Do you think a guidebook would...

[Marlowe89]

So you are referencing a game and a manga that was meant for the movie?

That doesn't particularly matter because there is zero evidence that it was changed for the show, at least not initially. As I previously mentioned in the post you responded to, Goku specifically defined Super Saiyan Blue as a "Super Saiyan of a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God" (Suupaa Saiya-jin Goddo no pawaa wo motta Saiya-jin no Suupaa Saiya-jin) in Episode 24, which is consistent with how those materials defined the form. This all strongly implies that Goku was originally intended to be that powerful in his base form -- otherwise there would be no "Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God" to speak of, despite that line being present in the Super anime as well.

Moreover, the wording of your post implied that there was no precedent for believing base Goku to be that strong, which is just demonstrably false.

[PFM18]

So you are referencing a game and a manga that was meant for the movie?

That doesn't particularly matter because there is zero evidence that it was changed for the anime, at least not initially. As I previously mentioned in the post you responded to, Goku specifically defined Super Saiyan Blue as a "Super Saiyan of a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God" (Suupaa Saiya-jin Goddo no pawaa wo motta Saiya-jin no Suupaa Saiya-jin) in Episode 24, which is consistent with how those materials defined the form. This all strongly implies that Goku was originally intended to be that powerful in his base form -- otherwise there would be no "Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God" to speak of, despite that line being present in the anime as well.

Moreover, the wording of your post implied that there was no precedent for believing base Goku to be that strong, which is just demonstrably false.

That phrasing is also consistent with what was shown which was that Goku's golden haired SSJ had the power of a Super Saiyan God. Goku had the power of SSG in his SSJ form and he went beyond it by going SSB. This SSG power was just what he possessed as a normal SSJ, as what beerus and Goku established in their fight. There was absolutey no precedent in the DBS anime that this was the case. Beerus said that goku infused the power in him and had the same power when Goku was in his normal SSJ. If Goku had gained the power of SSG in his base when this absorption ocurred, then he would have gotten dramatically stronger upon going super saiyan. (50x stronger) Goku looks down and says that he didnt notice because he said that he didnt get WEAKER. He didnt get stronger or atleast much stronger at all. At this moment they established that:

SSJ ~ SSG

and the anime never gave any reason to think otherwise.

[Marlowe89]

That phrasing is also consistent with what was shown which was that Goku's golden haired SSJ had the power of a Super Saiyan God.

Not really. Goku's definition in Episode 24 contains the "Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God" root, which makes no reference to the initial Super Saiyan stage, and then a "Super Saiyan of" modifier, which refers to Super Saiyan Blue. This directly corroborates the aforementioned materials for the movie. The root descriptor wouldn't be present at all if Goku didn't possess that power in his base form, and you can't say it describes Goku's Super Saiyan form because there's already a Super Saiyan modifier for it in the statement itself (which, again, results in Blue).

That's the precedent, and it's available right there in the show. The BoG arc doesn't apply to Goku's growth by the time of RoF so it's actually completely irrelevant. That level of strength was likely integrated into his base power as a result of Whis' training in the movie, and as far as we know, the same is true of the anime.

[Saturnine]

SSJ ~ SSG

and the anime never gave any reason to think otherwise.

It did. Cabba was not 440x stronger than SSj3 Goku in base, nor was Future Trunks. Scenes where Goku measures himself against Future Trunks suggest that they're not far beyond the Cell Games realm of power.

SBG was retired and brought back into the SSJ God tier when that transformation appeared again, that's what happened.

[Meshack]

I hate that people say that Super retconned the movies when it didn’t. Super doesn’t do anything but just expand on what the movies say.

[Grimlock]

I hate that people say that Super retconned the movies when it didn’t. Super doesn’t do anything but just expand on what the movies say.

While obviously the retellings didn't retcon nor are "more valid" than the movies indeed, they do actually create new continuities. Using me as example, I can't use Toei's or Toyotaro's take on those events when I prefer and consider the movies, there's no much of a difference story-wise (as far as I can remember), but "minor" stuff like where they celebrate Bulma's birthday cannot be put in the same bag; the characters were either at Capsule Corporation or in a cruise ship, not in both locations at the same time, for example.

