addressing some DBS criticism

[supersaiyanZero]

The same outline, yes, but not the same outline for the movie. The outlines for DBS were specifically written for DBS.

This isn't for "no reason" their argument contradicts itself. They criticize DBS without applying the same logic to DBZ. The fact that their logic is hypocritical shows how biased they are. It is that simple.

Do you have any grasp over the term "execution"?

[PFM18]

The same outline, yes, but not the same outline for the movie. The outlines for DBS were specifically written for DBS.

This isn't for "no reason" their argument contradicts itself. They criticize DBS without applying the same logic to DBZ. The fact that their logic is hypocritical shows how biased they are. It is that simple.

Do you have any grasp over the term "execution"?

Ah It appears you've taken a page out of Marlowe's ol' "insult the opposition" routine.

Execution is irrelevant here.

[Bergamo]

This isn't for "no reason" their argument contradicts itself. They criticize DBS without applying the same logic to DBZ. The fact that their logic is hypocritical shows how biased they are. It is that simple.

Do you have any grasp over the term "execution"?

Ah It appears you've taken a page out of Marlowe's ol' "insult the opposition" routine.

Execution is irrelevant here.

If execution is irrelevant, then you are not addressing criticism of Dragon Ball Super. You are addressing people who have opinions that oppose yours and are ignoring all actual criticism by saying, "that's irrelevant." If you want to address criticism, then find a critical post and reply. Don't pointlessly attack strawmen that you have created and dismiss actual comments about the quality of DBS. I have no business providing arguments in a thread that is not devoted to debating anything.

[Marlowe89]

Ah It appears you've taken a page out of Marlowe's ol' "insult the opposition" routine.

Execution is irrelevant here.

While I appreciate your continued infatuation with me, you're going to have to explain why execution is irrelevant to an argument about these supposed double standards if this really isn't some strawman on your part, which it honestly seems to be for a lot of these points.

[Master Xar]

and SSJG had far more changes than the Original SSJ
-the hair is slightly heightened on his head, it’s far more straightened and evenly curved, no loose hairs as opposed to base.
-Skin actually changes color
-slimmer and more lean muscles
-Proportions are lankier in the arms and legs, taller.
-face is younger
-Eyes gain pupils and change overall shape, they are far more round and soft, his angry or furrow brow expressions are less prominent.

He looks younger, which is why the muscles aren't what they used to, that's connected as one, but whatever, you missed one...

...his boots transform!

(Well, just the 1st time, another inconsistency)

Yeah, I made a post about why SSG design is better than SSB on Dokkan wiki, if I find it I'll copy/paste it to you, if interested.

I'm not a fan of the look, but it's the decent one of the bunch, shame is the 2nd recolor, one was more than enough, after that it became a joke.

SSJB serves it’s purpose and follows it’s description “a SSJG that turns SSJ.” That’s it’s description and that’s what it’s meant to do, it’s not trying to be something different.

Clearly, lol.

Just a color-swap, easy merchandise.

and that is false and I already explained why.

Not really, but you made a valid point on SSG, I always say that's the only one decent design because it was some changes besides color, but I guess I skipped because the post was taking long and it forgot about it while responding.

At SSJ2 it’s literally SSJ, but spikier, and SSJ3 is SSJ2 with no eyebrows and longer hair. See how easy it is?

All I see is that you don't see the drastic changes, SS2 is not just spikier, the hair is drawn differently as a whole, specially Cell arc Gohan.

SS3 is a very drastic change from SS2.

Vast Majority liked the Ritual and it served what it was, objectively there is nothing wrong with it.

Everything is wrong with it, specially the part they provide godly ki out of their *****.

And you actually saw it as "vastly liked"?

We've hanged on different crowds I guess.

What part didn’t you get that was already told in the saga, going “it doesn’t make sense” without even saying why adds literally nothing to the discussion.

