple one. I know it's a minor thing really bugs me, it just doesn't seem like auras would work that way, oh well

            Oh and to those saying power levels are inconsistent, are you guys new to DB? :lol:

            I do have one question regarding translations. What's up with Vegeta's Blue 2? Characters kept referring to it as breaking to shells, limit, etc. but they didn't actually call it Limit Break (and clearly it's a different thing) so what's going on there?


            I dont see why it wouldnt. Giving him a purple aura would mean having to explain why its not a new transformation. Its a powerup stacked on top of a form, so the aura stacks on top of the other one

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            Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

            Postby puar » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:54 pm

            dbs fanboy wrote:Pretty good episode, thought the animation had nothing actually noteworthy.

            About Vegeta's new form........... it's literally ikari 2.0 with the only difference being that Vegeta's change it's being acknowledged in-universe so i'm fine with it. What annoyed me about rage was not that it had no explanation (ssj 3 didn't have any as well) but because the form.... was just there, and nobody was reacting to it as if something not normal was happening. Here Vegeta is simply doing what Goku did but on his own way,simply going all out beyond his limits. Hell i wouldn't even call this a new transformation, it can still be seen as super saiyan blue, but improved.

            I like how Vegeta is not only obssesed with Jiren for his pride, but also for his "saiyan mentor duty", it really fixes all those scenes with him wanting to beat the very strongest fighter even thought Goku wasn't able to do it even with UI, so it doesn't seem like the typical "OH, the saiyan prince is blinded by his own hype" moment, but more like the not so typical "OH, here's a self called arrogant warrior who knows that he can't realistically do anything, but still doesn't give up because he still has to do something anyway" moment. That's nice, and pretty refreshing after all the bullshit that Vegeta has done (character wise) in this arc.

            Goku using Krillin's strategy was pretty nice too, and also using his own one (mine field), it's funny how he got closer to defeating Jiren by using technique rather than raw power, it really reinforces the idea that mind=power in a fight.

            Gohan and 17 teaming up was also really nice, but the best part of this episode was obviously the VegetaxGoku fight against Jiren. Some time ago i talked about this on other thread, about how i was hoping that Vegeta could still be kept on the tournament despite losing to this beast, instead of being eliminated, and how much i wanted to see these two saiyans work together to defeat Supersaitama (yes that's what i'm calling him now), and it seems i predicted the future so i feel really happy now.

            EDIT:

            Last week i couldn't say anything about it since i wasn't able to share my thoughts, but damn, the new ending is awful, both the visuals and the song are really off. Funny how i thought the last one was the very best of all and now i think this one is the worst.

            NEP looks nice i'm looking forward to #124.

            puar wrote:terrible episode. generic fights. sloppy animation. I'm tired of jiren and I'm tired of goku. i want to see toppo and dyspo and frieza. thankfully the next episode gonna focus on them.

            But you did see Toppo and Dyspo, lol.


            Bearly. I'm talking about them being the main event

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            Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

            Postby emperior » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:57 pm

            BlueBasilisk wrote:
            emperior wrote:
            Lord Beerus wrote:Goku and Vegeta resolute attitudes in the final few minutes was beautiful and wonderfully summed up their characters. They're characters who don't give in, even when the odds are heavily stacked against them. And I found Vegeta's motivation for him "breaking through his shell" to be excellent. We know that Vegeta is fighting in the Tournament Of Power to save his universe, but the motivation for actually obtaining the Super Dragon Balls is palatable and believable. He's not only fighting for his family and friends in his Universe, but he's also fighting for his Universe 6, but more specifically Cabba and his race. Vegeta's promise to Cabba, and his relationship as whole, meant a hell of lot more to him than we first thought and seeing it displayed in such a way was really great character development for him. It showed Vegeta's has quite a lot empathy, despite how he may outwardly act sometimes, and also it shows that his source of power can be channelled through more than one means. I'm really happy to see the conviction for Vegeta's breaking his limits in strength can come from other personal ties. It's all a great balance of Vegeta retaining the pride of who he is as a Saiyan and fighting so intensely to ensure his race lives on, while also further adding more layers to his characterization and adding some emotional weight to winning the Super Dragon Balls. Awesome stuff.

            I agree with you. I didn't like how they were writing Vegeta in the ToP, but the last two episodes have given some nice development to his character. I feel like he should become the King of the Saiyans, one day, to end his character arc. I can see Vegeta getting crowned as the King of U6 Saiyans if Sadala arc happens. I think this is the way Toriyama wants to go with Vegeta, and I would be extremely happy with that if that is the case.

            Maybe the King of Sadala will be childless and adopt Vegeta as his heir? :lol:

            I would prefer to see something more "Saiyan". Like Vegeta challenging the King in a battle and winning to become the King, or doing something to show his worth as the King. But if he revives them all they will probably want him as their King regardless of his status, character or power.
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            Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

            Postby BlueBasilisk » Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:10 pm

            emperior wrote:I would prefer to see something more "Saiyan". Like Vegeta challenging the King in a battle and winning to become the King, or doing something to show his worth as the King. But if he revives them all they will probably want him as their King regardless of his status, character or power.

            I've been thinking it would be nice if they went a step further and rather than become king, Vegeta becomes the protector god of the Saiyan race and passed down through the legends of his people.

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            Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

            Postby WittyUsername » Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:22 pm

            Not an especially great episode, but not bad by any means. The animation wasn’t the best, but the last few minutes were nice, and it’s cool to see Goku and Vegeta working together. I can’t say I’m all crazy about the fact that we have yet another Saiyan transformation, but with all the powerups that Goku has been getting, it makes sense that they would give Vegeta one of his own. He is the deuteragonist after all.

            On another note, I don’t like the idea of Gohan possibly getting eliminated next week.

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            Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

            Postby MajinMan » Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:45 pm

            Told a better story than last week, but sadly did not look nearly as good. I like the side fights a lot and wish we got to see more of them. Thankfully next episode it seems like we’re getting a bigger focus on Dyspo. The tactics Goku used against Jiren were great and he almost pulled off the upset, but Jiren wasn’t having any of that.

            Vegeta’s power up, while it makes sense because of the whole “limit breaking” theme we have in this arc, looks like complete trash. I hate the design. I don’t know if it was just the episode’s animation, but he had like no neck and was roided up for no reason. I also didn’t like the weird blue eyes he got. This is probably the ugliest new “form” we’ve gotten in Super. Kaioken Blue looks so much better.
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            Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

            Postby emperior » Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:45 pm

            BlueBasilisk wrote:
            emperior wrote:I would prefer to see something more "Saiyan". Like Vegeta challenging the King in a battle and winning to become the King, or doing something to show his worth as the King. But if he revives them all they will probably want him as their King regardless of his status, character or power.

            I've been thinking it would be nice if they went a step further and rather than become king, Vegeta becomes the protector god of the Saiyan race and passed down through the legends of his people.

            Basically become the "God of all Saiyans"? That would be great. They could build him a statue and revere him for his strength, pride and courage. Which means Vegeta could also go around calling himself the God of all Saiyans, which would be badass considering Dragon Ball is all about the Gods now.
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            Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

            Postby Asura » Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:48 pm

            PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:I think the art and animation is generally better than last week.


            Have you hit your head? Or perhaps had too much to drink? I don’t see how anyone could logically come to this conclusion.


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