I think you'll find separating the two is far more intellectually dishonest. They were written and released as one continuous piece, with GT included on the anime side.PFM18 wrote:Yeah this is very intellectually dishonest. Not sure why you do this but you lumped Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball z together when you make these calculations and statements about not introducing a transformation until the ninth arc.
The separation of DB and Z only happened on TV, and was done both for marketing, and because of the change in showrunner. Episode 1 of Z aired one week after episode 153 of DB, just like how episode 1 of GT aired one week after episode 291 of Z. It's one continuous, 11-year run from 1986 to 1997. Deciding that only the 1989-1996 portion counts(And with some of 1989 and 1996 left out) is rather random. Granted, the fact Toriyama stepped down from writing duties on GT does merit the exclusion of that show, but deciding that the first four years of Toriyama's manga is irrelevant is just nonsensical.
Hell, the first chapter of the manga that was adapted into Z was released in the same volume as the last chapter that was adapted into DB, and Toriyama himself was unsure where the split was at many interviews after the split.
That's called an ad hominem argument, and neither addresses the points I raised, nor actually does anything to further your points. All it does is make you look petty and angry. Calm down, this discussion ultimately doesn't matter. We're just talking, and sharing opinions and facts.PFM18 wrote:You and I both know this is a conversation about DBZ and DBS not DB and you are just for some reason trying to lie to further your argument.
In Japan, it did, because the manga was published under one title.PFM18 wrote:Obviously DB didn't have transformations.
If we do address it from your point of view, you're still wrong.PFM18 wrote:Of the four arcs in Dragon Ball Z two of their plots literally boiled down to just achieving new transformations. The Namek Arc was all about achieving Super Saiyan and then the Cell arc essentially was a repetition of all the Saiyans talking about "finding a level beyond a Super Saiyan" in which there were several transformations introduced in just that one arc.
The Namek arc was a struggle for the Dragon Balls, concluding in Freeza losing his rag and deciding to just kill everybody because the balls are gone. Vegeta had been going on about the idea of a "Super Saiyan" for a long while as a bragging thing because he's really cocky, and he's jealous of Goku for being stronger than him, but ultimately it proves to be nonsense several times over. Finally, when things are at their absolute low point, and Freeza kills Kuririn, the nonsense Vegeta had been babbling about turns out to be true, and it brings about a drastic change in Goku.
The arc "Literally boiled down to just achieving new transformations" in the same sense that Star Wars literally boiled down to just shooting a bomb in a hole.
You're really grasping for technicalities there, friend.PFM18 wrote:DBS literally introduced far fewer transformations than DBZ and it isn't really even close. Before Super even started the two DBZ movies introduced two transformations and Super adapted them and literally Goku and Vegeta were using the same form that was introduced in the movie until the final episode of the entire series. Almsot the entire series consisted of SSB being the top form among the main cast. DBZ had SSJ, SSJ Grade 2, MSSJ, SSJ2, and SSJ3 among the main cast.
BOG and RF are absolutely part of Super, and counting the different grades of Super Saiyan is just silly.
With the BOG/RF argument, I could say that actually Super Saiyan was first introduced in movie 7(Z movie 4. The one with Slug). Except actually, I could go further, and say that because all Z's transformations were introduced in the manga, none of them count as happening in Z. Your entire point is that BOG and RF were adapted from a previous work, rather than the new writings seen in Super, so I could just as easily say that the only form introduced in the Z anime was the Super Kaioken, since that's the only one that was introduced in material that was exclusive to the anime, or at the very least, exclusive to the anime at the time.
Of course, I count all three original anime as being the same run, so we also have GT's Super Saiyan 4 to account for. So, all in all, the original Dragon Ball run introduced 2 new forms.
If we boil it down to its basic form(Great Saiyaman arc is part of Boo, Artificial Humans and Cell are one arc, Namek and Freeza are one arc, Baba and Red Ribbon are one arc, Garlic Jr. is part of Namek or Cell, etc.), it had Pilaf, 21st Tenkaichi, Red Ribbon, 22nd Tenkaichi, Piccolo, 23rd Tenkaichi, Saiyan, Namek, Cell, Boo, Black-Star, Baby, Super 17, Evil Dragons. 14 arcs.PFM18 wrote:they had 4 arcs and 3 of the 4 introduced atleast one new form to the cast.
But, for the sake of argument, let's set GT aside, which leaves us with 10.
Out of those 10 arcs, three introduced new forms.
If temporary forms don't count, then only the first Super Saiyan form counts, because all the others were unsustainable permanently. Especially Super Saiyan 3, which Goku couldn't hold for long at all.PFM18 wrote:with the exception of UI and SSBE that were given at the end but were really not even truly permanent forms so it hardly counts.
Actually, the Black arc did introduce Super Saiyan Rosé... And even if we narrow things to the nonsensical focus on just Z, the Saiyan arc didn't introduce any new forms, and neither did Garlic Jr. or Great Saiyaman/afterlife tournament.PFM18 wrote:The Zamasu and Universe 6 arcs introduced exactly 0 new forms to the main cast and you cant say that about DBZ.
Dragon Ball Z introduced three transformations. One was a twist at the end of the Freeza arc, one was something the Cell arc had built up to, and one suddenly came out of no-where and existed to be useless and stupid, with the point being that they're relying too heavily on transformations.PFM18 wrote:If any of the series can be criticized for "too many transformations" it is DBZ and not DBS. Dragon Ball Z's transformations were a big part of it and "if it ain't broke don't fix it" applies here when it comes to DBS
Super introduced the God form, which was basically just an excuse to give Goku a power boost, since the transformation itself never came back after BOG, the Blue form, which was basically an excuse to turn the God form into a transformation instead of a power-up, the Rosé form, which was basically just there so Black could look distinct, the Blue Rage form, which is just there so Trunks can be relevant, the Ultra Instinct and Mastered Ultra Instinct forms(They have different designs, they're different forms. Deal with it), which are kind of just there to give Goku another power boost, and the Green form, which is so Broly can be canon without the baggage of actually making Broly canon.
That's actually about 8 forms.
If we exclude the Rosé, Green, and Blue Rage forms, because I know you'll give me crap for that, then that's still 5 forms. Nearly twice the number introduced in Toriyama's original manga. And yet while Toriyama's manga ran for 11 years, Super's been running for just over 2.
Hell, Z alone only ran on TV for about 6 years, which averages to about one transformation every 2 years, while Super averages to about one transformation every 5 months...
Apologies for the long post. There was a lot to unpack there, and I assumed you'd want a full response.