[Lord Beerus]

I'd like a guidebook to explain what the hell Super Saiyan Rage is and how God ki works.

[PFM18]

That phrasing is also consistent with what was shown which was that Goku's golden haired SSJ had the power of a Super Saiyan God.

Not really. Goku's definition in Episode 24 contains the "Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God" root, which makes no reference to the initial Super Saiyan stage, and then a "Super Saiyan of" modifier, which refers to Super Saiyan Blue. This directly corroborates the aforementioned materials for the movie. The root descriptor wouldn't be present at all if Goku didn't possess that power in his base form, and you can't say it describes Goku's Super Saiyan form because there's already a Super Saiyan modifier for it in the statement itself (which, again, results in Blue).

That's the precedent, and it's available right there in the show. The BoG arc doesn't apply to Goku's growth by the time of RoF so it's actually completely irrelevant. That level of strength was likely integrated into his base power as a result of Whis' training in the movie, and as far as we know, the same is true of the anime.

If things were to be taken as literally as that "Saiyan with a power of a Super Saiyan God that goes Super Saiyan" then whenever they go Super Saiyan after they infused the god power they would have gone SSB. Therefore, when Goku dropped out of SSG and absorbed the power and went SSJ then by that definition he just went normal SSJ. And they use SSJ after having this godly base(though without God ki don't get it twisted) this wouldn't be possible if the strictest possible interpretation was used. Goku has the "power of a Super Saiyan God" in his normal SSJ form, that was established in episodes 14-15. Goku didn't notice a difference when he went from SSG -> SSJ, and if his Base was ~ then he would have gotten 50x stronger, but he didn't.

If Goku's power up in BoG doesn't apply to ROF then it would have made no sense for Goku to make a comment on how Vegeta has gotten massively stronger than he was before and "may have" surpassed him. That would have made no sense had Goku not retained the power because prior to that they had similar strength. Goku, got an enormously massive power up after fighting Beerus and infusing the power that he was surprised that Vegeta was able to catch up to him just by training with Whis for 6 months. This is further reinforced when Goku emphasizes that Vegeta did it "on his own" because Goku didn't do it on his own he did with the help of 5 other Saiyans in that ritual. Vegeta didn't. that was that entire plot point. Had Goku not retained the strength he achieved as a golden SSJ against Beerus then none of this would make any sense.

SSJ ~ SSG

and the anime never gave any reason to think otherwise.

It did. Cabba was not 440x stronger than SSj3 Goku in base, nor was Future Trunks. Scenes where Goku measures himself against Future Trunks suggest that they're not far beyond the Cell Games realm of power.

SBG was retired and brought back into the SSJ God tier when that transformation appeared again, that's what happened.

As far as I can remember Trunks didn't imply that he was anywhere close to his Cell games strength. This wouldn't even make sense. Trunks said that Goku Black was a bigger threat than Majin Buu and that he is stronger than him etc, and yet Trunks was able to atleast compete with him. If he was still at his Cell games level then he wouldn't have been able to compete with somebody stronger than Buu. Besides, we haven't seen Trunks for 13 years since he showed up in the Android Arc. He was obviously training for these 13 years and half breeds are supposed to have more potential anyhow so there's no reason why he shouldn't have been able to get massively stronger.

There's nothing to indicate that Cabba can't be 440x stronger than SSJ3 Goku. the U6 Saiyans are apparently just stronger and they evolved differently and what not. It is just the nature of the series that later "enemies" are going to be far stronger than the ones that were fought before. It would make no sense for Cabba to not have formidable strength and be above the level of strength that was displayed in DBZ. Based on what the series has shown us Cabba is hundreds of times stronger than the Buu Saga iteratioon of Goku in his highest form. That is just what is implied in the series, you can like it or you could not.

I hate that people say that Super retconned the movies when it didn’t. Super doesn’t do anything but just expand on what the movies say.

I mean they did retcon the movies in some ways. They were meant to be there with the rest of the DBS series in mind. The movies just weren't. That is why the comment about Beerus using 70% of his power was eliminated because Beerus had to be way stronger than that for him to stay relevant in strength when the story progresses. Other things were changed too and they align more with the continuity with DBS, so yes in a sense the movies were retconned.