The post was long, I was just gonna get to that if someone seemed interested in knowing about it, it's already above, enjoy.

Actually, did I even really needed to say why it doesn't make sense?

Isn't obvious?

already explained above that it serves it’s design description. Do you expect him to have Tattoos? Sprout Wings? Get magical clothes out of nowhere? Because I really want to know what exactly you were expecting out of it.

^^^^^^^^
That was about me saying SSB is the worst of all.

How about anything that doesn't scream lazy?

How about anything besides a color-swap?

“Nah, I’m going to say it’s bullshit, not going to say why it is, just cause I think it is.”

Again?

It's in the episode, there's no explanation to my post necessary.

Vegeta just starts getting emotional and he pull out of his *** the form, similar to SS, but at least Goku had a zenkai moments before and saw his best friend die in front of him.

This one has Vegeta giving himself an emotional injection to push the form, empty, underwhelming, ridiculous.

I won't be surprised if this one doesn't came from Akira either, just like Trunks' SS BS.

Source? As far as I’m concerned and know you aren’t in that building to say.

I don't need to, if I posted that is because it was stated, but I'll admit I might've used the wrong source.

Because Hermes translation seems to show it was in fact by Akira, so unless I find some info, that's it.

And I can say the same thing for SSJ

You can, but in that case it would be false.

SS being not colored doesn't mean anything, it was still SS, Akira just took the chance to make his life easier with the specific design, the arc was to reach to that conclusion anyway.

It seems you’re itching to take any points Super had for itself even if Z did literally the exact same thing if not worse.

It's easy to see it that way if you're trying to defend it ALL of it, for example, bellow you defend the time given for the ToP, even though it was clearly an unnecessary mistake.

Dude you literally in the same comment came up with your own “theory” on UI’s design creation time.

False, there's no theory there, just an unreliable source.

UI proves that wrong with its execution

Not really, the result could've been the same without the "new" design.

I could literally say the same with Z and that any other transformation after 1 was too much.

And I would've agreed on that, even though I'm fine with at least 1 power up design beyond that as SS2, but SS3 was just too much IMHO.

As long is the time is moving progressively and there’s consistency to who is where at what times there is nothing wrong with it.

There's no consistency with the time given, so it's clearly a wrong move.

Senseless? No as stated above. Unnecessary? Maybe. Could be Toriyama and Toei parodying the 5 minutes on Namek. Inconsistency? No as my other point explained.

The inconveniency is still there, you can say "no" but it will remain there either way.

And the "5 minutes" in Nameku-sei is not inconsistent at all in the manga, there was stuff happening in whole different places, unlike the ToP.

I could however say that it was unnecessary that Akira had to give an specific time for the destruction of the planet.

Still, the one to set the time was Freezer, what makes him the expert?

Yeah, he has destroyed planets before, but not hold back like in this occasion, so if the planet destruction took 8 minutes one could say Freezer was a bit off, and that would be understandable.

ToP has "superior" beings watching the "clock" so there's no excuse.

Apples and oranges.

Long post already, Part. 2 coming soon.

He looks younger, which is why the muscles aren't what they used to, that's connected as one, but whatever, you missed one...

...his boots transform!

(Well, just the 1st time, another inconsistency)

Yeah, I made a post about why SSG design is better than SSB on Dokkan wiki, if I find it I'll copy/paste it to you, if interested.

I'm not a fan of the look, but it's the decent one of the bunch, shame is the 2nd recolor, one was more than enough, after that it became a joke.

It looks similar because it’s symbolic and serves as compare/contrast to the Original SSJ and it’s original problems as a form.

SSJ has more Ki stamina problems than it has physical stamina issues, SSJB has more stamina issues than it does ki stamina issues.

SSJB can do what Goku was training SSJ to do and more, as long as he isn’t fighting or doing strenuous work I don’t doubt he could stay in SSJB for a long time.

