Development isn't always necessary if there is characterization. But, I do think they have progressed both as fighters and people (the latter being mostly Vegeta). Goku is still a questionable person regarding ethics and he became much more of that in the TOP. It's not that the plot point was dropped or backed away from, but it's because his part in it has mostly been resolved; he gave the universes a fighting chance to survive, but of course they aren't going to win and most of the tournament has been amusement for Goku though we have seen that he doesn't like what's happening. But, what can he do? He can have mental goofs, but he isn't stupid enough to fight against a being he knows damn well he can't win against. He has a role to play and he knows that. We know Goku has had questionable actions before, but this arc focused much more on how far he would go just to get a good fight. He knew the risk and still took it. He even went to Hell and promised Freeza to revive him should he help in the tournament. Those are interesting developments in regards to Goku's character regardless if it makes him a better person or not. People wanna talk about Goku regressing, but I don't see that. This isn't a super hero story with super hero characters except Gohan and that's limited to when he feels like it. These are just flawed people in a grand story looking to improve, get good fights, and save the world if the situation calls for it. And not to mention Goku has gotten 2 god levels and the greatest martial arts skill in the verse now. That speaks for itself. But he isn't perfect nor is he being written to be.Cipher wrote:All of what comes after the first few sentences there is fine: I do feel that the ways in which Super's stories escalate, and even the specific ideas behind each arc, are perfectly coherent and fitting. It even, as you notrsd, maintains one of my favorites elements of the series in that you'd have to be some kind of savant to predict where each arc would end based on its beginnings. One of my biggest misgivings with Super has been the gap between its ideas and execution through Toei. Reduced to summary, it sounds fine.Nero<>Akira wrote:Yes it does. I feel progression. How anyone can't blows my mind. It actually feels more cohesive than the original manga did after the Freeza arc. That's not to nag on the original series. I love Dragon Ball and stuff happens in it. And despite some inconsistencies in characters or dialogue or whatever, the story still feels like a complete narrative focused on getting most of its characters to get better than the original DB did at some point. Does it do everything we want or how we would have done it? No. A story shouldn't go how we expect it and I am quite sure NOBODY expected how Super was gonna go except that Goku and Jiren would be the final fight in this arc and any villain they came across would die at the end of the arc. How things happened being good or bad is up for discussion. But again, it does feel like a story. Super is an amalgamation of early Dragon Ball and later Dragon Ball and what we end up with is more of a traditional fantasy martial arts story with some side adventures and occasional sci fi. That's what i love about the show. Resurrection F was pretty bare bones, but it's pretty much a martial arts movie that so many people like except it being a Dragon Ball version (the F arc was just straight bad though with early parts being good). Super is Goku's (& Vegeta) martial arts progression leading him into his ascension into another plane of of existence and interacting with angels and gods that was already spearheaded in the original manga; it's just continuing off of that; it's Toriyama continuing his version of the legend of Sun Wukong; notice how the gods and angels are definitely not "good" beings.
But that's all plot and premise stuff. Character progression? Throughout the original run, we get to be continuously surprised by the new shades of Goku, revealed through unexpected actions: The revelation that he's still trying to win the tournament while fighting Piccolo, even after training with God; letting Piccolo and Vegeta go for their rivalries; coming to terms with his Saiyan side, and his entire series of interactions with Freeza; choosing to let the androids activate, expressing a mix of dread and desire when Cell shows up; every choice he makes as a bored dead guy in the Boo arc that culminates in his arc finishing off with Oob. At the same time, characters such as Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo, Kuririn, Tenshinhan—take your pick—also grow steadily each arc. The story offers glimpses into new eras of their lives with each news incident as well.
What in Super has been surprising? What's been new on a main character front, or a response to its events? The most I can think of is Goku's seeming complicity in the Tournament of Power flipping the script on Beerus—that was new and interesting, and had potential—but the series immediately backed away from it.
Goku and Vegeta in Super's final arc, power aside, are the same as they were when they walked in. Most of the cast is. Others, such as Gohan and Kuririn, have been given something to waffle over, but that doesn't feel sincere.
As a series of extra one offs, that's fine, and things build upon each other enough in terms of the plots to keep it engaging on that level. But as a long-running serial, one of the core components of narrative is missing, in a way it isn't in the original run.
Plot coherence is great and all (everything being a continuously rising set of stakes from interaction with these high gods), but it's a whole lot of nothing if the story beats aren't matched with surprising and interesting character ones.
Perhaps because of its placement as a miduel, perhaps because Toriyama isn't forcing himself to develop a narrative by scripting week to week—or some combination of the above—both versions of Super manage to offer up at least a little of every one of Dragon Ball's strengths except its sense of story and change.
Vegeta has just shown more of the qualities that make him a decent human being. The boo arc may have jump started that, but do you really ever see it that much? That answer, quite frankly, is no. The more Super progressed, the more we see being more open showing love and care for his family and even taking time off from training willingly. yes, by the end of the original manga, Vegeta does take action to save people and the want to atone for what he's done. And yes, he does admit Goku is better. But we don't see the follow ups to these developments until Super which I have just described. Vegeta develops a friendship with Goku and a friendly rivalry that we never saw in the original manga. Vegeta has no ill will, conflict, or anger towards Goku. He respects him more than he ever has and knows he needs him to become an even better fighter (touched upon in F). When Goku surpassed him in Super, he got irritated, but he harbored no ill will and continued to improve and get stronger. It even got to the point where in the TOP, he never even lost his cool after seeing everything Goku could do. He still wants to be the best and be better than Goku, but he isn't losing sleep when isn't. Vegeta also goes to levels never before to swallow pride when need be; he also doesn't wanna be just like Goku and do everything he does. And then there's the latest episode too. All of that? That's development. And damn good development.
Gohan got developement as well. Much needed development. In the boo arc, Gohan trained because there was no other option. In Super, he ends up training because he knows he will need the power when Goku or Vegeta isn't there; even if it's peaceful, he'll train; he wants to protect his wife and daughter more than anything. That didn't even happen after Cell was killed. So that was good. Hopefully it continues.
Piccolo has become more comic relief, but i appreciated the time the writers took in order to have him teach Gohan his flaws as a fighter and push Gohan to become even better. Hell, they made him not slack off either. He gained a good boost.
Krillin got great development and characterization after the FT arc. Refreshing.
Roshi got some development too and much appreciated.
Tien just got opened a dojo. He isn't any different, but that was cool to see.
Freeza may still be an evil person, but damn did he get a makeover. He's the best he's ever been.