Post-hiatus-news: What series do you want next?

[Michsi]

I don't understand the people who want new Dragon Ball content and at the same time want the series to remain in the same stagnant time period, reusing the same characters and rehashing the same arcs over and over again. If you're so adamant about keeping Goku & co around and can't stand to see new characters at the helm, yet you also acknowledge that the series isn't going anywhere new at this point, then why not just reboot the series? The original Dragon Ball movies are basically reboots.

I'm actually all for it. I'd love to see a more modern take on OG DB, maybe even try to use that older rounder style from the Minoru Maeda period. Didn't an animator fro Studio Trigger draw Bulma once? That looked neat too.
The only thing that I'm wary of is that Toei wouldn't be able to pull it off successfully, not with the current production mess.

[BWri]

Yeah, but if everyone on Earth can do all this crazy shit, it kind of loses the magic in my opinion.

I see what you mean but even if everyone can use ki, the main cast will typically be far above them. It just opens it up for more villains, allies, etc to be relevant in the story and instead of powerful people coming out of nowhere, it leaves it open for there to always be powerful people.

That still kind of ruins the mystique, the Z Fighters are these groups of unsung hero super fighters from all walks of life, Earth’s last resort special forces, if everyone and their mother is a super fighter, regardless if they are above the rest it still ruins the humble charm that having only them as the fighters has. It’s uncomfortable to me and it feels out of place.

Yeah and you'd still have that core group of Z fighters who can handle all the big threats. What the concept of spreading ki knowledge out into Earth's populace does is effectively make the story more like Dragon Ball was near the beginning. Remember that first tournament when just about everyone was a dangerous fighter that you had to look out for, then fast forward to Z when every single non-main cast human is a joke and even DB era fighters like Nam and Giran seem OP compared to those jokes like Jewel and Chicken Man.

I look at it like this. Gohan's book Groundbreaking Science produces more DB, Saiyan, and lower level Namek saga fighters. The general public is still much weaker than that, since most wouldn't be fighters. But the elite fighters are higher and the core cast is much much higher. There's different tiers of power that would still make the core cast special. Then there's villains out there to match. Like a whole galactic army of resurfaced Planet Trade Soldiers, demons, etc.

[Master Xar]

I see what you mean but even if everyone can use ki, the main cast will typically be far above them. It just opens it up for more villains, allies, etc to be relevant in the story and instead of powerful people coming out of nowhere, it leaves it open for there to always be powerful people.

That still kind of ruins the mystique, the Z Fighters are these groups of unsung hero super fighters from all walks of life, Earth’s last resort special forces, if everyone and their mother is a super fighter, regardless if they are above the rest it still ruins the humble charm that having only them as the fighters has. It’s uncomfortable to me and it feels out of place.

Yeah and you'd still have that core group of Z fighters who can handle all the big threats. What the concept of spreading ki knowledge out into Earth's populace does is effectively make the story more like Dragon Ball was near the beginning. Remember that first tournament when just about everyone was a dangerous fighter that you had to look out for, then fast forward to Z when every single non-main cast human is a joke and even DB era fighters like Nam and Giran seem OP compared to those jokes like Jewel and Chicken Man.

I look at it like this. Gohan's book Groundbreaking Science produces more DB, Saiyan, and lower level Namek saga fighters. The general public is still much weaker than that, since most wouldn't be fighters. But the elite fighters are higher and the core cast is much much higher. There's different tiers of power that would still make the core cast special. Then there's villains out there to match. Like a whole galactic army of resurfaced Planet Trade Soldiers, demons, etc.

no what you said in the previous comment was that everyone knows what ki is or at least has an understanding of it that is what I replied to. Second off even with your idea it still contradicts several things, Gohan using a book to teach several thousands of people advanced martial arts? No. Ki isn’t this meta energy like emperior said it’s rooted in martial arts not a scientific thing you can just sit down and read to understand, Videl is one example of that, it’s really weird how everyone complains how the “Super Saiyan Bargain Sale” goes around, but when people talk about how there should be hundreds upon thousands of Super Fighters running around its cool...

Third, what you are suggesting doesn’t make it feel like “everyone is a threat” in the beginning of Dragonball you just said that they would be way weaker than all the Z-Fighters so what’s the point? It also doesn’t make them a threat so no sudden threats come up either unless they come from out of nowhere... like we’re doing now. It would have complaints of “fodders” like the current TOP is now. If they aren’t strong, in this fandom they aren’t worth the time, and if you make them too strong too fast you’ll just piss the fandom off even more.

Regardless how you look at it, just like the next generation story, having more Super Fighters around is just a bad idea, even the Time Patrollers in Xenoverse are questionable if they were suddenly canon in the series.

[shadowmaria]

Time Patrol Trunks series would be best, I think

[BWri]

That still kind of ruins the mystique, the Z Fighters are these groups of unsung hero super fighters from all walks of life, Earth’s last resort special forces, if everyone and their mother is a super fighter, regardless if they are above the rest it still ruins the humble charm that having only them as the fighters has. It’s uncomfortable to me and it feels out of place.

Yeah and you'd still have that core group of Z fighters who can handle all the big threats. What the concept of spreading ki knowledge out into Earth's populace does is effectively make the story more like Dragon Ball was near the beginning. Remember that first tournament when just about everyone was a dangerous fighter that you had to look out for, then fast forward to Z when every single non-main cast human is a joke and even DB era fighters like Nam and Giran seem OP compared to those jokes like Jewel and Chicken Man.

I look at it like this. Gohan's book Groundbreaking Science produces more DB, Saiyan, and lower level Namek saga fighters. The general public is still much weaker than that, since most wouldn't be fighters. But the elite fighters are higher and the core cast is much much higher. There's different tiers of power that would still make the core cast special. Then there's villains out there to match. Like a whole galactic army of resurfaced Planet Trade Soldiers, demons, etc.

no what you said in the previous comment was that everyone knows what ki is or at least has an understanding of it that is what I replied to.

Somehow you misunderstood what I said. I spelled it all out though. The general public would all know about ki, and most people would use it in various ways, but they'd be Videl tier or below. I spelled out the tiers already too. Main Cast > Elite fighters > Vast Majority of Fighters (DB, Sayain arc tier) >>>>>>> General Public >> DBZ/DBS era general public (who don't even know ki exists).

Second off even with your idea it still contradicts several things, Gohan using a book to teach several thousands of people advanced martial arts? No. Ki isn’t this meta energy like emperior said it’s rooted in martial arts not a scientific thing you can just sit down and read to understand, Videl is one example of that, it’s really weird how everyone complains how the “Super Saiyan Bargain Sale” goes around, but when people talk about how there should be hundreds upon thousands of Super Fighters running around its cool...

Again, there wouldn't be thousands of Super Fighters, but really our definitions of Super Fighters may differ. Anyways, this would be directly opposed to being a bargain sale because Earthlings, Namekians, & Saiyans would TRAIN to get these powers, not hit the genetic lottery and break established lore. Nothing in DB suggests that a normal human can't learn ki if they applied themselves. Look at Videl.

Another point is not everyone would use ki manipulation for martial arts. Some would use it for sports, some for medicinal purposes, and others for scientific purposes. Remember, Gero was able to create devices to manipulate, absorb, and amplify ki with genetic manipulation and mechanics.

Third, what you are suggesting doesn’t make it feel like “everyone is a threat” in the beginning of Dragonball you just said that they would be way weaker than all the Z-Fighters so what’s the point?

You don't seem to understand the premise at all. The point being that this would be a reset of sorts. So no inflated power levels at the start of the show. That way you can build the main cast in a well paced way, instead of having to have them jump to SSG or SSB right away. And I already explained the tiers. There is no contradiction in what I said. Read it again, slower this time.

It also doesn’t make them a threat so no sudden threats come up either unless they come from out of nowhere... like we’re doing now.

What are you saying? I explained that there are different tiers of fighters. If more people know about ki and are able to use it, then the odds of a potent threat increases.

It would have complaints of “fodders” like the current TOP is now. If they aren’t strong, in this fandom they aren’t worth the time, and if you make them too strong too fast you’ll just piss the fandom off even more.

I don't understand how you came to this conclusion. I'm reluctant to compare, but think of it like Naruto if you've ever seen that. Nearly every character in the show is proficient in combat and has some awesome ability, but there are clear divisions of power. Not everyone is going to be as strong and important as Naruto, Sasuke, Kakashi, etc. but each has a purpose in the show and a fanbase of their own. DB was the same way with the first two tournaments, before Goku and Co. got massively stronger than the other "normal" fighters, but those normal guys in DB like Nam and King Chapa were pretty strong. Judging from the power they displayed, it's likely that they knew some form of ki manipulation, even if it was basic or fragmented.

Regardless how you look at it, just like the next generation story, having more Super Fighters around is just a bad idea, even the Time Patrollers in Xenoverse are questionable if they were suddenly canon in the series.

To you perhaps and to others with similar tastes to your own, but I'm interested and I've seen others on this thread interested and if written well I'm confident that most people, including yourself would be interested unless they were just being spiteful.