It’s problem is what I mentioned, it far too tuned to survival and lasting long, not overall power and firing off on all cylinders when the form needs to fight or do strenuous work, as well as not being tuned or acclimated for that since it’s too focused on keeping it’s Ki in control, it’s far too restrained and reserved and is causing strain on the user’s physical stamina to keep it that way.


This is even reflected in the fight against SSJB Goku vs Freeza in their fight. Goku entire point to the fight with Freeza was to show how SSJB isn’t meant to dominate and crush Freeza like the Original SSJ did to him on Namek, but the opposite, survive and NOT get dominated by the more powerful foe in this case Freeza who holds the golden form.

It looks similar to SSJ as a symbol that it suffers the same problems of SSJB and that it isn’t too different.

Clearly, lol.

Just a color-swap, easy merchandise

Answered this above, you missed the point of why it’s designed that way and what Toriyama is going for.

Not really, but you made a valid point on SSG, I always say that's the only one decent design because it was some changes besides color, but I guess I skipped because the post was taking long and it forgot about it while responding.

Well hopefully the point above suits your fancy more.

Everything is wrong with it, specially the part they provide godly ki out of their *****.

And you actually saw it as "vastly liked"?

We've hanged on different crowds I guess.

What part in the story literally ever hinted any of them randomly gained god ki? Because if not you clearly just had that idea in your head(canon) into it... the ritual served to have Goku manifest his own God Ki with the use of 6 pure hearted saiyan, don’t know what you were watching, but it clearly wasn’t the transformation scene lol.

Not really i don’t I see a vast majority saying they hated it. Look at any YouTube comment section, FaceBook, or Twitter. The only ones I see that hated either didn’t get it (you for instance, no offense), are upset at the animation, or mad because it wasn’t a testosterone heavy, shouting transformation. Show me of even a video or rant on it? (Not you preferably, lol)

All I see is that you don't see the drastic changes, SS2 is not just spikier, the hair is drawn differently as a whole, specially Cell arc Gohan.

SS3 is a very drastic change from SS2.

Yeah it’s different for Gohan because his Regular SSJ hair isn’t as raised up and spiky as the others, it’s barely different from his regular non SSJ hair, allowing for his SSJ2 hair to raise up and look more spiky, Goku and especially Vegeta’s hairs as SSJ are already fairly raised up and spiky, which is why their SSJ1 and SSJ2 forms barely look different.

So again, it’s just more spiky.

SSJ3 is more different in that it’s SSJ2, but longer and has no eyebrows... that’s literally it. Saying it’s super drastic changes doesn’t make it true lol.

The post was long, I was just gonna get to that if someone seemed interested in knowing about it, it's already above, enjoy.

Actually, did I even really needed to say why it doesn't make sense?

Isn't obvious?

Quote the show where it ever says any of them had gained god ki and put it into Goku. I’ll wait...

That was about me saying SSB is the worst of all.

How about anything that doesn't scream lazy?

How about anything besides a color-swap?

Good for you.

How about you understand why it’s designed that way?

How about you answer my question?

Answer directly and stop dodging the question by asking another question: what room does “SSJG that turns SSJ” leave any room for any extra unnecessary garbage like what I listed?

Again?

It's in the episode, there's no explanation to my post necessary.

Vegeta just starts getting emotional and he pull out of his *** the form, similar to SS, but at least Goku had a zenkai moments before and saw his best friend die in front of him.

This one has Vegeta giving himself an emotional injection to push the form, empty, underwhelming, ridiculous.

I won't be surprised if this one doesn't came from Akira either, just like Trunks' SS BS.

So because Vegeta actually cares and has motivation for his family and fellow saiyans in the face of danger, and an enemy that impedes that goal is in front of him and is practically impossible to beat, it’s bad?

What type of dumb, backward logic is that? At most you can say it was a bit forced on the emotional end and unsubtle, but conceptually the transformation does nothing too objectively wrong. You’re overblowing the flaws.

