Is Ultra Instinct Goku’s final transformation?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Robo4900
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Re: Is Ultra Instinct Goku’s final transformation?

Post by Robo4900 » Sun May 06, 2018 8:37 pm

PFM18 wrote:Yeah this is very intellectually dishonest. Not sure why you do this but you lumped Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball z together when you make these calculations and statements about not introducing a transformation until the ninth arc.
I think you'll find separating the two is far more intellectually dishonest. They were written and released as one continuous piece, with GT included on the anime side.
The separation of DB and Z only happened on TV, and was done both for marketing, and because of the change in showrunner. Episode 1 of Z aired one week after episode 153 of DB, just like how episode 1 of GT aired one week after episode 291 of Z. It's one continuous, 11-year run from 1986 to 1997. Deciding that only the 1989-1996 portion counts(And with some of 1989 and 1996 left out) is rather random. Granted, the fact Toriyama stepped down from writing duties on GT does merit the exclusion of that show, but deciding that the first four years of Toriyama's manga is irrelevant is just nonsensical.
Hell, the first chapter of the manga that was adapted into Z was released in the same volume as the last chapter that was adapted into DB, and Toriyama himself was unsure where the split was at many interviews after the split.
PFM18 wrote:You and I both know this is a conversation about DBZ and DBS not DB and you are just for some reason trying to lie to further your argument.
That's called an ad hominem argument, and neither addresses the points I raised, nor actually does anything to further your points. All it does is make you look petty and angry. Calm down, this discussion ultimately doesn't matter. We're just talking, and sharing opinions and facts.
PFM18 wrote:Obviously DB didn't have transformations.
In Japan, it did, because the manga was published under one title.
PFM18 wrote:Of the four arcs in Dragon Ball Z two of their plots literally boiled down to just achieving new transformations. The Namek Arc was all about achieving Super Saiyan and then the Cell arc essentially was a repetition of all the Saiyans talking about "finding a level beyond a Super Saiyan" in which there were several transformations introduced in just that one arc.
If we do address it from your point of view, you're still wrong.
The Namek arc was a struggle for the Dragon Balls, concluding in Freeza losing his rag and deciding to just kill everybody because the balls are gone. Vegeta had been going on about the idea of a "Super Saiyan" for a long while as a bragging thing because he's really cocky, and he's jealous of Goku for being stronger than him, but ultimately it proves to be nonsense several times over. Finally, when things are at their absolute low point, and Freeza kills Kuririn, the nonsense Vegeta had been babbling about turns out to be true, and it brings about a drastic change in Goku.

The arc "Literally boiled down to just achieving new transformations" in the same sense that Star Wars literally boiled down to just shooting a bomb in a hole.
PFM18 wrote:DBS literally introduced far fewer transformations than DBZ and it isn't really even close. Before Super even started the two DBZ movies introduced two transformations and Super adapted them and literally Goku and Vegeta were using the same form that was introduced in the movie until the final episode of the entire series. Almsot the entire series consisted of SSB being the top form among the main cast. DBZ had SSJ, SSJ Grade 2, MSSJ, SSJ2, and SSJ3 among the main cast.
You're really grasping for technicalities there, friend.
BOG and RF are absolutely part of Super, and counting the different grades of Super Saiyan is just silly.
With the BOG/RF argument, I could say that actually Super Saiyan was first introduced in movie 7(Z movie 4. The one with Slug). Except actually, I could go further, and say that because all Z's transformations were introduced in the manga, none of them count as happening in Z. Your entire point is that BOG and RF were adapted from a previous work, rather than the new writings seen in Super, so I could just as easily say that the only form introduced in the Z anime was the Super Kaioken, since that's the only one that was introduced in material that was exclusive to the anime, or at the very least, exclusive to the anime at the time.
Of course, I count all three original anime as being the same run, so we also have GT's Super Saiyan 4 to account for. So, all in all, the original Dragon Ball run introduced 2 new forms. ;)
PFM18 wrote:they had 4 arcs and 3 of the 4 introduced atleast one new form to the cast.
If we boil it down to its basic form(Great Saiyaman arc is part of Boo, Artificial Humans and Cell are one arc, Namek and Freeza are one arc, Baba and Red Ribbon are one arc, Garlic Jr. is part of Namek or Cell, etc.), it had Pilaf, 21st Tenkaichi, Red Ribbon, 22nd Tenkaichi, Piccolo, 23rd Tenkaichi, Saiyan, Namek, Cell, Boo, Black-Star, Baby, Super 17, Evil Dragons. 14 arcs.
But, for the sake of argument, let's set GT aside, which leaves us with 10.
Out of those 10 arcs, three introduced new forms.
PFM18 wrote:with the exception of UI and SSBE that were given at the end but were really not even truly permanent forms so it hardly counts.
If temporary forms don't count, then only the first Super Saiyan form counts, because all the others were unsustainable permanently. Especially Super Saiyan 3, which Goku couldn't hold for long at all.
PFM18 wrote:The Zamasu and Universe 6 arcs introduced exactly 0 new forms to the main cast and you cant say that about DBZ.
Actually, the Black arc did introduce Super Saiyan Rosé... And even if we narrow things to the nonsensical focus on just Z, the Saiyan arc didn't introduce any new forms, and neither did Garlic Jr. or Great Saiyaman/afterlife tournament.
PFM18 wrote:If any of the series can be criticized for "too many transformations" it is DBZ and not DBS. Dragon Ball Z's transformations were a big part of it and "if it ain't broke don't fix it" applies here when it comes to DBS
Dragon Ball Z introduced three transformations. One was a twist at the end of the Freeza arc, one was something the Cell arc had built up to, and one suddenly came out of no-where and existed to be useless and stupid, with the point being that they're relying too heavily on transformations.