[majinwarman]

That still kind of ruins the mystique, the Z Fighters are these groups of unsung hero super fighters from all walks of life, Earth’s last resort special forces, if everyone and their mother is a super fighter, regardless if they are above the rest it still ruins the humble charm that having only them as the fighters has. It’s uncomfortable to me and it feels out of place.

I agree with you. If everyone on Earth had powers then it would make Z fighters useless. It's like they wouldn't need them anymore. It would really take away from the story.

Ki is a martial arts concept. It would be not only lame, but very stupid if suddenly every earthling learned how to fly and fire ki blasts. It's not like in the real world everyone can do what Bruce Lee could do, or any other expert martial artist can do.

I think that is what makes Dragon Ball more special than Naruto where everyone is a ninja.

[Ilikepictures-meh]

I agree with you. If everyone on Earth had powers then it would make Z fighters useless. It's like they wouldn't need them anymore. It would really take away from the story.

Ki is a martial arts concept. It would be not only lame, but very stupid if suddenly every earthling learned how to fly and fire ki blasts. It's not like in the real world everyone can do what Bruce Lee could do, or any other expert martial artist can do.

I think that is what makes Dragon Ball more special than Naruto where everyone is a ninja.

I think that's delusional, but to each his/her own.

Also trying to compare a children's cartoon, especially this one to real life is one of the biggest examples of stupidity I read on here.

[emperior]

I agree with you. If everyone on Earth had powers then it would make Z fighters useless. It's like they wouldn't need them anymore. It would really take away from the story.

Ki is a martial arts concept. It would be not only lame, but very stupid if suddenly every earthling learned how to fly and fire ki blasts. It's not like in the real world everyone can do what Bruce Lee could do, or any other expert martial artist can do.

I think that is what makes Dragon Ball more special than Naruto where everyone is a ninja.

And Toriyama’s idea was that maybe in the mountains there live crazy strong people, who can do crazy shit. I would be seriously disappointed if that Ki Book DBO thing happens in canon. In the game they used it as an excuse as to why there are so many warriors in the game, which is why it made sense there.

[Master Xar]

Yeah and you'd still have that core group of Z fighters who can handle all the big threats. What the concept of spreading ki knowledge out into Earth's populace does is effectively make the story more like Dragon Ball was near the beginning. Remember that first tournament when just about everyone was a dangerous fighter that you had to look out for, then fast forward to Z when every single non-main cast human is a joke and even DB era fighters like Nam and Giran seem OP compared to those jokes like Jewel and Chicken Man.

I look at it like this. Gohan's book Groundbreaking Science produces more DB, Saiyan, and lower level Namek saga fighters. The general public is still much weaker than that, since most wouldn't be fighters. But the elite fighters are higher and the core cast is much much higher. There's different tiers of power that would still make the core cast special. Then there's villains out there to match. Like a whole galactic army of resurfaced Planet Trade Soldiers, demons, etc.

no what you said in the previous comment was that everyone knows what ki is or at least has an understanding of it that is what I replied to.

Somehow you misunderstood what I said. I spelled it all out though. The general public would all know about ki, and most people would use it in various ways, but they'd be Videl tier or below. I spelled out the tiers already too. Main Cast > Elite fighters > Vast Majority of Fighters (DB, Sayain arc tier) >>>>>>> General Public >> DBZ/DBS era general public (who don't even know ki exists).

Second off even with your idea it still contradicts several things, Gohan using a book to teach several thousands of people advanced martial arts? No. Ki isn’t this meta energy like emperior said it’s rooted in martial arts not a scientific thing you can just sit down and read to understand, Videl is one example of that, it’s really weird how everyone complains how the “Super Saiyan Bargain Sale” goes around, but when people talk about how there should be hundreds upon thousands of Super Fighters running around its cool...

Again, there wouldn't be thousands of Super Fighters, but really our definitions of Super Fighters may differ. Anyways, this would be directly opposed to being a bargain sale because Earthlings, Namekians, & Saiyans would TRAIN to get these powers, not hit the genetic lottery and break established lore. Nothing in DB suggests that a normal human can't learn ki if they applied themselves. Look at Videl.

Another point is not everyone would use ki manipulation for martial arts. Some would use it for sports, some for medicinal purposes, and others for scientific purposes. Remember, Gero was able to create devices to manipulate, absorb, and amplify ki with genetic manipulation and mechanics.

Third, what you are suggesting doesn’t make it feel like “everyone is a threat” in the beginning of Dragonball you just said that they would be way weaker than all the Z-Fighters so what’s the point?

You don't seem to understand the premise at all. The point being that this would be a reset of sorts. So no inflated power levels at the start of the show. That way you can build the main cast in a well paced way, instead of having to have them jump to SSG or SSB right away. And I already explained the tiers. There is no contradiction in what I said. Read it again, slower this time.

It also doesn’t make them a threat so no sudden threats come up either unless they come from out of nowhere... like we’re doing now.

What are you saying? I explained that there are different tiers of fighters. If more people know about ki and are able to use it, then the odds of a potent threat increases.

It would have complaints of “fodders” like the current TOP is now. If they aren’t strong, in this fandom they aren’t worth the time, and if you make them too strong too fast you’ll just piss the fandom off even more.

I don't understand how you came to this conclusion. I'm reluctant to compare, but think of it like Naruto if you've ever seen that. Nearly every character in the show is proficient in combat and has some awesome ability, but there are clear divisions of power. Not everyone is going to be as strong and important as Naruto, Sasuke, Kakashi, etc. but each has a purpose in the show and a fanbase of their own. DB was the same way with the first two tournaments, before Goku and Co. got massively stronger than the other "normal" fighters, but those normal guys in DB like Nam and King Chapa were pretty strong. Judging from the power they displayed, it's likely that they knew some form of ki manipulation, even if it was basic or fragmented.

Regardless how you look at it, just like the next generation story, having more Super Fighters around is just a bad idea, even the Time Patrollers in Xenoverse are questionable if they were suddenly canon in the series.

To you perhaps and to others with similar tastes to your own, but I'm interested and I've seen others on this thread interested and if written well I'm confident that most people, including yourself would be interested unless they were just being spiteful.

1.) It’s not a bargain sale for working hard it’s a bargain sale in the case that suddenly everyone knows ki when it is a sacred thing that only few can learn or are genetically gifted to learn it from the jump like Saiyans, if billions of people knew this the mystique of it is lost, if billions of people know about a secret agency and all it’s secrets it’s not a secret agency anymore now is it? Videl only proves my point, she was actually fairly strong for a human even before ki training so it was fairly quick for her, she still needed a teacher, not a book and not like how a random guy with a shotgun can learn it. It would only make logical sense for thousands of fighters to pop up if they knew about ki, if we had it in our world with the routine crises that the Dragonball world faces we’d have MILLIONS of people training to fight, I was being forgiving with a thousand, in worldbuilding your characters have to have logic for how things work in that world, plenty of people would be all for busting their asses to be strong ki fighters whether out of professional fighting or feeling like they need to.

To put it shortly: if everyone knows ki and knows about the crises that happen routinely it makes no sense for there to only be a remote few fighters that would go out of there way to do it, we’d have militaries, veterans, assassins, and more running around.

Androids. Do. Not. Use. Ki. This has been established for years that ki is not their energy source, also using ki for mundane stuff like sports and science (the very thing it is not..) is lame, once again ki is a martial art, you are basically just making Ki magic, which it isn’t, it’s for fighting and situational things revolving around fighting, it wouldn’t be ki anymore if it was used like an everyday thing. In any case, ki as a martial art shouldn’t be spread around like wildfire nor should it be used like an everyday thing ESPECIALLY the latter. You are essentially trying to make Dragonball rip off Naruto’s society, that’s unoriginal.

2.) You didn’t say the premise, you just said there would be more people knowing ki around the world, you said nothing about nerfing the Z Fighters. You said the tiers in regard to the elite fighters being below the Main Cast, but in what case? Are they a little bit weaker? (which would piss off plenty as it would feel rushed and make the cast and all that they’ve been through irrelevant to these noob fighters) or a lot weaker (fodder and make establishing them pointless), either or would piss off a big chunk, not to mention this whole paragraph oozes condescending, we are having regular conversation, knock it off. I’ve read very clearly thank you very much.

3.) you just said the main cast (I assume you mean Goku and Co. given that you mention SSJG and SSJB level) would be far above the elites and general public, you’re changing what you’re saying more and more, it’s not a balanced system if they can catch up to the main cast through natural training or means. If they aren’t far above the elites then it feels like their training and current power is worth crap, if they are far below them than they are pointless fodder, if they come out of nowhere it’s the same as what we’ve been doing, it’s a catch 22.

4.) once again with the condescending you clearly knew my point, you’re trying to make it sound like it’s incoherent babble when it isn’t and is clearly legible, Stop. Also this is Dragonball not Naruto, you’re trying to make it something that it’s not. Nam and King Chappa didn’t do anything big. Yeah and we can do that with the cast we already have and not introducing random nobodies no one could give less of a fuck about, the current TOP made them all contribute in some way and it’s more than fine with how it is now if they involved the main cast more like how they did this arc and Fighter Z is doing or introducing a new cast member like they’ve been doing.

