Does Dragon Ball even feel like a story anymore?

[Doctor.]

This argument is bizarre. The Beerus movie started Dragonball's revival. God and Blue are part of the new revival of Dragonball along with Super. DBZ ended with the Buu arc where SSJ3 was the last known transformation.

So yes, even though the movie came out a little before, and hell the Freeza movie came out in 2015 the same exact year as Super, it counts. Super made Goku millions of times stronger than the Buu arc with color swap changes that than lost all meaning because power level scaling in Super is awful. So we have Blue losing to Super Saiyan 2-tier characters and so forth.

And now Ultra Instinct black barely lasts 5 episodes.

And as I pointed out, there is actual a two year different between Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. And the movie Battle of Gods made Goku millions of times stronger, Super just took it from there. So why are blaming the movie Battle of Gods for Super's supposed scaling problems?

And we have this discussion on Reset why Blue never lost to "Super Saiyan 2-tier" characters since Future Zamasu nor Black were "Super Saiyan 2-tier", so please stop spreading this BS. And UI Omen was introduced in 110 and UI isn't until 129. That is 19 episodes, so where are you getting five from?

He lost to Kale.

[HeroR]

This argument is bizarre. The Beerus movie started Dragonball's revival. God and Blue are part of the new revival of Dragonball along with Super. DBZ ended with the Buu arc where SSJ3 was the last known transformation.

So yes, even though the movie came out a little before, and hell the Freeza movie came out in 2015 the same exact year as Super, it counts. Super made Goku millions of times stronger than the Buu arc with color swap changes that than lost all meaning because power level scaling in Super is awful. So we have Blue losing to Super Saiyan 2-tier characters and so forth.

And now Ultra Instinct black barely lasts 5 episodes.

And as I pointed out, there is actual a two year different between Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. And the movie Battle of Gods made Goku millions of times stronger, Super just took it from there. So why are blaming the movie Battle of Gods for Super's supposed scaling problems?

And we have this discussion on Reset why Blue never lost to "Super Saiyan 2-tier" characters since Future Zamasu nor Black were "Super Saiyan 2-tier", so please stop spreading this BS. And UI Omen was introduced in 110 and UI isn't until 129. That is 19 episodes, so where are you getting five from?

He lost to Kale.

Kale isn't a Super Saiyan 2 tier fighter. She's stronger than that. Especially since "Super Saiyan 2-tier" isn't even a thing since Super Saiyan 2 in a multiplier of whatever a Saiyan's base form is.

And it's also weird that you're using Kale as "Blue lost to a Super Saiyan 2-tier fighter" when Kale in that same episode smashed Super Saiyan 2 Goku. So what Super Saiyan 2 are you comparing Kale to?

[sintzu]

It's definitely less of a story than the original manga was as not only is the structure off but some of the story decisions are very merchandise driven like these new forms. Goku's new white form was announced for the games before the anime even hinted at it which shows where the franchise's priority is right now.

[Hawk9211]

Transformation are only because the show is running purely on flash.I mean we have a game built around fusion.Broly is the most popular movie character.Dbs manga is often critisised for having less hype(flash).

Most of the criticism for the manga is it being rushed, having weird explainations, often having several characters saying the same thing ten different ways in the same chapter, and how it write some characters. It being ‘boring’ to some isn’t all because ‘it has no flash’.

*One of reasons
I would add playing too safe in that list and there are a lot of people that don't like manga due to less flash.Take merged zamasu for example.

[TekTheNinja]

Nah, none of these arcs even connect at all, and now the show is ending and very little of any importance has actually changed in the narrative. The show has no real plot reason to exist as of now, because the show always sets things up but has also done nothing with anything it set up. It's a nothing of a show.

[Doctor.]

And as I pointed out, there is actual a two year different between Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. And the movie Battle of Gods made Goku millions of times stronger, Super just took it from there. So why are blaming the movie Battle of Gods for Super's supposed scaling problems?

And we have this discussion on Reset why Blue never lost to "Super Saiyan 2-tier" characters since Future Zamasu nor Black were "Super Saiyan 2-tier", so please stop spreading this BS. And UI Omen was introduced in 110 and UI isn't until 129. That is 19 episodes, so where are you getting five from?

He lost to Kale.

Kale isn't a Super Saiyan 2 tier fighter. She's stronger than that. Especially since "Super Saiyan 2-tier" isn't even a thing since Super Saiyan 2 in a multiplier of whatever a Saiyan's base form is.

And it's also weird that you're using Kale as "Blue lost to a Super Saiyan 2-tier fighter" when Kale in that same episode smashed Super Saiyan 2 Goku. So what Super Saiyan 2 are you comparing Kale to?

Stop being pedantic. You know what people mean by "Super Saiyan 2 tier", they mean it's around the ballpark of Goku and Vegeta's current Super Saiyan 2 forms. Obviously nobody means SS2 Cell Games Gohan.

Kale and Caulifla were struggling with a tired SS2 Goku and later got smashed by SSG Goku. However strong you consider Kale to be - SS2 strong, SS3 strong - the point is that she's obviously weaker than Super Saiyan Blue Golu yet she defeated him all for the sake of spectacle (and a poor homage to Broly), thus illustrating how broken the powet scale in the show is. That's precita's point.