Super introduced the God form, which was basically just an excuse to give Goku a power boost, since the transformation itself never came back after BOG, the Blue form, which was basically an excuse to turn the God form into a transformation instead of a power-up, the Rosé form, which was basically just there so Black could look distinct, the Blue Rage form, which is just there so Trunks can be relevant, the Ultra Instinct and Mastered Ultra Instinct forms(They have different designs, they're different forms. Deal with it), which are kind of just there to give Goku another power boost, and the Green form, which is so Broly can be canon without the baggage of actually making Broly canon.

That's actually about 8 forms.
If we exclude the Rosé, Green, and Blue Rage forms, because I know you'll give me crap for that, then that's still 5 forms. Nearly twice the number introduced in Toriyama's original manga. And yet while Toriyama's manga ran for 11 years, Super's been running for just over 2.
Hell, Z alone only ran on TV for about 6 years, which averages to about one transformation every 2 years, while Super averages to about one transformation every 5 months...

Apologies for the long post. There was a lot to unpack there, and I assumed you'd want a full response.
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Re: Is Ultra Instinct Goku’s final transformation?

Post by ZeroNeonix » Sun May 06, 2018 9:32 pm

Robo4900 wrote:If Dragon Ball was all about producing a good story, Super Saiyan God would have likely been Goku's final transformation. Possibly not even that.

But, with Toei and Shueisha at the wheel, the franchise is all about merchandising these days.

So, no. I imagine the new film will introduce one, and we'll get at least one sometime after Super comes back for its second run(Though, I'd guess at least two).
On the contrary, after reading interviews from the TOEI staff, it seems clear to me that most of Super's best moments were by TOEI. Toriyama provides the barebones outline of major plotpoints, and TOEI are the one's putting their passion into it. Many of them were Dragon Ball fans as kids. For example, Ribrianne's idealized concept of love versus Android 18's real world love, TOEI's idea. Frieza sharing his energy with Goku, harkening back to when Goku did the same for him on Namek, TOEI's idea.

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Re: Is Ultra Instinct Goku’s final transformation?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri May 11, 2018 6:37 pm

If there must be further transformations past Ultra Instinct, I think diverging a new line of forms from Ultra Instinct in ways beyond "stronger" would be the best path to take.

I've been fiddling with the idea of combining different techniques and abilities into the Ultra Instinct; it could be excused as Goku learning how to instinctually utilize such abilities to improve his Ultra Instinct past its base complete state.

One such example of this thought process of mine is "Instantaneous Ultra Instinct", a variation on Ultra Instinct where Goku's body can instinctually utilize Instantaneous Movement and thus be effectively untouchable as he's constantly teleporting and reacting too fast for opponents to predict where he'll teleport to to interrupt. Stuff like this that aren't purely increasing the power gap are stuff I hope will come after Ultra Instinct if there will indeed be further forms.

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