P.S. gonna need a source or quote on that Zenkai otherwise it’s headcanon

I don't need to, if I posted that is because it was stated, but I'll admit I might've used the wrong source.

Because Hermes translation seems to show it was in fact by Akira, so unless I find some info, that's it.

And guess what? I don’t care. And yes you do need to otherwise it’s BS so I’ll ask again.

Source?

You can, but in that case it would be false.

SS being not colored doesn't mean anything, it was still SS, Akira just took the chance to make his life easier with the specific design, the arc was to reach to that conclusion anyway.

Do you not understand Black and White ratio coloring? Have you ever read a manga before literally at all?

If the SSJ (golden blonde in this case) wasn’t colored white in the manga and was colored black would you see the SSJ as having blonde-gold hair? No prior knowledge? I highly doubt you would.

In this case if Toriyama shaded it blacker or darker, and without telling them what the color is to the animators, it can be seen and interpreted as a different color entirely so yes it does matter.

So yes I could say the same. Period. If not more so given the evidence.

It's easy to see it that way if you're trying to defend it ALL of it, for example, bellow you defend the time given for the ToP, even though it was clearly an unnecessary mistake.

I don’t defend all of it, Super is a flawed show like any other. Doesn’t change the fact that there is very clear biases and misinterpretation of the show as I have and am continuing to show below.

False, there's no theory there, just an unreliable source.

Same difference m8, both are entirely subjective and have no ground to stand on. You need a source of evidence, else it’s just non-substantial headcanon.

Not really, the result could've been the same without the "new" design.

Yeah and it likely would have sucked and been far more boring if it was just a technique alone. And it wouldn’t be enough to beat Jiren without the power to back it up, UI as to what it does for the user as far as reactions go isn’t some unstoppable force, it needs the appropriate power and it’s un-Dragonball in general. So yes it does need the ””””nnnneeeeewwwww””””” or it’d be far less cool, it wouldn’t beat Jiren, and it’s Un-Dragonball.

And I would've agreed on that, even though I'm fine with at least 1 power up design beyond that as SS2, but SS3 was just too much IMHO.

You are either ignoring or completely missed the point, if it’s the latter I’m not going to repeat myself so read it again.

There's no consistency with the time given, so it's clearly a wrong move.

Point one out an inconsistency then, one that has nothing to do with characters talking/moving, or the 18+ minute runtime of the show as that is something the visual medium cannot change, and the fact that these characters are easily faster than light gives them time.

I want no dodging this question, I want you to point out an inconsistency, I’ll wait.

The inconveniency is still there, you can say "no" but it will remain there either way.

And the "5 minutes" in Nameku-sei is not inconsistent at all in the manga, there was stuff happening in whole different places, unlike the ToP.

I could however say that it was unnecessary that Akira had to give an specific time for the destruction of the planet.

Still, the one to set the time was Freezer, what makes him the expert?

Yeah, he has destroyed planets before, but not hold back like in this occasion, so if the planet destruction took 8 minutes one could say Freezer was a bit off, and that would be understandable.

ToP has "superior" beings watching the "clock" so there's no excuse.

Apples and oranges.

This is so obviously bias and in DBZ’s favor

And I can literally turn around and say the same thing about the DBS Manga of the TOP dude.

Passage of time in comics and manga are left far more to the imagination because they are still images they aren’t animated like in a show. There’s literally no passage of time going on and is left to as fast as the reader can turn the page. You’re the one comparing apples and oranges in 2 completely different mediums bro, lol.

And guess what bro. I can literally turn around and do the exact same thing with The Grand Priest. They both aren’t all knowing and have a margin of error. None of the gods are omniscient and completely all-knowing same as Freeza. A running theme of Dragonball is showing that gods are not all powerful and never will be.
What makes him an expert on time the same as Freeza being an expert the estimation of blowing up planets and their detonation time. We have to take their word for it as they are experts, but they both aren’t omniscient as far as we know and have a margin of error.