It feels like you’ve been watching to much Naruto or Fairy Tail, in Dragonball ki isn’t just this hand me down thing that’s passed around like skittles, powers and abilities and how they are established to work in world building is essential, ki is not a system in Dragonball, Toriyama designed it like “who knows what random people out in the sticks can know” it’s meant to be that there are only few who know it from the jump and that most of the Z Fighters are guys that live out in the middle of nowhere, heck it’s why Goku is a hick.

And I’m more than confident plenty of people especially those that are big fans of the original Dragonballs mythology and lore would despise ki being a societal system and being treated like esper/science powers, this isn’t Fairy Tail, it isn’t Naruto, it isn’t the Soul Society in Bleach, it’s not a generic anime where you can learn this sacred energy in a fucking SCHOOL or in a BOOK, it’s for people who put in the work and it fits for only THOSE groups of people, the Z Fighters.

[Kaboom]

I think that's delusional, but to each his/her own.
Also trying to compare a children's cartoon, especially this one to real life is one of the biggest examples of stupidity I read on here.

Please don't post this way.

[BWri]

1.) It’s not a bargain sale for working hard it’s a bargain sale in the case that suddenly everyone knows ki when it is a sacred thing that only few can learn or are genetically gifted to learn it from the jump like Saiyans, if billions of people knew this the mystique of it is lost, if billions of people know about a secret agency and all it’s secrets it’s not a secret agency anymore now is it?

That's just it, ki isn't some sacred thing that only a select few have. Literally everyone has ki. Farmer with a shotgun had ki. The only thing that prevents one from properly using that ki is knowledge. So from that point of view ki has already lost it's mystique. As soon as random aliens with no interest in spirituality were shown to use it, ki lost it's mystique.

Videl only proves my point, she was actually fairly strong for a human even before ki training so it was fairly quick for her, she still needed a teacher, not a book and not like how a random guy with a shotgun can learn it.

Yeah, and how long did it take her to learn that, a few hours, days? If someone dedicated themselves to it for an even longer period of time, surely they'd have even better results. There's no genetic lock, only dedication and knowledge.

It would only make logical sense for thousands of fighters to pop up if they knew about ki, if we had it in our world with the routine crises that the Dragonball world faces we’d have MILLIONS of people training to fight, I was being forgiving with a thousand, in worldbuilding your characters have to have logic for how things work in that world, plenty of people would be all for busting their asses to be strong ki fighters whether out of professional fighting or feeling like they need to.


To put it shortly: if everyone knows ki and knows about the crises that happen routinely it makes no sense for there to only be a remote few fighters that would go out of there way to do it, we’d have militaries, veterans, assassins, and more running around.

You already explained yourself that not everyone would be proficient at ki use and I myself already mentioned the tiers so this point is already debunked. Not everyone would be able to fight the elite tiers even if they all ganged up. That would be left to the main cast and by main cast I mean the central protagonist who would be special in some way like Goku and crew were.

Androids. Do. Not. Use. Ki. This has been established for years that ki is not their energy source,

Cell uses ki. #19 and #20 use ki. Not sure what #17 and #18 use because it's never been explained but it's likely based on ki.

also using ki for mundane stuff like sports and science (the very thing it is not..) is lame,

Okaaaaay ...

once again ki is a martial art, you are basically just making Ki magic, which it isn’t, it’s for fighting and situational things revolving around fighting,

This isn't true. Ki has quite a few facets to it and while it's mostly tied to martial arts, it's not exclusively tied to it. There's a few places where you can research what ki does in the Dragon Ball world. It's very fascinating.

it wouldn’t be ki anymore if it was used like an everyday thing. In any case, ki as a martial art shouldn’t be spread around like wildfire nor should it be used like an everyday thing ESPECIALLY the latter.

Again, everyone already has ki. Farmer with a shotgun had a measureable power level and scouters measure ki.

You are essentially trying to make Dragonball rip off Naruto’s society, that’s unoriginal.

That's not at all what I'm trying to do. I'm expanding on an idea that series creator Akira Toriyama likely contributed to or created himself. And now I'm defending this amazing idea from someone who can't see the genius of it.

2.) You didn’t say the premise, you just said there would be more people knowing ki around the world, you said nothing about nerfing the Z Fighters.

Somehow we're having two entirely different conversations. You're not understanding what I'm saying. And I said nothing about nerfing the Z Fighters. I'm not talking about the Z fighters, my whole point was about a new cast, like the one from that DBO video I posted. That's how this current comment string started. When I say main cast, I'm talking about that generation which is like hundreds or thousands of years away from the current cast.

You said the tiers in regard to the elite fighters being below the Main Cast, but in what case? Are they a little bit weaker? (which would piss off plenty as it would feel rushed and make the cast and all that they’ve been through irrelevant to these noob fighters) or a lot weaker (fodder and make establishing them pointless), either or would piss off a big chunk,

Do you know the mechanics of shonen anime? That would help to understand all of this. Basically let's take that scale I made. Main Cast > Elite fighters > Vast Majority of Fighters (DB, Sayain arc tier) >>>>>>> General Public >> DBZ/DBS era general public (who don't even know ki exists). It's basic as I only took a few seconds to think about it, but it works. Let's break it down.

Main cast = the new generation of heroes, separated from the DBS cast by many many years. Comprised of humans, Saiyans, Namekians, and Majins. Saiyan blood is so diluted that they have to work almost as hard as the other races, but they still have genetic advantages. Their potentials are high so their power can span from Saiyan saga levels on beyond.

Elites = the high tier fighters that the main cast has trouble with. Elite fighters can of course train and get stronger. I think of these as the tougher people in the later arc tournaments or high level people in a new Planet Trade Organization, but really it's just those slightly weaker than the main cast, but much stronger than the majority of fighters who've studied Groundbreaking Science. Likely Namek saga level and beyond.

Majority of fighters = generic fighters who've studied groundbreaking, but lack the talent, work ethic, training, or potential to go higher. Likely early DB to late Saiyan saga tier. Includes martial artists and elite athletes.

New General Public = A general public knowledgeable about ki with some able to use it in their every day lives in mundane ways. Everyone has ki, but it takes a well studied mind to use even basic aspects of it. Even knowing about ki makes this general public greater than those in the DBS timeline. But only a small percentage of the general public can use it, because most are too impatient/stupid. The health and fitness industry has greatly benefited from basic understanding of ki.

So if this hypothetical new show worked like a typical shonen, the main cast would start off somewhere between middle of DB tier to early Saiyan saga. At least that's where I'd have them, stronger than the previous cast was at the start to show that they know what they're doing, but weak enough that we have time to watch them grow. The first arc might be an adventure arc where we meet more "majority" tier fighters and maybe all these fighters are gearing up for the tournament. In the tournament all the majority tier fighters put up good fights, but the main cast brushes them aside like Goku, Krillin, and Roshi did in DB, with some of the majority tier fighters pushing the main cast to the next level. The main cast must then fight one another and we see just how much they've improved. They push one another even more.

Then there's maybe another adventure, new villains to match the main cast and then we move unto the elites. Now that the main cast is high tier Saiyan saga level, they can move on to the weakest of the elites, the early Namek saga tiers. And there's so many tiers of power in the namek saga that you can have many many levels of elites. Elites can get stronger to match the heroes but the heroes are usually ahead. Elites are not the main villains mind you, but the henchmen of the main villains. Main villains are usually main cast tier and above. That's pretty much it. You could introduce more tiers as the show goes on but the main cast would remain some of the strongest beings in the series, leaving behind the majority tier and general public. It honestly wouldn't be much different from Dragon Ball, only imagine if every character in the DB/DBZ tournaments knew how to use ki.

not to mention this whole paragraph oozes condescending, we are having regular conversation, knock it off. I’ve read very clearly thank you very much.

I'll admit to being frustrated at having my words be so misconstrued. Regardless, you're right and I apologize. We're here to interact and ultimately better understand one another, so I won't stoop so low again. Thanks for pointing that out.

3.) you just said the main cast (I assume you mean Goku and Co. given that you mention SSJG and SSJB level) would be far above the elites and general public, you’re changing what you’re saying more and more,

I can't help but feel that you didn't see my initial post that started this comment string. I posted a video about a new generation of fighters participating in TB tournament in DBO. The climax of the tournament was a Super Saiyan and Namekian having and epic ki clash. Everything I mentioned was regarding a new generation such as the one in DBO. I only use the current cast to compare levels of power with this theoretical new cast.

it’s not a balanced system if they can catch up to the main cast through natural training or means. If they aren’t far above the elites then it feels like their training and current power is worth crap, if they are far below them than they are pointless fodder, if they come out of nowhere it’s the same as what we’ve been doing, it’s a catch 22.