[HeroR]

Stop being pedantic. You know what people mean by "Super Saiyan 2 tier", they mean it's around the ballpark of Goku and Vegeta's current Super Saiyan 2 forms. Obviously nobody means SS2 Cell Games Gohan.

Kale and Caulifla were struggling with a tired SS2 Goku and later got smashed by SSG Goku. However strong you consider Kale to be - SS2 strong, SS3 strong - the point is that she's obviously weaker than Super Saiyan Blue Golu yet she defeated him all for the sake of spectacle (and a poor homage to Broly), thus illustrating how broken the powet scale in the show is. That's precita's point.

It's a pet peeve of mines, so live with it. And I have seen people mean Cell Saga Gohan, so.....

Kale didn't struggled with Super Saiyan 2 Goku. She bodied him in both 100 and then later in 114. Goku only did so well in 114 because of his skills. Even then, he went Super Saiyan God and Kale took hits from Super Saiyan God Goku and got into two scuffles with him where they were even, so was at the very least within rang of Super Saiyan God, not Super Saiyan 2 or even 3.

And as a final nitpick, Kale didn't even 'defeat' Goku in 100. She walked through his Kamehameha, grabbed him, and then the fight ended because she went crazy. It wasn't like Kale and Goku had an actual fight, especially when Goku wasn't even hurt in the exchanged.

Transformation are only because the show is running purely on flash.I mean we have a game built around fusion.Broly is the most popular movie character.Dbs manga is often critisised for having less hype(flash).

Most of the criticism for the manga is it being rushed, having weird explainations, often having several characters saying the same thing ten different ways in the same chapter, and how it write some characters. It being ‘boring’ to some isn’t all because ‘it has no flash’.

*One of reasons
I would add playing too safe in that list and there are a lot of people that don't like manga due to less flash.Take merged zamasu for example.

There is a different between 'no flash' and just being lame. Like Jiren is an example of 'no flash' outside of a few moves, while manga Merged Zamasu literally threw steel bricks as his final moved against Vegetto.

[lancerman]

Dragon Ball Super does not own, nor did it create, Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue. No matter how much the show, Toei, Bandai or other fans may say otherwise.

That's like saying that Super Saiyan is not owned or created by Dragon Ball Z because it first appeared in the Dragon Ball manga. They are adaptions of each other.

Not really the same since the manga is the original source while Dragon Ball Z is just an adaptation. So, the movies would be the original source and Super would be the adaptation. Especially when you considered that there is a two year different between Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan since Battle of Gods came out in 2013 and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan came out in 2015.

That's exactly what I said...

Super Saiyan God
Original Source- movies
Adaptation- Dragon Ball Super

Super Saiyan
Original Source- manga
Adaptation- Dragon Ball Z

[Basaku]

3. The new forms that Goku has obtained exclusively in Super are NOT Super Saiyan forms. Super Saiyan Blue stacked with Kaioken isn't a new form as it is more of a power up of a previous form. And Ultra Instinct is a self movement martial arts technique that can only be attained by users of God Ki. It isn't tied to Super Saiyan at all.

I mean sure, but it doesn't matter. Who gets this "power-up-for-all"? A Saiyan. Which Saiyan? Goku, of course... so it may as well be another SS form for him. He's the only one who got it and will stay like this probably for a long time (if not forever). Wasn't 17 or Piccolo that got it...

[Lord Beerus]

3. The new forms that Goku has obtained exclusively in Super are NOT Super Saiyan forms. Super Saiyan Blue stacked with Kaioken isn't a new form as it is more of a power up of a previous form. And Ultra Instinct is a self movement martial arts technique that can only be attained by users of God Ki. It isn't tied to Super Saiyan at all.

I mean sure, but it doesn't matter. Who gets this "power-up-for-all"? A Saiyan. Which Saiyan? Goku, of course... so it may as well be another SS form for him. He's the only one who got it and will stay like this probably for a long time (if not forever). Wasn't 17 or Piccolo that got it...

But Ultra Instinct not a Super Saiyan. Like... at all. That's like saying the Kaioken is a Super Saiyan form because only Goku has used it and mastered it.

[Basaku]

But Ultra Instinct not a Super Saiyan. Like... at all. That's like saying the Kaioken is a Super Saiyan form because only Goku has used it and mastered it.

The point is that Goku's getting new transformations, designs and all da merch. Names don't even matter. What was even the point of NOT making it a SSJ form if they knew they weren't going to give it to a non-Saiyan lol? Of course you're correct that it's not an SSJ form, but it's still a brand new power-up transformation that only Goku got. And along with it all the focus, toys etc.

[Lord Beerus]

But Ultra Instinct not a Super Saiyan. Like... at all. That's like saying the Kaioken is a Super Saiyan form because only Goku has used it and mastered it.