Double standards are very clear.

Freeza himself said his error on holding back the blast stopped the planet from blowing up and then gave the 5 minutes he estimated. That’s it. Assuming any further is unsubstantiated out side of your belief of reliability on Freeza’s competence same as the Grand Priest, and has no evidence unless backed up.


Half the points you either didn’t properly address or just flew right over your head m8.

[PsionicWarrior]

Execution is irrelevant here.

What do you mean execution is irrelevant, execution is what makes or break a scene (or an episode/chapter) lol

[Lord Beerus]

I think Dragon Ball Super is certainly due for some good criticism. I've had several issues with the show, such as many of the episode feeling as though they are written in a vacuum (as much as love the Universal Survival arc, that arc is the biggest offender of this in Super), it's over reliance of "Rule Of Cool" for certain scene transitions, the general poor character writing some of the new and old cast have gotten, the overall subpar composition of the Battle Of Gods and Resurrection F retellings, and of course, the dull direction -- sometimes accompanied by lackluster animation -- which can dull the visceral and/or emotional impact certain episodes want to specifically punctuate.

Nonetheless, I think most of Super -- lets say about 75% of it -- ranges from decent to excellent. It has enough well written characters, nicely directed episodes, and some sensationally animated episodes to carry to the show to being something worth watching from start to finish at least once.

[Doctor.]

Execution is irrelevant here.

I'm sorry, what?

[PFM18]

Execution is irrelevant here.

What do you mean execution is irrelevant, execution is what makes or break a scene (or an episode/chapter) lol

I am not saying that execution doesn't matter just that it is irrelevant to this discussion. Whether or not a criticism contradicts itself and/or doesn't apply the same logic to DBS as they do to DB or DBZ is what this discussion is about.

Criticizing the execution of the show is perfectly fair and it makes sense. It isn't hypocritical or contradictory in any way to have concerns for the execution. But fair criticism is not what this thread is about.

Do you have any grasp over the term "execution"?

Ah It appears you've taken a page out of Marlowe's ol' "insult the opposition" routine.

Execution is irrelevant here.

If execution is irrelevant, then you are not addressing criticism of Dragon Ball Super. You are addressing people who have opinions that oppose yours and are ignoring all actual criticism by saying, "that's irrelevant." If you want to address criticism, then find a critical post and reply. Don't pointlessly attack strawmen that you have created and dismiss actual comments about the quality of DBS. I have no business providing arguments in a thread that is not devoted to debating anything.

No, that isn't at all what is happening. I am not "ignoring all actual criticism" in any capacity whatsoever. The scope of this thread is to address unfair criticism that is either contradictory and obviously biased and the criticism that is a result of not understanding the story.

I am not addressing criticism that is fair and any particular person's opinion. That is perfectly fine and I am not going to sit here and complain about people and their viewpoints on things like execution. I am going to complain about these common criticisms that are downright ridiculous that I hear all the time. These are not "strawman" that I created, these are extremely common things that are said all the time.

Again, as I explained to Doctor who also had misinterpreted my post, I am not here saying "DBS is good and here is why" or "I will address all criticism right here" because there's plenty of legitimate problems and concerns that people have that are fair but that is not what this thread is about. The execution of the series as a whole is beyond the scope of this thread.

[Marlowe89]

These are not "strawman" that I created, these are extremely common things that are said all the time.

The problem (as Doctor. explained) is that you're missing the point behind most of the critiques you're trying to dismiss as hypocritical, which absolutely makes them seem like imaginary strawmen.

For example, your point about tournament arcs conveniently leaves out that this issue is framed purely within the context of Super, which consists of two tournaments and exactly ONE non-tournament arc when it comes to new content that wasn't already explored in a film. Nothing unfair about that. You then touch on the first part of Dragon Ball in an attempt to demonstrate that there's a precedent, but that portion of the series consisted of more than one new non-tournament story with more than one villain. It's just a false equivalency. Even if it wasn't, it doesn't change that central recurring concern.