Since this appears to be a misunderstanding, I'll just leave it. I'm not referring to Goku and the others when I say main cast. If you think this still applies to what we're talking about, let me know and I'll comment on it.

4.) once again with the condescending you clearly knew my point, you’re trying to make it sound like it’s incoherent babble when it isn’t and is clearly legible, Stop.

Our communication styles must be different or something. Like above, I don't understand how you're interpreting my words in the way you're interpreting them. I'm not sure if it's a failure on my part, yours, or somewhere in between.

Also this is Dragonball not Naruto, you’re trying to make it something that it’s not. Nam and King Chappa didn’t do anything big.

They were strong humans with power comparable to the main cast. They were weaker yes, but strong enough to be considered a threat. Nam even gave Goku, a ki user, a lot of trouble. Back then, with so many strong fighters around, DB felt like a world where countless fighters like that could be found. The later we get into the series, the more it feels like fighters strong enough to be a threat are just introduced into the story for plot based reasons. Early DB was actually very similar to Naruto. Moreso than late DB anyway.

Yeah and we can do that with the cast we already have and not introducing random nobodies no one could give less of a fuck about,

The main cast is stale. I love them to death but the writers don't have a lot for them to do anymore. They have been reusing character arcs and techniques since the beginning of Super. I would love if they actually did do more with them, but as it stands, that staleness combined with the insane power bloat and chronic bad writing make the current cast really disappointing despite how awesome they are and should be. The power bloat is what ruined these last two tournaments.

If they use the main cast in more interesting ways, like how they expanded on character interactions in DB Fighterz, or created unique scenarios in Xenoverse then they'd at least have more to do.

the current TOP made them all contribute in some way and it’s more than fine with how it is now if they involved the main cast more like how they did this arc and Fighter Z is doing or introducing a new cast member like they’ve been doing.

Yeah, some way aka fan service. Characters like Tien got totally shafted, and that's part of my point, if power levels are so bloated at this point that these characters are only good for so little, then a reboot is in order, hard or soft, it doesn't matter. Power bloat is killing this series. It's clear they have nothing else for them to do really. Look at Piccolo and Gohan in this tournament. Two fan favorite characters and yet their participation in the arc has been meh. They did stuff sure, but nothing groundbreaking. They've already had their character arcs and now they just kind of exist in this franchise. I'd rather they go away than be abused any more because the writer doesn't want them to be strong anymore.

It feels like you’ve been watching to much Naruto or Fairy Tail, in Dragonball ki isn’t just this hand me down thing that’s passed around like skittles, powers and abilities and how they are established to work in world building is essential, ki is not a system in Dragonball, Toriyama designed it like “who knows what random people out in the sticks can know” it’s meant to be that there are only few who know it from the jump and that most of the Z Fighters are guys that live out in the middle of nowhere, heck it’s why Goku is a hick.

I already explained that every person in the DB world has ki. It makes more since here than those other shows. I don't watch Fairy Tail btw, so please pal, no condescending assumptions here. That's only fair, right? And that sounds an awful lot like headcanon, bud. I don't believe a limiting condition to learning ki is living in the middle of nowhere.

And I’m more than confident plenty of people especially those that are big fans of the original Dragonballs mythology and lore would despise ki being a societal system and being treated like esper/science powers, this isn’t Fairy Tail, it isn’t Naruto, it isn’t the Soul Society in Bleach, it’s not a generic anime where you can learn this sacred energy in a fucking SCHOOL or in a BOOK, it’s for people who put in the work and it fits for only THOSE groups of people, the Z Fighters.

No one would care either way. If the show is good, it's good. People don't JUST watch DB for Goku. As a matter of fact, throughout my entire childhood I hated Goku. I only started liking him as I became an adult. People watch DB for the flavor and if the new show captures that flavor, same people will watch, and even more will join because they won't feel the need to watch previous DB shows just to catch up. If they could attain the classic DB flavor and combine it with new concepts to keep things fresh and make make the world feel truly limitless like DB used to feel, they will have created one of the greatest shows EVER.

And again, ki is not special. God ki is special. Ki is inherent in every living being (apparently) so all that's needed to unlock its use is EDUCATION and TRAINING. Nothing else stands in the way.

[Hawk9211]

[spoiler]

1.) It’s not a bargain sale for working hard it’s a bargain sale in the case that suddenly everyone knows ki when it is a sacred thing that only few can learn or are genetically gifted to learn it from the jump like Saiyans, if billions of people knew this the mystique of it is lost, if billions of people know about a secret agency and all it’s secrets it’s not a secret agency anymore now is it?

That's just it, ki isn't some sacred thing that only a select few have. Literally everyone has ki. Farmer with a shotgun had ki. The only thing that prevents one from properly using that ki is knowledge. So from that point of view ki has already lost it's mystique. As soon as random aliens with no interest in spirituality were shown to use it, ki lost it's mystique.

Videl only proves my point, she was actually fairly strong for a human even before ki training so it was fairly quick for her, she still needed a teacher, not a book and not like how a random guy with a shotgun can learn it.

Yeah, and how long did it take her to learn that, a few hours, days? If someone dedicated themselves to it for an even longer period of time, surely they'd have even better results. There's no genetic lock, only dedication and knowledge.

It would only make logical sense for thousands of fighters to pop up if they knew about ki, if we had it in our world with the routine crises that the Dragonball world faces we’d have MILLIONS of people training to fight, I was being forgiving with a thousand, in worldbuilding your characters have to have logic for how things work in that world, plenty of people would be all for busting their asses to be strong ki fighters whether out of professional fighting or feeling like they need to.


To put it shortly: if everyone knows ki and knows about the crises that happen routinely it makes no sense for there to only be a remote few fighters that would go out of there way to do it, we’d have militaries, veterans, assassins, and more running around.

You already explained yourself that not everyone would be proficient at ki use and I myself already mentioned the tiers so this point is already debunked. Not everyone would be able to fight the elite tiers even if they all ganged up. That would be left to the main cast and by main cast I mean the central protagonist who would be special in some way like Goku and crew were.

Androids. Do. Not. Use. Ki. This has been established for years that ki is not their energy source,

Cell uses ki. #19 and #20 use ki. Not sure what #17 and #18 use because it's never been explained but it's likely based on ki.

also using ki for mundane stuff like sports and science (the very thing it is not..) is lame,

Okaaaaay ...

once again ki is a martial art, you are basically just making Ki magic, which it isn’t, it’s for fighting and situational things revolving around fighting,

This isn't true. Ki has quite a few facets to it and while it's mostly tied to martial arts, it's not exclusively tied to it. There's a few places where you can research what ki does in the Dragon Ball world. It's very fascinating.

it wouldn’t be ki anymore if it was used like an everyday thing. In any case, ki as a martial art shouldn’t be spread around like wildfire nor should it be used like an everyday thing ESPECIALLY the latter.

Again, everyone already has ki. Farmer with a shotgun had a measureable power level and scouters measure ki.

You are essentially trying to make Dragonball rip off Naruto’s society, that’s unoriginal.

That's not at all what I'm trying to do. I'm expanding on an idea that series creator Akira Toriyama likely contributed to or created himself. And now I'm defending this amazing idea from someone who can't see the genius of it.

2.) You didn’t say the premise, you just said there would be more people knowing ki around the world, you said nothing about nerfing the Z Fighters.

Somehow we're having two entirely different conversations. You're not understanding what I'm saying. And I said nothing about nerfing the Z Fighters. I'm not talking about the Z fighters, my whole point was about a new cast, like the one from that DBO video I posted. That's how this current comment string started. When I say main cast, I'm talking about that generation which is like hundreds or thousands of years away from the current cast.

You said the tiers in regard to the elite fighters being below the Main Cast, but in what case? Are they a little bit weaker? (which would piss off plenty as it would feel rushed and make the cast and all that they’ve been through irrelevant to these noob fighters) or a lot weaker (fodder and make establishing them pointless), either or would piss off a big chunk,

Do you know the mechanics of shonen anime? That would help to understand all of this. Basically let's take that scale I made. Main Cast > Elite fighters > Vast Majority of Fighters (DB, Sayain arc tier) >>>>>>> General Public >> DBZ/DBS era general public (who don't even know ki exists). It's basic as I only took a few seconds to think about it, but it works. Let's break it down.

Main cast = the new generation of heroes, separated from the DBS cast by many many years. Comprised of humans, Saiyans, Namekians, and Majins. Saiyan blood is so diluted that they have to work almost as hard as the other races, but they still have genetic advantages. Their potentials are high so their power can span from Saiyan saga levels on beyond.

Elites = the high tier fighters that the main cast has trouble with. Elite fighters can of course train and get stronger. I think of these as the tougher people in the later arc tournaments or high level people in a new Planet Trade Organization, but really it's just those slightly weaker than the main cast, but much stronger than the majority of fighters who've studied Groundbreaking Science. Likely Namek saga level and beyond.

Majority of fighters = generic fighters who've studied groundbreaking, but lack the talent, work ethic, training, or potential to go higher. Likely early DB to late Saiyan saga tier. Includes martial artists and elite athletes.

