Toyotarou tracing thread

[Amir]

Why is the entire fandom going mad over one meaningless trace? Is it really such a big deal when some artist traces once in a while?

And why do people say he lacks creativity? Because he traced once? Come on.

[Cold Skin]

Please, since when poses and stances are copyrighted or something?
What should we bash for laziness and creativity then, the Kame Hame Ha or the Hadoken? Because it sure looks like someone watched the other and said it looks cool, when the inspiration may be even way older than that.

And if a character from another franchise does the Goku or Vegeta fighting stance, do we make a scandal too?
Or do we simply say "nice choice of inspiration source", end of the discussion, like we should?

Should we start saying Fighterz has no creativity because Zamasu can fly like Magneto, "how lazy from the designers" then ?
Should we say that every hero who lands with one knee on the floor and a fist to the ground is lazy and lash out on the designer for doing what's been done before?

How many poses can you come up with that never existed before? EVERYTHING will always be copied/inspired from something else, whether consciously or not.
Might as well sometimes take things from others and say "that will look cool on MY character too, so let's just take it as is and make a new fanbase enjoy it too".

No harm done, just like when you cover a song and simply change the voice to have another artist instead with another fanbase.
Credits that nobody reads will mention it, but when played on the radio or TV, no message will say "I didn't invent this and just reused someone's creation applied to my own business" and thousands of people will just think the new artist is a genius for creating this from scratch. That's the way it is and that's fair, that's the game.

If I was an artist and someone drew a character from another franchise with the exact same angle and position, I wouldn't be offended unless that person clearly stated somewhere "I'm so creative, look at the position and angle I imagined all by myself". Referencing other material doesn't need a statement saying "I referenced this", you just do copy what someone else did and people have to figure out by themselves where it comes from and say "okay, that's a compliment to this original production". Some things are good being just a melting pot of various good things that existed before and that a whole audience would have never enjoyed if it hadn't been covered and implemented to their favorite franchise.

When I look at that Captain America applied to Goku stuff, all I think is "nice reference for comic books fans, would have not even known if it hadn't been pointed to me". And that's it, the result is what it is and that's all that matters because again, poses and stances are not copyrighted and there can't be thousands of them, it's not like a whole sequence of a movie or a whole song.

[PsionicWarrior]

Weren't the people who blew the whole thing out of proportion the people that adamantly denied Toyo traced?

Idk, who is blowing things out of proportion between social medias posts or doing in-depth videos over-analyzing it and calling for outrage lol

What a stupid thing to do not only to trace to upload the bloody sketch too.

I still have my doubts about him tracing to begin with lol

[JazzMazz]

Weren't the people who blew the whole thing out of proportion the people that adamantly denied Toyo traced?

Idk, who is blowing things out of proportion between social medias posts or doing in-depth videos over-analyzing it and calling for outrage lol

Who do you believe those video's were made to address, and who do you think prompted the creation of those videos?

[PsionicWarrior]

Well I didn't follow the chronology but for people to deny him tracing there had to be tracing accusations in the first place didn't it lol

[sangofe]

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/trace

'There are more meanings we can trace to this word trace. As a verb, trace means to follow the course or trail of something, sometimes even chasing or hunting it. It also means to draw or sketch over a picture on translucent "tracing paper."'

I don't think toyotaro has done any tracing here.

[VegettoEX]

Just another case of fans(*cough*Geekdom101 *cough*AnimeAjay and other Twitter schmucks) blowing this out of proportion again.

This is not an appropriate way to hold a conversation. If you would like to address the points people brought up here and elsewhere, we ask that you actually address said points rather than using this kind of disingenuous nonsense.

I don't think toyotaro has done any tracing here.

There are very clear indications that he did in fact literally put a piece of paper on top of the original illustration and directly trace elements from it.

As yet another Twitter schmuck, but also one of the people responsible for this here website, I'd like to add my own two cents on the matter. Several points brought up here in the thread are directly addressed and explained, including the big "so fucking what?" question.

[Yedis]

Please, since when poses and stances are copyrighted or something?
What should we bash for laziness and creativity then, the Kame Hame Ha or the Hadoken? Because it sure looks like someone watched the other and said it looks cool, when the inspiration may be even way older than that.

And if a character from another franchise does the Goku or Vegeta fighting stance, do we make a scandal too?
Or do we simply say "nice choice of inspiration source", end of the discussion, like we should?

snip

Toyotaro's art wasn't a just a reference he drew himself, he just took someone's art traced over it and changed it around a little bit in the final art.

[Cipher]

Well I didn't follow the chronology but for people to deny him tracing there had to be tracing accusations in the first place didn't it lol

This is a bit hard to follow. Because people with expertise had to address backlash against tracing accusations, and said backlash must have come from accusations of tracing in the first place ... the idea that Toyotaro traced is suspect?

So the only way you'd accept a credible argument that he traced is if ... no one ever suggested he traced?

