Melkaniator wrote:PFM18 wrote:I am going to address the faulty logic and biases behind a lot of these criticisms.
"All of the transformations are just lazy recolors!"
-The most iconic scene in the entire series is simply Goku changing the color of his hair from Black to Gold. Color changes being transformations is a core part of DB and DBS was just building on DBZ.
Awful example, that was ONLY 1 change of color, plus the hair rised, it changed, it had to be drawn in a different manner, unlike the lazy "new" designs in DBS.
PFM18 wrote:
The transformations in DBS aren't any more lazy than any in DBZ.
False, and I already explained why.
PFM18 wrote:
You can barely even tell the difference between SSJ and SSJ2 sometimes.
With the exception of Vegeta, when it was done right, like in Goku's case, & Cell arc Gohan, you can see how different is SS2 to SS in design by a lot.
PFM18 wrote:
SSG - A legendary ritual that brings about the inception of God Ki
#1) The ritual is embarrassingly laughable.
#2) A transformation that to this day, doesn't make sense at all.
PFM18 wrote:
SSB - A combination of the user utilizing God Ki, controlling their ki to not allow it to leak their body, and combining that with Super Saiyan.
The design is DBS' worst, however the idea is fine, or it would if it wasn't because it evolves from a senseless form.
PFM18 wrote:
SSBE - Vegeta receives this form when his priorities shifted...
Nah, this one was pulled from his ***, they didn't even tried, is Vegeta's 1st senseless acquired form.
PFM18 wrote:
Ultra Instinct-This tranformation was foreshadowed ALMOST A HUNDRED EPISODES PRIOR TO IT BEING ACHIEVED.
Technically "foreshadowed".
The form was actually created by TOEI at the start of ToP idea, and not a moment earlier.
So, it wasn't a planned foreshadowing.
PFM18 wrote:
It is creative because it is the first and only transformation that means something more than "Yeah dude like I'm faster and my punches hurt more."
We can finally agree on something.
PFM18 wrote:
I recommend you watch MasakoX's videos on color theory because he explains it better than I ever could.
No, thanks, theories on this series are just people that see stuff that it's not there 98% of the time.
Plus, an explanation on why it looks that way doesn't automatically make the designs less lazy, not one bit.
PFM18 wrote:
"It had too many transformations! Transformation fatigue!"
The main cast of characters, Goku, Vegeta etc only actually received 4 new forms:
SSB
SSG
SSBE
UI
The same as DBZ:
SSJ
ASSJ
SSJ2
SSJ3
The comparison is unnecessary, the issue is that there are more than enough from DBZ to add even more.
Power boosts shouldn't need a new design, other anime do this without transformation, they just train and reach new heights.
PFM18 wrote:
"The ToP was like 30 episodes but was supposed to only take 48 minutes! Plot hole! I can't take it seriously!"
The time seeming off is simply a result of the show's sequence of events.
No, is not, the time-limit not only is senseless, is completely unnecessary, the result was just yet another inconsistency.
PFM18 wrote:
"The power scaling is so bad! It doesn't make sense!"
Sure, there are some power scaling inconsistencies, but not much more than in DBZ, if any more at all.
False, DBZ isn't perfect, but it was never THIS bad, nor this constant.
PFM18 wrote:
For example:
-Android 17 gaining a very large power boost prior to joining the ToP. We hadn't seen Android 17 for FOURTEEN YEARS prior to this point. Considering that he had never trained in DBZ, and it had been 14 years, it is not contradicting anything for him to gain an enormous power boost.
Nice, you started with THE worst example.
Lapis' boost doesn't make sense in ANY way, it contradicts everything.
Lapis, last time we saw him he was weaker than Imperfect Cell, Goku is a lot above that by the Cell arc, then he, not only a saiya-jin, but a prodigy, got SPECIAL training in the afterlife, he gets 2 transformations after that for Buu arc that made him be on a totally different level.
As if it wasn't enough, then he got SSG, that as we know made him way above those previous forms, then he got SSB by, again, SPECIAL training out of Earth with, most likely, U7 strongest being himself, Whis.