[Marlowe89]

If things were to be taken as literally as that "Saiyan with a power of a Super Saiyan God that goes Super Saiyan" then whenever they go Super Saiyan after they infused the god power they would have gone SSB.

Exactly. The entire point made by Volume 'F', Dokkan Battle, and the Resurrection 'F' manga is that Goku's "Super Saiyan of a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God" definition is nothing less than an absolute literal description of the form. This statement is present in both the Resurrection 'F' film itself and its corresponding arc in the Super anime, so it certainly wasn't changed in-between the movie and its TV adaptation. We don't see Goku and Vegeta using the yellow Super Saiyan forms again until after the RoF arc concludes, so the retcon would've needed to have occurred within Super itself.

There's also no such thing as a "figurative" interpretation of that statement. It simply means what it means.

If Goku's power up in BoG doesn't apply to ROF then it would have made no sense for Goku to make a comment on how Vegeta has gotten massively stronger than he was before and "may have" surpassed him.

You're actually reinforcing my whole point here, because Vegeta was in his base state when Goku made that remark. The Super Saiyan power-up in BoG is irrelevant -- it was overrided by Goku's base form in the movies, and it was likewise overrided just the same in the anime. That was the intention and nothing contradicts it within the arc itself.

[PFM18]

If things were to be taken as literally as that "Saiyan with a power of a Super Saiyan God that goes Super Saiyan" then whenever they go Super Saiyan after they infused the god power they would have gone SSB.

Exactly. The entire point made by Volume 'F', Dokkan Battle, and the Resurrection 'F' manga is that Goku's "Super Saiyan of a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God" definition is nothing less than an absolute literal description of the form. This statement is present in both the Resurrection 'F' film itself and its corresponding arc in the Super anime, so it certainly wasn't changed in-between the movie and its TV adaptation. We don't see Goku and Vegeta using the yellow Super Saiyan forms again until after the RoF arc concludes, so the retcon would've needed to have occurred within Super itself.

There's also no such thing as a "figurative" interpretation of that statement. It simply means what it means.

If Goku's power up in BoG doesn't apply to ROF then it would have made no sense for Goku to make a comment on how Vegeta has gotten massively stronger than he was before and "may have" surpassed him.

You're actually reinforcing my whole point here, because Vegeta was in his base state when Goku made that remark. The Super Saiyan power-up in BoG is irrelevant -- it was overrided by Goku's base form in the movies, and it was likewise overrided just the same in the anime. That was the intention and nothing contradicts it within the arc itself.

Ok but this can be rationalized without a retcon especially when you pay attention to the end of BoG where Goku is a normal SSJ and Beerus and Goku have this conversation about Goku still has the power of a SSG anyway. If Base ~ SSG then this would not have been the case. Since SSJ ~ SSG then Goku can find a way to use God ki and gain Super Saiyan on top of the SSG power he had before but still use the normal SSJ that we have seen since Namek.

Obviously Vegeta was in his base state when Goku made that remark. They are comparing each other's bases. Both Bases are extremely strong but still weaker than SSG in BoG but Goku's is weaker than Vegeta's and after the tremendous boost Goku received after BoG he is immensely surprised that Vegeta was able to catch up in 6 months.And Goku never would have said Vegeta's strength was unrecognizable from what it was before. If Goku did not retain the boost these comments of his would have made no sense.

to reference quantifiable numbers, when Goku shows up and comments on how strong Vegeta's base was, I estimate his base to be around 800x stronger than SSJ3 Goku form the Buu saga but still a far cry from SSG unless he goes SSJ.

[majinwarman]

I'd like a guidebook to explain what the hell Super Saiyan Rage is and how God ki works.

I agree!

[Marlowe89]

Ok but this can be rationalized without a retcon

It can't unless you flat-out ignore Goku's stated definition for Blue or suppose the existence of two bases, neither of which are plausible or logical at all. Any conversation between Goku and Beerus in BoG is, once again, completely irrelevant since RoF occurs after that arc. Goku and Vegeta go through a whole training period afterwards, which already makes it susceptible to becoming outdated information.

As I've already (thoroughly) laid out, the movie, supplemental materials for the movie, and even the anime itself all presuppose the existence of a base state with the power of a Super Saiyan God and a Super Saiyan version of that state which results in Super Saiyan Blue. That's all there is to it and it was clearly the original intention of both the film and Super's TV adaptation, whether you want it to be or not.