Anyway, this has been done to death. The proportions of the entire top half of Goku line up 1:1 with the original Captain America image, which even with careful referencing is a cosmic improbability. There's no credible doubt that Toyotaro traced over the image. The response, from there, is up to the individual. I'm in the camp that still very much likes what Toyotaro's doing with the manga, as a whole, though I hope he doesn't do this sort of thing again and think some sort of public address (unlikely) would be warranted. This matters, ethnically, business-wise, because he was taking another artist's actual line art, without permission, and reappropriating it as his own for what was essentially a paid commission. The original artist essentially drew the image that adorned V-JUMP covers all over Japan last month, and won't see a dime. It's an issue for the reason any form of plagiarism might be an issue. If it weren't a line-for-line layover (slightly further altered for the final cover, but still using the sketch as a base), it'd be a different story.

Respond as you will, but the idea that Toyotaro simply happened to line up with perfectly matching proportions, which make for 1:1 overlays with simple rotations, is ludicrous. We're only in a situation where this blew up and became any kind of controversy because people evidently lack the ability to say, "Hey, this artist I like screwed up." Really the only thing that should have come of this was a fandom-wide mantra of, "Hey, this isn't okay," followed by either a public address or simple cessation of the practice, and we could all move on with our lives.

This was cause for neither pitchforks nor vehement, unyielding denial.

In case there's still doubt over whether there was actual tracing going on, here's (as I'm sure has been posted before), one of said Twitter shmucks giving a thorough breakdown and even doing a live-demonstration to show how perfectly the line-art matches: https://youtu.be/irpTStLTqCs?t=5m5s (Like, exact proportions. Again, cosmic improbability.)

In short: Yes, this happened. Yes, it's bad. Yes, it matters. No, it doesn't mean Toyotaro has to leave the series or is an unredeemable human being/artist/whatever else.

[PsionicWarrior]

one of said Twitter shmucks giving a thorough breakdown and even doing a live-demonstration to show how perfectly the line-art matches: https://youtu.be/irpTStLTqCs?t=5m5s (Like, exact proportions. Again, cosmic improbability.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irpTStL ... e&t=31m30s I am sorry but this does not look like 1:1 to me but hey what do I know lol

In short: Yes, this happened. Yes, it's bad. Yes, it matters. No, it doesn't mean Toyotaro has to leave the series or is an unredeemable human being/artist/whatever else.

I agree with your line of thinking, but to me it's IF it happened lol

I appreciate your effort but as I said my mind won't change unless I hear a confession from Toto himself lol

[Marlowe89]

I stopped reading the manga over Toyotaro's lack of creativeness this whole debacle just underlines that. What a stupid thing to do not only to trace to upload the bloody sketch too. This is what happens when you lack ideas you'll eventually stop ripping off ideas from the own series and go beyond it.

This kind of nonsense is the opposite extreme I was referring to in the other thread. "He traced parts of a crossover image, therefore this proves he lacks any creativity in general". What a ridiculous argument to make that demonstrates not only your complete ignorance of how creative expression is cultivated, but also a slippery slope fallacy that generalizes a person's entire body of work based on one lapse in judgment.

As to the topic: I don't agree with people saying that this situation wouldn't have escalated if some Toyotaro fanboys weren't in denial about it, because that's only one side of it. Arguments similar to the post I quoted above were literally all over Twitter from the moment this was discovered, so there was as much unreasonable backlash to the artist himself as to the accusations. It would have blown up either way.

[prince212]

This community has a problem , some youtubers influence too much in people’s opinions , not letting some fans have their own thinking or just follow their friends opinions to death .
From now on, everything is gonna have bad criticism and always adding , “ he traced “.
This whole toyotaro lack of creativity is a result of that internet massive friend community against him , and don’t you dare to have a different opinion , because if you don’t share those thoughts you have no idea, your opinion is not valid .
Think about , toyo is doing a product that doesn’t have too much gap to create new characters and style of drawings, and same happen with the story telling .

[Michsi]

I feel people are a bit too quick to victimize themselves here and this probably comes from that the fact that one side of the debate is clearly larger in number and therefor those in the other camp get a little bit too defensive because the fandom at large now believes something they don't like.

People in the know, actual artists who understand the craft and how lineart works, not to mention the original artist, have addressed the issue and it's overwhelmingly for one side. You can keep believing what you want but it's unfair to accuse others of "sheep mentality" just because a lot of those people that have made a case for tracing have a lot of followers on twitter.

Criticism of Toyotarou's work has existed long before this came up and for some that were unhappy with his work, this was just the final straw.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

I stopped reading the manga over Toyotaro's lack of creativeness this whole debacle just underlines that. What a stupid thing to do not only to trace to upload the bloody sketch too. This is what happens when you lack ideas you'll eventually stop ripping off ideas from the own series and go beyond it.