New General Public = A general public knowledgeable about ki with some able to use it in their every day lives in mundane ways. Everyone has ki, but it takes a well studied mind to use even basic aspects of it. Even knowing about ki makes this general public greater than those in the DBS timeline. But only a small percentage of the general public can use it, because most are too impatient/stupid. The health and fitness industry has greatly benefited from basic understanding of ki.

So if this hypothetical new show worked like a typical shonen, the main cast would start off somewhere between middle of DB tier to early Saiyan saga. At least that's where I'd have them, stronger than the previous cast was at the start to show that they know what they're doing, but weak enough that we have time to watch them grow. The first arc might be an adventure arc where we meet more "majority" tier fighters and maybe all these fighters are gearing up for the tournament. In the tournament all the majority tier fighters put up good fights, but the main cast brushes them aside like Goku, Krillin, and Roshi did in DB, with some of the majority tier fighters pushing the main cast to the next level. The main cast must then fight one another and we see just how much they've improved. They push one another even more.

Then there's maybe another adventure, new villains to match the main cast and then we move unto the elites. Now that the main cast is high tier Saiyan saga level, they can move on to the weakest of the elites, the early Namek saga tiers. And there's so many tiers of power in the namek saga that you can have many many levels of elites. Elites can get stronger to match the heroes but the heroes are usually ahead. Elites are not the main villains mind you, but the henchmen of the main villains. Main villains are usually main cast tier and above. That's pretty much it. You could introduce more tiers as the show goes on but the main cast would remain some of the strongest beings in the series, leaving behind the majority tier and general public. It honestly wouldn't be much different from Dragon Ball, only imagine if every character in the DB/DBZ tournaments knew how to use ki.

not to mention this whole paragraph oozes condescending, we are having regular conversation, knock it off. I’ve read very clearly thank you very much.

I'll admit to being frustrated at having my words be so misconstrued. Regardless, you're right and I apologize. We're here to interact and ultimately better understand one another, so I won't stoop so low again. Thanks for pointing that out.

3.) you just said the main cast (I assume you mean Goku and Co. given that you mention SSJG and SSJB level) would be far above the elites and general public, you’re changing what you’re saying more and more,

I can't help but feel that you didn't see my initial post that started this comment string. I posted a video about a new generation of fighters participating in TB tournament in DBO. The climax of the tournament was a Super Saiyan and Namekian having and epic ki clash. Everything I mentioned was regarding a new generation such as the one in DBO. I only use the current cast to compare levels of power with this theoretical new cast.

it’s not a balanced system if they can catch up to the main cast through natural training or means. If they aren’t far above the elites then it feels like their training and current power is worth crap, if they are far below them than they are pointless fodder, if they come out of nowhere it’s the same as what we’ve been doing, it’s a catch 22.

Since this appears to be a misunderstanding, I'll just leave it. I'm not referring to Goku and the others when I say main cast. If you think this still applies to what we're talking about, let me know and I'll comment on it.

4.) once again with the condescending you clearly knew my point, you’re trying to make it sound like it’s incoherent babble when it isn’t and is clearly legible, Stop.

Our communication styles must be different or something. Like above, I don't understand how you're interpreting my words in the way you're interpreting them. I'm not sure if it's a failure on my part, yours, or somewhere in between.

Also this is Dragonball not Naruto, you’re trying to make it something that it’s not. Nam and King Chappa didn’t do anything big.

They were strong humans with power comparable to the main cast. They were weaker yes, but strong enough to be considered a threat. Nam even gave Goku, a ki user, a lot of trouble. Back then, with so many strong fighters around, DB felt like a world where countless fighters like that could be found. The later we get into the series, the more it feels like fighters strong enough to be a threat are just introduced into the story for plot based reasons. Early DB was actually very similar to Naruto. Moreso than late DB anyway.

Yeah and we can do that with the cast we already have and not introducing random nobodies no one could give less of a fuck about,

The main cast is stale. I love them to death but the writers don't have a lot for them to do anymore. They have been reusing character arcs and techniques since the beginning of Super. I would love if they actually did do more with them, but as it stands, that staleness combined with the insane power bloat and chronic bad writing make the current cast really disappointing despite how awesome they are and should be. The power bloat is what ruined these last two tournaments.

If they use the main cast in more interesting ways, like how they expanded on character interactions in DB Fighterz, or created unique scenarios in Xenoverse then they'd at least have more to do.

the current TOP made them all contribute in some way and it’s more than fine with how it is now if they involved the main cast more like how they did this arc and Fighter Z is doing or introducing a new cast member like they’ve been doing.

Yeah, some way aka fan service. Characters like Tien got totally shafted, and that's part of my point, if power levels are so bloated at this point that these characters are only good for so little, then a reboot is in order, hard or soft, it doesn't matter. Power bloat is killing this series. It's clear they have nothing else for them to do really. Look at Piccolo and Gohan in this tournament. Two fan favorite characters and yet their participation in the arc has been meh. They did stuff sure, but nothing groundbreaking. They've already had their character arcs and now they just kind of exist in this franchise. I'd rather they go away than be abused any more because the writer doesn't want them to be strong anymore.

It feels like you’ve been watching to much Naruto or Fairy Tail, in Dragonball ki isn’t just this hand me down thing that’s passed around like skittles, powers and abilities and how they are established to work in world building is essential, ki is not a system in Dragonball, Toriyama designed it like “who knows what random people out in the sticks can know” it’s meant to be that there are only few who know it from the jump and that most of the Z Fighters are guys that live out in the middle of nowhere, heck it’s why Goku is a hick.

I already explained that every person in the DB world has ki. It makes more since here than those other shows. I don't watch Fairy Tail btw, so please pal, no condescending assumptions here. That's only fair, right? And that sounds an awful lot like headcanon, bud. I don't believe a limiting condition to learning ki is living in the middle of nowhere.

And I’m more than confident plenty of people especially those that are big fans of the original Dragonballs mythology and lore would despise ki being a societal system and being treated like esper/science powers, this isn’t Fairy Tail, it isn’t Naruto, it isn’t the Soul Society in Bleach, it’s not a generic anime where you can learn this sacred energy in a fucking SCHOOL or in a BOOK, it’s for people who put in the work and it fits for only THOSE groups of people, the Z Fighters.

No one would care either way. If the show is good, it's good. People don't JUST watch DB for Goku. As a matter of fact, throughout my entire childhood I hated Goku. I only started liking him as I became an adult. People watch DB for the flavor and if the new show captures that flavor, same people will watch, and even more will join because they won't feel the need to watch previous DB shows just to catch up. If they could attain the classic DB flavor and combine it with new concepts to keep things fresh and make make the world feel truly limitless like DB used to feel, they will have created one of the greatest shows EVER.

And again, ki is not special. God ki is special. Ki is inherent in every living being (apparently) so all that's needed to unlock its use is EDUCATION and TRAINING. Nothing else stands in the way.

[/spoiler]
Dragon ball is not a shonen,shonen is a demographic.It's genre is wuxia.Ki in dragon ball is something reserved for martial artists and in later part of story fighters and for why check the link below.viewtopic.php?t=31707

[Michsi]

Dragon ball is not a shonen,shonen is a demographic.It's genre is wuxia.Ki in dragon ball is something reserved for martial artists and in later part of story fighters and for why check the link below.viewtopic.php?t=31707

Oh dear, this discussion has found it's way here? Very well then. Dragon Ball being wuxia is not an official or even widely acknowledged statement. While it definitely incorporates basic themes, to say it belongs in that category first and foremost is IMO inaccurate.

Shonen might have started as a term to describe a demographic, but language evolves so does the meaning behind words, and everyone should be aware by now that 'shonen' has become a loanword that incorporates a particular narrative and visual style. Another example of this, though not the nicest one, would be the term "chick flick". The target audience is also there in the name, but what springs to mind first when people hear it is a certain type of story, not who the demographic is.

[Hawk9211]

Dragon ball is not a shonen,shonen is a demographic.It's genre is wuxia.Ki in dragon ball is something reserved for martial artists and in later part of story fighters and for why check the link below.viewtopic.php?t=31707

Oh dear, this discussion has found it's way here? Very well then. Dragon Ball being wuxia is not an official or even widely acknowledged statement. While it definitely incorporates basic themes, to say it belongs in that category first and foremost is IMO inaccurate.

Shonen might have started as a term to describe a demographic, but language evolves so does the meaning behind words, and everyone should be aware by now that 'shonen' has become a loanword that incorporates a particular narrative and visual style. Another example of this, though not the nicest one, would be the term "chick flick". The target audience is also there in the name, but what springs to mind first when people hear it is a certain type of story, not who the demographic is.

Dragon Ball is a wuxia,it is as clear as day.Does it include other things?Yes,this is also true.But let's take a look at the villains and antagonists.What is the common thing between cell who is a experimental being,buu who is a magical being,beerus who is a hakaishin,hit who is a assasin,zamasu who is a fallen good,jiren who is a superhero,along with og db villains;Martial arts.So,villains are martial artists and protagonist desire is to improve himself and surpass them.What has widely acknowledged have to do with dragon Ball being in a specific genre?Facts are not opinions.