And, of course, Lapis, who doesn't keep contact with anyone besides barely #18, and only has Earth as his training ground, can reach a level to trade punches with SSB Goku.
PFM18 wrote:
-Freeza gaining a large boost in his 4 months training.
Akira explained the why, but it's clearly a lazy excuse to have Freezer be a worthy opponent again, it's preposterous to think Freezer would reach such levels at such a small quantity of time.
PFM18 wrote:
-Future Trunks being able to compete with Goku/Vegeta who had grown astronomically more powerful than their DBZ counterparts.
It isn't THAT bad in the manga at least.
PFM18 wrote:
"There's no villains! Two of the arcs are tournament arcs!"
The thing is, 131 episodes is a lot, to only have 1 new main villain.
Awful example, that was ONLY 1 change of color, plus the hair rised, it changed, it had to be drawn in a different manner, unlike the lazy "new" designs in DBS.
and SSJG had far more changes than the Original SSJ
-the hair is slightly heightened on his head, it’s far more straightened and evenly curved, no loose hairs as opposed to base.
-Skin actually changes color
-slimmer and more lean muscles
-Proportions are lankier in the arms and legs, taller.
-face is younger
-Eyes gain pupils and change overall shape, they are far more round and soft, his angry or furrow brow expressions are less prominent.
SSJB serves it’s purpose and follows it’s description “a SSJG that turns SSJ.” That’s it’s description and that’s what it’s meant to do, it’s not trying to be something different. It’s noticeable change is that it’s skinnier than the original SSJ because of it’s preceding form SSJG’s slimness.
The other forms already have just as many changes if not more than SSJ1-3 or served their descriptions and weren’t trying to be some epic changes to the core design.
False, and I already explained why.
and that is false and I already explained why.
With the exception of Vegeta, when it was done right, like in Goku's case, & Cell arc Gohan, you can see how different is SS2 to SS in design by a lot.
there’s still a same difference if we aren’t counting Aura effects. And if we are, Super knocks it out of the park. At SSJ2 it’s literally SSJ, but spikier, and SSJ3 is SSJ2 with no eyebrows and longer hair. See how easy it is?
#1) The ritual is embarrassingly laughable.
Subjective. Vast Majority liked the Ritual and it served what it was, objectively there is nothing wrong with it. I could say the Goku twitching and growling in the Original SSJ was laughable, doesn’t deter how the transformation is executed from a critique standpoint.
#2) A transformation that to this day, doesn't make sense at all.
What part didn’t you get that was already told in the saga, going “it doesn’t make sense” without even saying why adds literally nothing to the discussion.
The design is DBS' worst, however the idea is fine, or it would if it wasn't because it evolves from a senseless form.
already explained above that it serves it’s design description. Do you expect him to have Tattoos? Sprout Wings? Get magical clothes out of nowhere? Because I really want to know what exactly you were expecting out of it.
Nah, this one was pulled from his ***, they didn't even tried, is Vegeta's 1st senseless acquired form.
“Nah, I’m going to say it’s bullshit, not going to say why it is, just cause I think it is.”
Technically "foreshadowed".
The form was actually created by TOEI at the start of ToP idea, and not a moment earlier.
So, it wasn't a planned foreshadowing.
Source? As far as I’m concerned and know you aren’t in that building to say. And I can say the same thing for SSJ and almost any other form in the series. In fact it’s hinted SSJ’s design may have been even LESS planned than UI since in an interview Toriyama said he only left SSJ uncolored to make less work on his assistant. As far as Toei they had the Lord Slug movie to throw in what Goku transformed into with “False SSJ”
The point is the concept was thought up far prior to the introduction, foreshadowing is foreshadowing. It seems you’re itching to take any points Super had for itself even if Z did literally the exact same thing if not worse.
No, thanks, theories on this series are just people that see stuff that it's not there 98% of the time.
Plus, an explanation on why it looks that way doesn't automatically make the designs less lazy, not one bit.
Dude you literally in the same comment came up with your own “theory” on UI’s design creation time.
Symbolism can add a lot to the significance of a story and design, any director worth their salt will tell you this.