I think you need to take a step back and reflect on the actual reasoning behind why a lot of these issues are raised rather than decide to come at them with a surface-level understanding. You also should probably ease up on pointing at the original series constantly as if that somehow exposes a double standard when it usually doesn't; at least two of your counterpoints only work when observing the DB/DBZ anime (rather than the original manga) anyway, which ties into most of our concerns with Toei's execution of Toriyama's work at its core.

[PFM18]

The problem (as Doctor. explained) is that you're missing the point behind most of the critiques you're trying to dismiss as hypocritical, which absolutely makes them seem like imaginary strawmen.

According to Doctor. people don't actually say these hypocritical things in the first place. I wish he was right but he is mistaken. He described them as strawmen as though these aren't actually originally the arguments being laid out and I am changing them in a "strawman" fashion.

For example, your point about tournament arcs conveniently leaves out that this issue is framed purely within the context of Super, which consists of two tournaments and exactly ONE non-tournament arc when it comes to new content that wasn't already explored in a film. Nothing unfair about that

I mean this "new content" whether it be rehashing other new content or not is still content from Dragon Ball Super and should be treated as such. You can't conveniently cut out the first two tournaments as though they don't exist.

DB has 6 arcs with 3 of them being tournament arcs
DBS has 5 arcs with 2 of them being tournament arcs

To sit here and complain that there are too many tournament arcs in DBS but not in DB is ridiculous and absolutely unfair. If you think there are too many tournament arcs that should be framed as a problem with the franchise as a whole not just Dragon Ball Super.

You also should probably ease up on pointing at the original series constantly as if that somehow exposes a double standard when it usually doesn't

The double standard is very clearly there as I have already discussed in detail. Whether or not you decided to see this double standard or ignore it is up to you.

at least two of your counterpoints only work when observing the DB/DBZ anime

Which two are you talking about?

Either way comparing the DBS anime to the original manga is an apples to oranges comparison. Comparing them to the previous anime is the only way that makes sense.

[Doctor.]

According to Doctor. people don't actually say these hypocritical things in the first place. I wish he was right but he is mistaken. He described them as strawmen as though these aren't actually originally the arguments being laid out and I am changing them in a "strawman" fashion.

I said nothing of the sort. I said everyone is biased in some way or fashion and you'd have more of productive discussion trying to figure out why those biases you think people have regarding the original series exist in the first place, rather than try to point at them as if they're indicative of hypocrisy; and I only argued this after I said I was "playing along," as in, after I took your examples of hypocritical criticisms as legitimate (which I don't, for reasons already explained in my original post). I don't get why this is hard for you to understand.

And these are strawmen because you're not arguing against anyone. I present to you a deeper look at these criticisms you say people have, so that you can understand what they mean when they say certain things about the series, and you dismiss them because that's not what you're debating against, apparently. You seem content in arguing against surface level criticisms presented by none other than yourself - that's textbook definition of a strawman.

[PFM18]

According to Doctor. people don't actually say these hypocritical things in the first place. I wish he was right but he is mistaken. He described them as strawmen as though these aren't actually originally the arguments being laid out and I am changing them in a "strawman" fashion.

I said nothing of the sort. I

But you're not actually addressing anything, though. You're just presenting the criticism yourself, you're not actually saying who is making these arguments. You're just saying "This is what DBS detractors say sucks about the show, and here is my rebuttal." Where are these complaints? I don't see them anywhere. You can't present strawmen and argue against them

You did actually. You say you don't know where these complaints are and you don't see them.

[Doctor.]

You did actually.

I said you're not presenting the people making these superficial complaints or proved that they're a vocal part of the fanbase, not that they don't exist. You're the one presenting these arguments.