About shonen it is not a specific type of story even now we have wide variety of stories that are not battle shonen.

[BWri]

Dragon ball is not a shonen,shonen is a demographic.It's genre is wuxia.Ki in dragon ball is something reserved for martial artists and in later part of story fighters and for why check the link below.viewtopic.php?t=31707

It's not like classic wuxia though. It has wuxia elements but its more in line with shonen battle manga which it inspired and takes inspiration from. Compare any wuxia to DB and the difference in style and presentation is night and day, especially Z, Super, and GT. You'll find more in common with DB and other series in weekly shonen jump. That said, it is clear that DB was at least inspired by wuxia.

[Michsi]

Dragon ball is not a shonen,shonen is a demographic.It's genre is wuxia.Ki in dragon ball is something reserved for martial artists and in later part of story fighters and for why check the link below.viewtopic.php?t=31707

Oh dear, this discussion has found it's way here? Very well then. Dragon Ball being wuxia is not an official or even widely acknowledged statement. While it definitely incorporates basic themes, to say it belongs in that category first and foremost is IMO inaccurate.

Shonen might have started as a term to describe a demographic, but language evolves so does the meaning behind words, and everyone should be aware by now that 'shonen' has become a loanword that incorporates a particular narrative and visual style. Another example of this, though not the nicest one, would be the term "chick flick". The target audience is also there in the name, but what springs to mind first when people hear it is a certain type of story, not who the demographic is.

Dragon Ball is a wuxia,it is as clear as day.Does it include other things?Yes,this is also true.But let's take a look at the villains and antagonists.What is the common thing between cell who is a experimental being,buu who is a magical being,beerus who is a hakaishin,hit who is a assasin,zamasu who is a fallen good,jiren who is a superhero,along with og db villains;Martial arts.So,villains are martial artists and protagonist desire is to improve himself and surpass them.What has widely acknowledged have to do with dragon Ball being in a specific genre?Facts are not opinions.

About shonen it is not a specific type of story even now we have wide variety of stories that are not battle shonen.

Dragon Ball is shonen, it is as clear as day. See what I did there?
I mean, whose words are we taking here as gospel?

What I find a bit vexing is how people ignore a very important aspect of wuxia, in that Chinese culture is essential to the wuxia genre since it's literally about ancient China and it's mythology, and DB has virtually none of that aside from a few aesthetic cues. See, if you had said that it's origin lies in old-school kung-fu movies (of which some are indeed wuxia) that I might not have argued against. Toriyama basically admitted this.
Let me ask you this: do you consider Fairy tale part of European folkloric fantasy or Märchen?

Martial artist aren't relegated exclusively to wuxia. Is Enter the dragon wuxia?

[Master Xar]

1.) It’s not a bargain sale for working hard it’s a bargain sale in the case that suddenly everyone knows ki when it is a sacred thing that only few can learn or are genetically gifted to learn it from the jump like Saiyans, if billions of people knew this the mystique of it is lost, if billions of people know about a secret agency and all it’s secrets it’s not a secret agency anymore now is it?

That's just it, ki isn't some sacred thing that only a select few have. Literally everyone has ki. Farmer with a shotgun had ki. The only thing that prevents one from properly using that ki is knowledge. So from that point of view ki has already lost it's mystique. As soon as random aliens with no interest in spirituality were shown to use it, ki lost it's mystique.

Videl only proves my point, she was actually fairly strong for a human even before ki training so it was fairly quick for her, she still needed a teacher, not a book and not like how a random guy with a shotgun can learn it.

Yeah, and how long did it take her to learn that, a few hours, days? If someone dedicated themselves to it for an even longer period of time, surely they'd have even better results. There's no genetic lock, only dedication and knowledge.

It would only make logical sense for thousands of fighters to pop up if they knew about ki, if we had it in our world with the routine crises that the Dragonball world faces we’d have MILLIONS of people training to fight, I was being forgiving with a thousand, in worldbuilding your characters have to have logic for how things work in that world, plenty of people would be all for busting their asses to be strong ki fighters whether out of professional fighting or feeling like they need to.


To put it shortly: if everyone knows ki and knows about the crises that happen routinely it makes no sense for there to only be a remote few fighters that would go out of there way to do it, we’d have militaries, veterans, assassins, and more running around.

You already explained yourself that not everyone would be proficient at ki use and I myself already mentioned the tiers so this point is already debunked. Not everyone would be able to fight the elite tiers even if they all ganged up. That would be left to the main cast and by main cast I mean the central protagonist who would be special in some way like Goku and crew were.

Androids. Do. Not. Use. Ki. This has been established for years that ki is not their energy source,

Cell uses ki. #19 and #20 use ki. Not sure what #17 and #18 use because it's never been explained but it's likely based on ki.

also using ki for mundane stuff like sports and science (the very thing it is not..) is lame,

Okaaaaay ...

once again ki is a martial art, you are basically just making Ki magic, which it isn’t, it’s for fighting and situational things revolving around fighting,

This isn't true. Ki has quite a few facets to it and while it's mostly tied to martial arts, it's not exclusively tied to it. There's a few places where you can research what ki does in the Dragon Ball world. It's very fascinating.

it wouldn’t be ki anymore if it was used like an everyday thing. In any case, ki as a martial art shouldn’t be spread around like wildfire nor should it be used like an everyday thing ESPECIALLY the latter.

Again, everyone already has ki. Farmer with a shotgun had a measureable power level and scouters measure ki.

You are essentially trying to make Dragonball rip off Naruto’s society, that’s unoriginal.

That's not at all what I'm trying to do. I'm expanding on an idea that series creator Akira Toriyama likely contributed to or created himself. And now I'm defending this amazing idea from someone who can't see the genius of it.

2.) You didn’t say the premise, you just said there would be more people knowing ki around the world, you said nothing about nerfing the Z Fighters.

Somehow we're having two entirely different conversations. You're not understanding what I'm saying. And I said nothing about nerfing the Z Fighters. I'm not talking about the Z fighters, my whole point was about a new cast, like the one from that DBO video I posted. That's how this current comment string started. When I say main cast, I'm talking about that generation which is like hundreds or thousands of years away from the current cast.

You said the tiers in regard to the elite fighters being below the Main Cast, but in what case? Are they a little bit weaker? (which would piss off plenty as it would feel rushed and make the cast and all that they’ve been through irrelevant to these noob fighters) or a lot weaker (fodder and make establishing them pointless), either or would piss off a big chunk,

Do you know the mechanics of shonen anime? That would help to understand all of this. Basically let's take that scale I made. Main Cast > Elite fighters > Vast Majority of Fighters (DB, Sayain arc tier) >>>>>>> General Public >> DBZ/DBS era general public (who don't even know ki exists). It's basic as I only took a few seconds to think about it, but it works. Let's break it down.

Main cast = the new generation of heroes, separated from the DBS cast by many many years. Comprised of humans, Saiyans, Namekians, and Majins. Saiyan blood is so diluted that they have to work almost as hard as the other races, but they still have genetic advantages. Their potentials are high so their power can span from Saiyan saga levels on beyond.

Elites = the high tier fighters that the main cast has trouble with. Elite fighters can of course train and get stronger. I think of these as the tougher people in the later arc tournaments or high level people in a new Planet Trade Organization, but really it's just those slightly weaker than the main cast, but much stronger than the majority of fighters who've studied Groundbreaking Science. Likely Namek saga level and beyond.

Majority of fighters = generic fighters who've studied groundbreaking, but lack the talent, work ethic, training, or potential to go higher. Likely early DB to late Saiyan saga tier. Includes martial artists and elite athletes.

New General Public = A general public knowledgeable about ki with some able to use it in their every day lives in mundane ways. Everyone has ki, but it takes a well studied mind to use even basic aspects of it. Even knowing about ki makes this general public greater than those in the DBS timeline. But only a small percentage of the general public can use it, because most are too impatient/stupid. The health and fitness industry has greatly benefited from basic understanding of ki.

So if this hypothetical new show worked like a typical shonen, the main cast would start off somewhere between middle of DB tier to early Saiyan saga. At least that's where I'd have them, stronger than the previous cast was at the start to show that they know what they're doing, but weak enough that we have time to watch them grow. The first arc might be an adventure arc where we meet more "majority" tier fighters and maybe all these fighters are gearing up for the tournament. In the tournament all the majority tier fighters put up good fights, but the main cast brushes them aside like Goku, Krillin, and Roshi did in DB, with some of the majority tier fighters pushing the main cast to the next level. The main cast must then fight one another and we see just how much they've improved. They push one another even more.