The point is that Goku's getting new transformations, designs and all da merch. Names don't even matter. What was even the point of NOT making it a SSJ form if they knew they weren't going to give it to a non-Saiyan lol? Of course you're correct that it's not an SSJ form, but it's still a brand new power-up transformation that only Goku got. And along with it all the focus, toys etc.

Because Ultra Instinct doesn't have a Saiyan origin. It's a self movement martial arts technique that can be attained by any being through intense training and unique circumstances.

[Basaku]

can be attained by any being

And yet, it just so happened that Toriyama/Toei wrote it so that only Goku attained it = just another transformation for Goku, right at the show's end for the time being. So yeah.

[Vegeta_Sama]

can be attained by any being

And yet, it just so happened that Toriyama/Toei wrote it so that only Goku attained it = just another transformation for Goku, right at the show's end for the time being. So yeah.

Who knows why. Maybe he's the main character or something like that?

[Basaku]

can be attained by any being

And yet, it just so happened that Toriyama/Toei wrote it so that only Goku attained it = just another transformation for Goku, right at the show's end for the time being. So yeah.

Who knows why. Maybe he's the main character or something like that?

Who already got not one but 2 shiny new forms during the current 'era' of DB? I mean really, at this point it's just getting utterly predictable and banal. Giving UI to Gohan, 17, anyone else (maybe except Vegeta) would at least spice things up.

[Whatever]

can be attained by any being

And yet, it just so happened that Toriyama/Toei wrote it so that only Goku attained it = just another transformation for Goku, right at the show's end for the time being. So yeah.

Who knows why. Maybe he's the main character or something like that?

He is just saying that Ultra Instict being non saiyan exclusive(just like Kaioken and Ultimate)is pointless if only saiyans are the one to get it.
Also Goku's new form seems to give him access to Ultra Instict just like the god forms gave him access to god ki instead of the form being Ultra Instict itself.

[Vegeta_Sama]

And yet, it just so happened that Toriyama/Toei wrote it so that only Goku attained it = just another transformation for Goku, right at the show's end for the time being. So yeah.

Who knows why. Maybe he's the main character or something like that?

Who already got not one but 2 shiny new forms during the current 'era' of DB? I mean really, at this point it's just getting utterly predictable and banal. Giving UI to Gohan, 17, anyone else (maybe except Vegeta) would at least spice things up.

Maybe you don't realize how popular Goku really is since everyone here complains about him, but he's a cultural icon in Japan. The fans' outrage would be huge is he wasn't the one to get a brand new transformation. Besids, from a story telling point of view, it would be stupid as f to give Ultra Instinct to 17 or Piccolo. This form has been foreshadowed since RoF, by Whis to GOKU and VEGETA. Goku trained, and earned this form. What have Piccolo, Gohan, or 17 done to deserve a power stronger that the Gods?

[Vegeta_Sama]

And yet, it just so happened that Toriyama/Toei wrote it so that only Goku attained it = just another transformation for Goku, right at the show's end for the time being. So yeah.

Who knows why. Maybe he's the main character or something like that?

Also Goku's new form seems to give him access to Ultra Instict just like the god forms gave him access to god ki instead of the form being Ultra Instict itself.

There's no indication of that

[Basaku]

Who knows why. Maybe he's the main character or something like that?

Who already got not one but 2 shiny new forms during the current 'era' of DB? I mean really, at this point it's just getting utterly predictable and banal. Giving UI to Gohan, 17, anyone else (maybe except Vegeta) would at least spice things up.

Maybe you don't realize how popular Goku really is since everyone here complains about him, but he's a cultural icon in Japan. The fans' outrage would be huge is he wasn't the one to get a brand new transformation. Besids, from a story telling point of view, it would be stupid as f to give Ultra Instinct to 17 or Piccolo. This form has been foreshadowed since RoF, by Whis to GOKU and VEGETA. Goku trained, and earned this form. What have Piccolo, Gohan, or 17 done to deserve a power stronger that the Gods?

An outrage? Among the fanbase of a franchise that had one of the pivotal moments in its history, at the peak of building its worldwide phenomenon, be a supporting cast member (Gohan) recieving brand new most-powerful form and beating the main enemy? Really

[Vegeta_Sama]

Who already got not one but 2 shiny new forms during the current 'era' of DB? I mean really, at this point it's just getting utterly predictable and banal. Giving UI to Gohan, 17, anyone else (maybe except Vegeta) would at least spice things up.

Maybe you don't realize how popular Goku really is since everyone here complains about him, but he's a cultural icon in Japan. The fans' outrage would be huge is he wasn't the one to get a brand new transformation. Besids, from a story telling point of view, it would be stupid as f to give Ultra Instinct to 17 or Piccolo. This form has been foreshadowed since RoF, by Whis to GOKU and VEGETA. Goku trained, and earned this form. What have Piccolo, Gohan, or 17 done to deserve a power stronger that the Gods?

An outrage? Among the fanbase of a franchise that had one of the pivotal moments in its history, at the peak of building its worldwide phenomenon, be a supporting cast member (Gohan) recieving brand new most-powerful form and beating the main enemy? Really

Yeah, they liked Gohan so much that Toriyama had to bring Goku back from the dead