They are comparing each other's bases.

This assumption is totally unfounded. Goku wouldn't have entertained the idea of base Vegeta "already" surpassing him or being unrecognizable if he was just comparing him to his own base state; that would nonsensically undermine the colloquialism of Goku's remarks.

[PFM18]

Ok but this can be rationalized without a retcon

It can't unless you flat-out ignore Goku's stated definition for Blue or suppose the existence of two bases, neither of which are plausible or logical at all. Any conversation between Goku and Beerus in BoG is, once again, completely irrelevant since RoF occurs after that arc. Goku and Vegeta go through a whole training period afterwards, which already makes it susceptible to becoming outdated information.

As I've already (thoroughly) laid out, the movie, supplemental materials for the movie, and even the anime itself all presuppose the existence of a base state with the power of a Super Saiyan God and a Super Saiyan version of that state which results in Super Saiyan Blue. That's all there is to it and it was clearly the original intention of both the film and Super's TV adaptation, whether you want it to be or not.

They are comparing each other's bases.

This assumption is totally unfounded. Goku wouldn't have entertained the idea of base Vegeta "already" surpassing him or being unrecognizable if he was just comparing him to his own base state; that would nonsensically undermine the colloquialism of Goku's remarks.

Goku's definition of the SSB state still fits with what I proposed and it fits with what was established in BoG. Why would it suddenly not matter that Goku infused this power because some time has elapsed and RoF happened. The training improved upon the strength Goku achieved in BoG. Otherwise Goku stating that Vegeta got his power "on his own" would make no sense.(since Goku did not gain his strength on his own it was a result of the ritual. So he was impressed with Vegeta who trumped him without the ritual. that was the whole point of the dialogue.) Or the comment about how Vegeta's strength is unrecognizable from before would make no sense if you are disregarding BoG because then Vegeta wouldn't have had much grown to make up had Goku not retained the boost he received in BoG. The idea that RoF invalidates the BoG fight between Goku and Beerus and the conversations that happened between them, makes absolutely no sense.

The movie material is overwritten by the actual DBS series and it is very vague with the wording anyway and so you can't make any definitive statements about it. SSGSS was pretty much a meme because it was so vague, so to say that it definitely means what you are interpreting it as is kind of strange.

The assumption that Goku was comparing bases is definitely a rational assumption. If you are stronger in base, then you are stronger in SSJ, so obviously if Goku compares Vegeta's base to his own then if Vegeta goes SSJ then that would mean Vegeta would obviously surpass the SSG that was displayed in BoG. If Vegeta surpassed him in base, then he surpassed him as a SSJ because the fact that the multipliers are the same for both of them dictates that to be the case.

Besides, if Goku and Vegeta's bases were stronger than SSG then the U6 arc would have completely invalidated the BoG arc and Beerus's intrigue with the power of a SSG if Cabba, Magetta, and Frost can all compete with this base that is stronger than SSG. They were all weaker than Goku and Vegeta's SSJ so they were weaker than SSG, and Beerus's intrigue still makes sense.

[ekrolo2]

A guidebook should totally get made, it'd be the best comedy ever written. Even better than Hitchikers Guide.

On a more serious note, yes, I do think that Super will get something like the Perfect Files or Daizenshuu down the line. Whether or not it can successfuly explain anything at all, not just the weights thing, is up in the air. Personally? I think there's a statistically better chance of me becoming the next pope.

[PFM18]

A guidebook should totally get made, it'd be the best comedy ever written. Even better than Hitchikers Guide.

On a more serious note, yes, I do think that Super will get something like the Perfect Files or Daizenshuu down the line. Whether or not it can successfuly explain anything at all, not just the weights thing, is up in the air. Personally? I think there's a statistically better chance of me becoming the next pope.

as in the chance of them making a guide is really low or the chance that they successfully explain anything? If the latter, then why?

[ekrolo2]

A guidebook should totally get made, it'd be the best comedy ever written. Even better than Hitchhiker's Guide.