Then there's maybe another adventure, new villains to match the main cast and then we move unto the elites. Now that the main cast is high tier Saiyan saga level, they can move on to the weakest of the elites, the early Namek saga tiers. And there's so many tiers of power in the namek saga that you can have many many levels of elites. Elites can get stronger to match the heroes but the heroes are usually ahead. Elites are not the main villains mind you, but the henchmen of the main villains. Main villains are usually main cast tier and above. That's pretty much it. You could introduce more tiers as the show goes on but the main cast would remain some of the strongest beings in the series, leaving behind the majority tier and general public. It honestly wouldn't be much different from Dragon Ball, only imagine if every character in the DB/DBZ tournaments knew how to use ki.

not to mention this whole paragraph oozes condescending, we are having regular conversation, knock it off. I’ve read very clearly thank you very much.

I'll admit to being frustrated at having my words be so misconstrued. Regardless, you're right and I apologize. We're here to interact and ultimately better understand one another, so I won't stoop so low again. Thanks for pointing that out.

3.) you just said the main cast (I assume you mean Goku and Co. given that you mention SSJG and SSJB level) would be far above the elites and general public, you’re changing what you’re saying more and more,

I can't help but feel that you didn't see my initial post that started this comment string. I posted a video about a new generation of fighters participating in TB tournament in DBO. The climax of the tournament was a Super Saiyan and Namekian having and epic ki clash. Everything I mentioned was regarding a new generation such as the one in DBO. I only use the current cast to compare levels of power with this theoretical new cast.

it’s not a balanced system if they can catch up to the main cast through natural training or means. If they aren’t far above the elites then it feels like their training and current power is worth crap, if they are far below them than they are pointless fodder, if they come out of nowhere it’s the same as what we’ve been doing, it’s a catch 22.

Since this appears to be a misunderstanding, I'll just leave it. I'm not referring to Goku and the others when I say main cast. If you think this still applies to what we're talking about, let me know and I'll comment on it.

4.) once again with the condescending you clearly knew my point, you’re trying to make it sound like it’s incoherent babble when it isn’t and is clearly legible, Stop.

Our communication styles must be different or something. Like above, I don't understand how you're interpreting my words in the way you're interpreting them. I'm not sure if it's a failure on my part, yours, or somewhere in between.

Also this is Dragonball not Naruto, you’re trying to make it something that it’s not. Nam and King Chappa didn’t do anything big.

They were strong humans with power comparable to the main cast. They were weaker yes, but strong enough to be considered a threat. Nam even gave Goku, a ki user, a lot of trouble. Back then, with so many strong fighters around, DB felt like a world where countless fighters like that could be found. The later we get into the series, the more it feels like fighters strong enough to be a threat are just introduced into the story for plot based reasons. Early DB was actually very similar to Naruto. Moreso than late DB anyway.

Yeah and we can do that with the cast we already have and not introducing random nobodies no one could give less of a fuck about,

The main cast is stale. I love them to death but the writers don't have a lot for them to do anymore. They have been reusing character arcs and techniques since the beginning of Super. I would love if they actually did do more with them, but as it stands, that staleness combined with the insane power bloat and chronic bad writing make the current cast really disappointing despite how awesome they are and should be. The power bloat is what ruined these last two tournaments.

If they use the main cast in more interesting ways, like how they expanded on character interactions in DB Fighterz, or created unique scenarios in Xenoverse then they'd at least have more to do.

the current TOP made them all contribute in some way and it’s more than fine with how it is now if they involved the main cast more like how they did this arc and Fighter Z is doing or introducing a new cast member like they’ve been doing.

Yeah, some way aka fan service. Characters like Tien got totally shafted, and that's part of my point, if power levels are so bloated at this point that these characters are only good for so little, then a reboot is in order, hard or soft, it doesn't matter. Power bloat is killing this series. It's clear they have nothing else for them to do really. Look at Piccolo and Gohan in this tournament. Two fan favorite characters and yet their participation in the arc has been meh. They did stuff sure, but nothing groundbreaking. They've already had their character arcs and now they just kind of exist in this franchise. I'd rather they go away than be abused any more because the writer doesn't want them to be strong anymore.

It feels like you’ve been watching to much Naruto or Fairy Tail, in Dragonball ki isn’t just this hand me down thing that’s passed around like skittles, powers and abilities and how they are established to work in world building is essential, ki is not a system in Dragonball, Toriyama designed it like “who knows what random people out in the sticks can know” it’s meant to be that there are only few who know it from the jump and that most of the Z Fighters are guys that live out in the middle of nowhere, heck it’s why Goku is a hick.

I already explained that every person in the DB world has ki. It makes more since here than those other shows. I don't watch Fairy Tail btw, so please pal, no condescending assumptions here. That's only fair, right? And that sounds an awful lot like headcanon, bud. I don't believe a limiting condition to learning ki is living in the middle of nowhere.

And I’m more than confident plenty of people especially those that are big fans of the original Dragonballs mythology and lore would despise ki being a societal system and being treated like esper/science powers, this isn’t Fairy Tail, it isn’t Naruto, it isn’t the Soul Society in Bleach, it’s not a generic anime where you can learn this sacred energy in a fucking SCHOOL or in a BOOK, it’s for people who put in the work and it fits for only THOSE groups of people, the Z Fighters.

No one would care either way. If the show is good, it's good. People don't JUST watch DB for Goku. As a matter of fact, throughout my entire childhood I hated Goku. I only started liking him as I became an adult. People watch DB for the flavor and if the new show captures that flavor, same people will watch, and even more will join because they won't feel the need to watch previous DB shows just to catch up. If they could attain the classic DB flavor and combine it with new concepts to keep things fresh and make make the world feel truly limitless like DB used to feel, they will have created one of the greatest shows EVER.

And again, ki is not special. God ki is special. Ki is inherent in every living being (apparently) so all that's needed to unlock its use is EDUCATION and TRAINING. Nothing else stands in the way.

1.) yeah because Videl was already proficient in strength as a human to learn ki dude, Mr. Satan and his family are decently above guys like the farmer with a shotgun, he isn’t going to learn it easily and has to build up plenty of strength to learn it, if Videl was at regular human strength it’d take years for her to learn it.

2.) there are others who would train until they WERE strong enough to use ki like Videl you aren’t getting the point, if everyone knows ki exists there’d be millions of people training to get to superhuman level to use it, so only having a few fighters falls apart in a future setting. It doesn’t matter if you explain the tiers if they very clearly make no sense if everyone knows about it, people CAN learn ki I never said it was impossible, I said that if only few knew about it and suddenly the WHOLE world knew about it’s existence we cannot have fighters popping up all over the world using ki like it was riding a bicycle.

3.) yeah. He is a bio-android with the mind of several martial arts masters. 19 and 20 absorb energy, 17 and 18 very clearly don’t use it, no one can sense ki in them because they don’t use it.

4.) yeah. You heard me It’s lame, if everyone knows how to use ki it loses it’s magic thus lame, several people in the thread already agreed that it sucks if everyone knows how to do this special thing only few can use as effectively as the main cast “new” and “fresh” =/= good.

5.) So? He has energy, weak energy that he cannot use unless he gets stronger he represents the regular human population, if he and the rest of the population knew of ki’s existence along with the crises they face every few years we’d have more than plenty of people training as hard as they can.

6.) I know the mechanics, yours just doesn’t work in the setting, you also clearly implied the main cast would be far above the rest, I can quote it, the reason it doesn’t work is because if the general population isn’t fucking retarded we’d have most people training everyday. Why? Because there’d be a routine of villains popping up every few years. Ex: the main cast have been fighting an enemy that’s been slaughtering people all across the world ala Buu and the main cast by the skin of their teeth and they wish the human race back to life, common sense dictates there’d be PLENTY of people after that point busting their asses training for the next threat, I’m talking global scale, and if they don’t... well you failed at world building if your society and it’s populace is retarded, why should the audience care what happens to them?

Lazy be damned when crises is afoot, it doesn’t matter if you say they’re lazy if they have common sense and know how much potential ki is or would generally be uncomfortable with how there are thousands of people who could literally kill them in one hit and there’d be almost nothing to stop them, you’d have elites and the main cast on watch 24/7 if they were that much stronger than the general public until the general public got strong enough to face them and in that case when EVERYONE is as strong as the main cast and uses ki it becomes lame and stale, ki would completely lose its luster.

Your scale makes no sense if the characters and society have common sense.

7.) I’ll get to this “apology” later...

8.) and as I’ve said you clearly stated the main cast would be far above the elites and general public and then later took it back with the elites only being barely weaker. I brought up the main cast from current as as that was what I assumed you were using in “comparison” in that specific point.

9.) read above

10.) you know what I said and what I was referring to I’m not going to say it again. Knock it off.

11.) not as much so as what you’re suggesting, Dragonball had people who knew about ki from different parts of the world and creatures (which isn’t much different from DBS only it’s universes and planets) the public still knew nothing about ki yo the point where years later they were convinced it was “special effects” Dragonball introduces fighters not to much different from DBS where you keep saying they come from “out of nowhere” regardless not everyone knows what ki or is strong enough to use it. Dragonball doesn’t have everyone know about ki like Naruto has everyone know what Chakra is, wrong.