This kind of nonsense is the opposite extreme I was referring to in the other thread. "He traced parts of a crossover image, therefore this proves he lacks any creativity in general". What a ridiculous argument to make that demonstrates not only your complete ignorance of how creative expression is cultivated, but also a slippery slope fallacy that generalizes a person's entire body of work based on one lapse in judgment.

As to the topic: I don't agree with people saying that this situation wouldn't have escalated if some Toyotaro fanboys weren't in denial about it, because that's only one side of it. Arguments similar to the post I quoted above were literally all over Twitter from the moment this was discovered, so there was as much unreasonable backlash to the artist himself as to the accusations. It would have blown up either way.

I think you need to calm down and re-read what I wrote before handing out lectures.

I said I had already stopped reading the Manga due to his lack of creativity (thus it was a problem I had with him long before this) and this whole debacle underlines that for me. So no I'm using this as the one and only argument like I said it's a problem I've had for a while to the point I stopped reading his work, like Michsi said this is the last straw for me I will never support his work.

[Vegeta_Sama]

Lol at people who ask "why is it a big deal?"
Not like a professional artist who works on one of the greatest franchises is cutting corners like an amateur would, using other people's work and gets payed for it. No big deal.

[Marlowe89]

I think you need to calm down and re-read what I wrote before handing out lectures.

I'm perfectly calm. I read what you wrote, and I'm explaining why it's incoherent drivel. You wouldn't be claiming that the debacle "underlines" your issues with his alleged lack of creativity if you didn't think it provided a basis for that presumption, which leads me to my point about you making hasty generalizations from an issue that is more nuanced than you're making it out to be in terms of artistic ability.

Nitpicking over my phrasing doesn't change my point, by the way. I'm not defending what Toyotaro did, and I'm not saying it isn't a very real concern.

[Nafno]

I think you need to calm down and re-read what I wrote before handing out lectures.

I'm perfectly calm. I read what you wrote, and I'm explaining why it's incoherent drivel. You wouldn't be claiming that the debacle "underlines" your issues with his alleged lack of creativity if you didn't think it provided a basis for that presumption, which leads me to my point about you making hasty generalizations from an issue that is more nuanced than you're making it out to be in terms of artistic ability.

Nitpicking over my phrasing doesn't change my point, by the way. I'm not defending what Toyotaro did, and I'm not saying it isn't a very real concern.

So what's the problem then? I share Baggie's opinion. I always thought that Toyotaro lacked creativity (and narrative skills). Consequently, seen him tracing obviously underlines my position.

How is that "unreasonable"?

[prince212]

As far as I can read in all the posts , nobody is defending what toyotaro did .
The matter of the discussion is about him to be forgiven of his sins or not .
I rather move on and don’t be biased every time new stuff is coming , adding all the time the trace thing doesn’t help to the objectivity for drawings to come .
Negativity Fandom is funny , if I don’t like something I just stop following it , but some of them keep on just to Continue pouring garbage on it , instead of looking for good things to come they look forward for bads.
If it happen that toyotaro keeps on being the manga artist for long time I think we should be able to move on in order to enjoy what we like .
Just an opinion from a normal reader , if other artist or professionals can’t move on that’s their problem , they better use their time in their products instead of criticizing other ones , that can be called to be jealousy

[Marlowe89]

So what's the problem then? I share Baggie's opinion. I always thought that Toyotaro lacked creativity (and narrative skills). Consequently, seen him tracing obviously underlines my position.

How is that "unreasonable"?

It's unreasonable because your position isn't factually based on anything, so it's obviously not underlined by anything either. You're making a connection where it doesn't exist and extrapolating a mistake to his entire line of work, regardless of whether his other stuff was previously traced or not (and as far as we know, it wasn't).

I understand why people aren't happy about it, I'm disappointed as well. Doesn't change my point. Going one step further and implying it supports a criticism that somehow extends to the entire manga is ridiculous, and nobody should take your stance seriously.

[Michsi]

So what's the problem then? I share Baggie's opinion. I always thought that Toyotaro lacked creativity (and narrative skills). Consequently, seen him tracing obviously underlines my position.

How is that "unreasonable"?

It's unreasonable because your position isn't factually based on anything, so it's obviously not underlined by anything either. You're making a connection where it doesn't exist and extrapolating a mistake to his entire line of work, regardless of whether his other stuff was previously traced or not (and as far as we know, it wasn't).

I understand why people aren't happy about it, I'm disappointed as well. Doesn't change my point. Going one step further and implying it supports a criticism that somehow extends to the entire manga is ridiculous, and nobody should take your stance seriously.

This makes no sense. You can't measure someone's opinion on something as subjective as art or storytelling in order to claim they are "factually wrong." If someone is unhappy or unimpressed with how he handles the story they have a reason for it. I haven't seen anyone here suddenly change their overall opinion of the whole manga because of this, just some that have always been dissatisfied with it and this was just the breaking point for them.