First of all I want to say thanks for engaging with me in an intelligent and friendly way. I don’t always get that from these boards and I appreciate when I do.snpaa wrote:
It's the same, the only difference is that z was more subtle about it and super is more in your face about it . Z does it better because we are read between the lines , because of his previous act of sacrificing himself that he is not fighting for just himself but everyone he cares about. Vegeta done right is when his signs of affection and caring for someone isn't explicitly or repeatedly stated.
I'm fine with him not going through major changes just don't pretend like it's a big development.
I am not saying Vegeta didn’t love his family in the Buu saga. The Buu saga was Vegeta coming to terms with that love & in the end it was stronger than the Majin power reawakening the evil in his heart. Also when he came back to life he obviously fought to protect Earth with Goku. The Buu saga was when Vegeta fully became a hero. This is obviously the end of Vegeta’s major character development. I don’t really think he needs to have another drastic change after this point.
In Super I just see a Vegeta who has fully accepted who he is. While Vegeta is still not always open with his feelings he has fully embraced his role as father, husband, and protector of Earth.
There are tons of moments I never thought I’d get from Vegeta.
* Him going on a vacation with his family. Okay it wasn’t his favorite thing to do but he still did it.
* Staying with Bulma and not training while she was pregnant
* Holding his baby daughter and thinking of names for her
Oh changing her diaper.
* Him giving words of encouragement to Future Trunks
* Also I think Vegeta outright saying he is fighting for his family, Cabba etc while definitely not subtle is a different Vegeta because he is outright embracing and saying these are the things that make me strong when before his view was that attachments made you weak.
* Him crying in the last episode because he couldn’t keep a promise to others is also I think a great contrast to him crying in the Freeza saga because he failed himself.
I am not saying any of these things are major changes for Vegeta like what happened to him in Z. They are more small changes that are in line with the path he ultimately chose in Z .
Gohan’s relationship with Piccolo changed them both. I see Vegeta’s relationship with Cabba more to show us how Vegeta has already changed.One of the reasons toriyama wrote piccolo and gohan's mentor student relationship was to develop piccolo's character and vice versa for gohan, the reason for the vegeta cabba mentor student relationship is to further develop the vegeta character the sole difference between these parallel events is that nobody gives a shit about cabba . Because he is a stranger to us with little to no history or relation to vegeta or the rest of the cast, he just posses his racial heritage, that's it .
Anyways I am not going to argue that Cabba is a well developed character compared to Gohan and Piccolo. He’s a recurring character. Not every character has to be well developed though and who knows maybe over time we will see more of Cabba.
To me Cabba is more symbolic of giving Vegeta another chance with a new Saiyajin race. I honestly think Vegeta is proud that there is a race of noble yet still strong Saiyajins. Having one look up to him would also make Vegeta feel proud. And for him the U6 Saiyajins are a second chance that he lost with his own planet.
But anyways yes ultimately it’s more about Vegeta’s character than Cabba.
As for their relationship being developed quickly sure it was but I feel that is par for the course. I mean what about Kuririn developing feelings for 18 because she kissed him once.
Well I think deep down Vegeta did care about what happened to his race but didn’t fully understand those feelings himself. That doesn’t necessarily mean I think he had any real affection or love for his people. I just think deep down he did feel a sense of loss. Probably one that even he himself didn’t fully realize.
It's possible , like I said before dragonball is filled with contradictions , we choose to believe the scenes we like the most at the same time as I said earlier the vegeta character done right is subtle , he doesn't explicitly state his affections which makes moments where he does show his vulnerabilities , insecurities, respect and admiration that much more impactful. So you're right reading between the lines he could still care about his race, but at the same same time he showed no interest in reeving raditz because he was weak, he killed nappa for losing a fight, nappa is someone that vegeta has known for 15+ years by now and he discarded him like a used tissue.
As for Nappa and Raditz I also don’t think there was any affection between them. They were servants to him. He was the prince and more importantly he was the strongest. It was a relationship based on power and fear not true affection. And in Freeza’s army it was no different either. Your rank was based on strength.
Compare his relationship to Bulma & Trunks who never show fear to him. Bulma’s isn’t afraid to order him
around and Trunks shows true admiration for him (talking about Chibi Trunks here). He certainly never had that type of relationship before.
You are absolutely right. The Nameks for example were a peaceful and loving race.I don't believe that murder and genocide was just a human concept of morality in the dragonball universe, we saw many different cultures that either knew murder was wrong or knew it was wrong and didn't care.
But the Saiyajins were not portrayed this way (except in a few rare exceptions) . I think in Toriyama’s notes he even said the concept of family was not one the Saiyajins really had. And then of course Vegeta went to Freeza as a child.
Anyways I used humanity as it seemed the best word to encompass what I meant. To me the concept of humanity was alien to Vegeta until he started to live on Earth.
I don’t necessarily see this as proof of love though more Vegeta being shocked that his strong father was being attacked by someone. Although I believe at one point it was said that Vegeta even as a kid even surpassed his father. So yeah there are definitely contradictions lol2. If you ignore(which I choose to do)the super scene where kid vegeta is seen in a flashback worried about his dad bowing to beerus and making b line charge for beerus, I can agree with the idea that loveing and caring were things he never experienced
But even if Vegeta may of had feelings of love for his father were those feelings returned and would he have understood them? And again shortly after he would be taken in by Freeza.