12.) your opinion isn’t a fact. Me and a good chunk of the fandom would love to disagree with that, One Piece has been running just as many episodes and you don’t hear whining about the main cast or the next generation being needed, Naruto was the opposite and it’s still the opposite now with Boruto, people DESPISE next generation stories what part of that don’t you get? If people said Heroes of DBO was getting a an anime you’d have people ranting everywhere across Reddit, Twitter, FaceBook, YouTube, etc. plenty want the main cast running and don’t think they’re stale and that is a fact. There have been plenty interesting character interactions and development around 18, Gohan, 17, Krillin, Vegeta etc. and once again a good chunk would disagree with your point. Let me reiterate “new” and “fresh” =/= good

13.) Tien is the only good example you brought up, the main cast all defeated some form of fighters, too much some would say they all supported in the main goal: Fight and Win in the tournament, they don’t need a big hit against the Pride Troopers and Jiren in order to do that, fan service is not innately bad so I don’t know why you brought that up.

14.) I brought up Fairy Tail because it is a shonen that uses its energy in a society it was not even a “condescending assumption”, Toriyama answered that in an interview that it’s supposed to be that way look it up, now here’s where your “apology” is fake, this whole paragraph once again is condescending, I’m not your “bud” nor your “pal” don’t ever refer to me as such, if you can’t handle someone having a different opinion with you without being a condescending asshole and having respect, common decency and maturity to them then don’t reply to me again.

15.) once again me and plenty of people would disagree, people like DBO, Xenoverse, and DBH as games, they should stay as such, people watch DB for plenty of different reasons, your idea has no presidency over others and that it “should” be that way, you go out of your way to say your opinion is fact in the points above, frankly I don’t care what your reasons for liking the series is given your lack of respect.

Ki is special for those that train and know about it. Take that away and have everyone know about it what’s the point? It becomes lame and the universe becomes like every other universe out there with some sort of “system” to their boring society, that’s why their should only be a few Super Fighters. I won’t bother replying given you seem to lack the maturity to speak to me like an adult.

[Grimlock]

even the Time Patrollers in Xenoverse are questionable if they were suddenly canon in the series.

Time Patrollers in Xenoverse are one of the biggest "what-if" of the game, clearly not meant to be taken somewhere else as they aren't in "match" (lack of a better word) with the storyline. In Dragon Ball Online, you can only play only as a human, a Namekuseijin or a Majin because of the plot of the game and it all fits with the storyline. Namekuseijins now live on Earth because Namekusei was destroyed; Majin Buu created a family; and the humans are descendants of Goku and Vegeta (that's why they can transform into Super Saiyan).

In Xenoverse, the fact that you can play as a member of Freeza race is one of them, as we don't know if there are/were members of that race that were good.
Playing as Saiyans barely can be called "what-if", because Toki Toki City/Conton City lies in Universe 7, therefore, the Saiyans must be from Universe 7, but how can it be if almost all of them were killed? The game acknowledges that the planet was destroyed, let alone that we don't know how many Saiyans were good before the destruction of the planet.

From Xenoverse, only elements, isolated concepts can be taken elsewhere, like the "Dabura and Towa are siblings" for example, since it doesn't affect anything else.

[Hawk9211]

Oh dear, this discussion has found it's way here? Very well then. Dragon Ball being wuxia is not an official or even widely acknowledged statement. While it definitely incorporates basic themes, to say it belongs in that category first and foremost is IMO inaccurate.

Shonen might have started as a term to describe a demographic, but language evolves so does the meaning behind words, and everyone should be aware by now that 'shonen' has become a loanword that incorporates a particular narrative and visual style. Another example of this, though not the nicest one, would be the term "chick flick". The target audience is also there in the name, but what springs to mind first when people hear it is a certain type of story, not who the demographic is.

Dragon Ball is a wuxia,it is as clear as day.Does it include other things?Yes,this is also true.But let's take a look at the villains and antagonists.What is the common thing between cell who is a experimental being,buu who is a magical being,beerus who is a hakaishin,hit who is a assasin,zamasu who is a fallen good,jiren who is a superhero,along with og db villains;Martial arts.So,villains are martial artists and protagonist desire is to improve himself and surpass them.What has widely acknowledged have to do with dragon Ball being in a specific genre?Facts are not opinions.

About shonen it is not a specific type of story even now we have wide variety of stories that are not battle shonen.

Dragon Ball is shonen, it is as clear as day. See what I did there?
I mean, whose words are we taking here as gospel?

What I find a bit vexing is how people ignore a very important aspect of wuxia, in that Chinese culture is essential to the wuxia genre since it's literally about ancient China and it's mythology, and DB has virtually none of that aside from a few aesthetic cues. See, if you had said that it's origin lies in old-school kung-fu movies (of which some are indeed wuxia) that I might not have argued against. Toriyama basically admitted this.
Let me ask you this: do you consider Fairy tale part of European folkloric fantasy or Märchen?

Martial artist aren't relegated exclusively to wuxia. Is Enter the dragon wuxia?

I am not much of a expert on wuxia,but I don't think that is necessary I am just going to copy paste:

Dragon Ball, at its core, IS as a genre at its most fundamentals, regardless of Toriyama's own level of formal knowledge about the deeper details of that genre's history. If someone writes a story about a government experiment gone awry or a magical totem that's been disturbed from its cradle, what have you, which then causes corpses to start coming to life in droves and start munching on the flesh of the living, all while said hypothetical-author having NEVER seen any of the George Romero oeuvre at all, only absorbing their very basics through sheer popular osmosis (which is VERY easy to do now in our presently zombie-fried modern culture), that doesn't somehow mean that the story in question is anything other than a fucking zombie story. A horror story at the VERY bare minimum.

Wuxia, Mystical Martial Arts Fantasy Fiction, whatever you wish to call it, is at its basics a genre of stories that are generally about obsessively dedicated masters of armed and unarmed kung fu who are often loners or exist on the fringes of their society, whose entire lives revolve around training deeply in Taoism-rooted supernaturally Ki-powered martial arts and who engage in rivalries and fights with demons, gods, monsters, rival martial arts schools, and tyrannical emperors/rulers of despotic kingdoms. Often within a fantasy-fied mythically ancient Chinese setting, but also sometimes within a modern setting, and sometimes (particularly within the 80s and 90s) with some other non-martial artsy genre window dressing on top (Time traveling! Modern criminal street gangs acting as rival martial arts sects!) with the tone in more modern examples often (though not always by any means) violently whiplashing from silly to dramatic and back at the drop of a hat, and with forbidden, destructively powerful martial arts techniques and magically enchanted artifacts often acting as common MacGuffins.

Dragon Ball is... a story about a group of obsessively dedicated masters of, largely unarmed, kung fu (one in particular as a central focus) who are mostly loners (they tend to lose track of one another for like decades at a time in many cases) and exist on the fringes of their society, whose entire lives revolve around training deeply in Taoism-rooted supernaturally Ki-powered martial arts and who engage in rivalries and fights with demons, gods, monsters, rival martial arts schools, and tyrannical emperors/rulers of despotic kingdoms. Largely within a fantasy-fied mythically ancient Chinese setting which is also mixed with a very modern setting, and which has also at times (particularly within the late 80s/early 90s) dabbled in mixing in other non-martial artsy genre trappings as window dressing (Despot SPACE emperor! Evil mutant Youxia created from the DNA of other Youxia by a mad scientist!) with the tone violently whiplashing from silly to dramatic and back again at the drop of a hat, and with forbidden, destructively powerful martial arts techniques and magically enchanted artifacts (the series being NAMED AFTER one of them) often acting as common MacGuffins

And from what I have experienced myself fist of north star,kung fu hustle and shaolin soccer are considered wuxia despite not being in ancient china.The latter of these is mixing martial arts in soccer.

Now I am not saying dragon ball is only wuxia.It is wuxia in same sense naruto is a ninja story and one piece is about pirates.

@BWri
About shonen,it is a demographic.Nowadays,battle shonen inspired by dragon ball are popular but no it doesn't dictate all of shonen.That's like saying comic book movies are dumb fun set in shared universe with diffferent organizations because of marvel.Or a better example would be american cartoons which are mostly like tom and jerry however there are shows like avatar.

[Michsi]

*snip.

You don't need to copy-paste, I was in the nitty-gritty of this discussion.

My issue is not necessary with people claiming that it is or isn't wuxia, it's with people claiming it isn't .shonen'. This whole shonen is not a genre, it's just a demographic argument is as flawed as it outdated. For instance, since these stories have clearly been catering to female audiences as well (massively sometimes) for a good number of years now, how accurate is it to claim it is means nothing but 'the demographic' ?! This strikes as the same type of admonition directed at those that use the terms manga and anime because 'oh, it just means cartoons and comics'. It completely bypasses a very clear and distinct connotation/ interpretation the term has accumulated for the sake of ....I honestly can't think of any other reason than elitism?

I have never seen Kung fu hustle be referred to as wuxia, just that it makes reference to wuxia works and it's themes, which is exactly what DB does.