The comparison is unnecessary, the issue is that there are more than enough from DBZ to add even more.
Power boosts shouldn't need a new design, other anime do this without transformation, they just train and reach new heights.
UI proves that wrong with its execution, there is no such thing as “too many transformation” outside of subjective opinion. There’s many variables, but it ultimately comes down to what purpose they serve and Super does there’s decently well. A physical change can represent a change in character very well. Objectively there is nothing wrong with transformations nor their quantity, in fact they are a plus if served well, even the best Shonen have it in SOME form or another like HxH (Godspeed and Adult Gon). It works especially well for Shonen and why it works so well. As Doctor said, the Original Super Saiyan was an iconic mark on Goku’s development.
Tell me one successful Shonen fighting manga/anime that has the main character in some form of another with 100 chapters/50 episodes that has ZERO physical change power-ups (yes this includes effects as well)
Once again this is another subjective point. I could literally say the same with Z and that any other transformation after 1 was too much.
The time seeming off is simply a result of the show's sequence of events.
As long is the time is moving progressively and there’s consistency to who is where at what times there is nothing wrong with it.
No, is not, the time-limit not only is senseless, is completely unnecessary, the result was just yet another inconsistency.
Senseless? No as stated above. Unnecessary? Maybe. Could be Toriyama and Toei parodying the 5 minutes on Namek. Inconsistency? No as my other point explained.
False, DBZ isn't perfect, but it was never THIS bad, nor this constant.
Buu arc dude, inconsistencies were all over the place early and late in the arc. Saiyan Saga had the Z Fighters get nearly 3x stronger than BOZ Goku under the SAME training he had for several years in Dragonball. In the Freeza arc, Goku magically recovers after SSJ just as much as US arc Goku, Gohan in the Cell arc did too. We have no idea why the Current Timeline Androids are stronger than the Future ones, just cause. This not even
counting some of the things the original anime did
DBS really never got bad until the Black Arc and that was mostly just Trunks on his own and the US arc, and you can argue suppression for over half of them.
Nice, you started with THE worst example.
Lapis' boost doesn't make sense in ANY way, it contradicts everything.
Lapis, last time we saw him he was weaker than Imperfect Cell, Goku is a lot above that by the Cell arc, then he, not only a saiya-jin, but a prodigy, got SPECIAL training in the afterlife, he gets 2 transformations after that for Buu arc that made him be on a totally different level.
As if it wasn't enough, then he got SSG, that as we know made him way above those previous forms, then he got SSB by, again, SPECIAL training out of Earth with, most likely, U7 strongest being himself, Whis.
And, of course, Lapis, who doesn't keep contact with anyone besides barely #18, and only has Earth as his training ground, can reach a level to trade punches with SSB Goku.
Actually if anything that’s one of the lesser factors. We have literally
no idea what happened to 17 between the Cell Saga and now. Half of what you said is generally a bunch of assumptions. We don’t know if he strictly stayed on Earth. We don’t know his training, we don’t know who he has grown to know in the past decade or so. We know jack. shit. About current 17 except that he is a park ranger and has a family.
We could flip the whole situation to if we followed 17 ever since the Cell Saga and how he had grown so strong through many sagas leading up to now, have SSJB come through Goku and learn his occupation and assume he has done fuck all besides manage a farm for the past decade.
It’s actually better than his introductory power as an Earth-made Android surpassing a supposed legend amongst a warrior race... in Z.
Akira explained the why, but it's clearly a lazy excuse to have Freezer be a worthy opponent again, it's preposterous to think Freezer would reach such levels at such a small quantity of time.
Once again offering nothing but subjectives. Objectively there is nothing wrong with the explanation, he has potential and he never trained, he was born powerful. It’s no better or worse than Zenkais for instance.
Ignoring everything else.
The entire point the OP is presenting is a bunch of Double Standards Z is held in comparison to Super. They both objectively flawed in their own ways, but they both need to be held to the same standards and looked at equally as what is done better and what is done worse. And if we look at it like that Super isn’t as far behind Z as you think.