On a more serious note, yes, I do think that Super will get something like the Perfect Files or Daizenshuu down the line. Whether or not it can successfully explain anything at all, not just the weights thing, is up in the air. Personally? I think there's a statistically better chance of me becoming the next pope.

as in the chance of them making a guide is really low or the chance that they successfully explain anything? If the latter, then why?

A guide will probably happen, they won't manage to explain much, I think. A lot of Super is self-contradictory like how completing UI means abandoning anything but absolute focus on the battle but then getting mad over your nakama being hurt makes completed UI stronger or just not very well thought out. There's also the fact Super has copious amounts of "exposition" and the vast, vast, vast majority of it is, like I already said, self-contradictory or just flat out pointless.

"Kefla's power is growing even bigger!" Says Cabba for the twentieth time in her fight with Goku as though we're all pants shitting retards who don't get that: screaming moron + big aura = more power.

At best, the guidebook would sound like the myriad of headcanons you use get tossed around for Super: considerable use of semantics on a case by case basis that, when taken as a whole, resembles a mad scramble to make sense of BS and not anything approaching an actual, cohesive answer.

[Meshack]

I'd like a guidebook to explain what the hell Super Saiyan Rage is and how God ki works.

We already know what it is. Super Saiyan Rage is just a powered up version of Trunks’s Super Saiyan 2. It’s his power of rage with the SS2 form

[Grimlock]

We already know what it is. Super Saiyan Rage is just a powered up version of Trunks’s Super Saiyan 2. It’s his power of rage with the SS2 form

And where did you take that from? How do you explain the absence of the lightnings and the blue aura?

[Meshack]

We already know what it is. Super Saiyan Rage is just a powered up version of Trunks’s Super Saiyan 2. It’s his power of rage with the SS2 form

And where did you take that from? And how do you explain the absence of the lightnings and the blue aura?

No where other than that one card for Super Dragon Ball Heroes was it called Super Saiyan Rage. The closet we got was Gowasu calling it “the power of rage”. Merchandise, including Dokkan Battle and the Bluray Box info, called it either Super Trunks or Super Saiyan 2 Trunks.

[Marlowe89]

The idea that RoF invalidates the BoG fight between Goku and Beerus and the conversations that happened between them, makes absolutely no sense.

You're completely missing the point. I'm not saying it invalidates/retcons them, but it does override them. As both movies demonstrate, Goku absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God into his Super Saiyan form and would later be able to utilize that same power "without changing form" at all according to the supplemental materials for Resurrection 'F'. As confirmed by Episode 24's dialogue, the same is obviously true for the anime. Goku remarking on Vegeta's growth is still entirely intact because Vegeta never transformed or absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God during BoG and had a lot of catching up to do as a result.

The only thing that's never quite clearly explained is how the Saiyans learned to adapt that power into their base forms, and the movie doesn't go into detail on this either. It's still precisely what happened though.

The movie material is overwritten by the actual DBS series and it is very vague with the wording anyway

The actual Japanese wording isn't vague at all, and those materials for the movie provide further context for Blue's description which is present in both the film and its TV adaptation. Goku's dialogue isn't suddenly going to mean something completely different in Super, nor is that possible in the first place because the phrasing itself is too specific in its intended meaning. That part wasn't overwritten at all within the RoF arc.

I'm not sure how many different ways I can repeat this. I can make definitive statements about it because the statement I'm referring to is definitive in itself.

The assumption that Goku was comparing bases is definitely a rational assumption.

It's a totally nonsensical assumption given Goku's phrasing, and I can assure you that the intended meaning of Goku's statement wasn't "Wow Vegeta, you're so strong I almost didn't recognize you... but only if we're using the same form!" -- that isn't even remotely colloquially coherent. The base Vegeta in that scene was unrecognizable to him in general, not """unrecognizable""" only on the condition that Goku doesn't transform (whatever that means).

Besides, if Goku and Vegeta's bases were stronger than SSG then the U6 arc would have completely invalidated the BoG arc and Beerus's intrigue with the power of a SSG if Cabba, Magetta, and Frost can all compete with this base that is stronger than SSG. They were all weaker than Goku and Vegeta's SSJ so they were weaker than SSG, and Beerus's intrigue still makes sense.

People have already addressed the U6 arc and its relation to the retcon in this very thread, so I'm not sure why you would even bring this up unless you're just being deliberately obtuse about it.