[Marlowe89]

You can't conveniently cut out the first two *arcs as though they don't exist.

But nobody's pretending that they don't exist. People just want new content, not a worse version of content that they've already seen before in the same animated format. This is not unreasonable or unfair at all. Of course there's going to be an impression of too many tournaments from that approach, especially when looking at the Tournament of Power, which took up an enormous portion of the series. It's completely justifiable as a general critique.

The Dragon Ball anime contained plenty of new content unrelated to tournaments, so it's not really the same issue. If you have to count the movie retellings to prove that it is, you should probably re-evaluate the argument that you're trying to attack. It's clear that you don't understand it.

Which two are you talking about?

The egregiously slow-paced Freeza arc with its poor measure of time was more of an issue with the anime than the original manga. Bingo with referring to DB as being half-tournament centric when the manga makes no distinction between DB and DBZ.

Either way comparing the DBS anime to the original manga is an apples to oranges comparison. Comparing them to the previous anime is the only way that makes sense.

Hardly. Kai obviously shows that the manga's pacing and general story structure can work within an anime format, and Super's own take on those aspects is largely more congruent with that iteration than with Z.

Again, just because a previous anime did something similar doesn't mean it's excusable in Super. You're assuming that the people raising these criticisms don't find those issues equally problematic, which would render your whole argument about hypocrisy null and void.

[PFM18]

You did actually.

I said you're not presenting the people making these superficial complaints or proved that they're a vocal part of the fanbase, not that they don't exist. You're the one presenting these arguments.

So it isn't a matter of these people with this critique don't exist but rather you think they aren't a vocal part of the fanbase?

If so, I have to disagree

[Melkaniator]

It looks similar because

Because Akira is lazy, that was pretty clear when he used a color-swap for SSGSS, and then confirm it even further with his "design" of UI look, he just took SSG Goku design and changed the eyes, and the color of the hair.

SSJB can do what Goku was training SSJ to do and more, as long as he

Guess what, I couldn't possibly care any less.

My issue is with the lazy design, as in look, not what the form provides, your excuse of symbolism is irrelevant to me, it does not change that it's a color-swap.

But, I'll give credit where credit is due, you have a talent to defend extremely lazy designs.

What part in the story literally ever hinted any of them randomly gained god ki?

What part of my post hinted I said "them" gained god ki?

I said they provide it, IOW, they enabled Goku to get god ki?

the ritual served to have Goku manifest his own God Ki with the use of 6 pure hearted saiyan, don’t know what you were watching, but it clearly wasn’t the transformation scene lol.

Don't know what you were watching, but it clearly doesn't make sense.

"Goku manifest his own good kid" equals "Goku got ki out of his ***"

Yeah it’s different for Gohan because his Regular SSJ hair isn’t as raised up and spiky as the others

Which means the transformation is indeed different, can't say the same with blue that is the same design on a black & white paper.

So again, it’s just more spiky.

"More spiky" delivers completely new hair for
Cell arc Gohan, and 3 signature bangs for Goku.

Above a simple color-swap.

SSJ3 is more different in that it’s SSJ2, but longer and has no eyebrows... that’s literally it. Saying it’s super drastic changes doesn’t make it true lol.

Saying?

No, it doesn't, but proving it, is, SS3 is clearly a drastic design, in additions to not having eyebrows, his hair completely changes, is not just "longer" he also gains pupils.

Your brief description of SS3 shows you're trying too hard to make it look less than it is.

How about you answer my question?

Answer directly and stop dodging the question by asking another question: what room does “SSJG that turns SSJ” leave any room for any extra unnecessary garbage like what I listed?

#1) It's not my job to find a more creative design.

#2) As I already said, there's no reason for further forms.

#3) Different hair look, different eye look.

#4) "Unnecessary garbage" is what Akira delivered

So because Vegeta actually cares and has motivation for his family and fellow saiyans in the face of danger, and an enemy that impedes that goal is in front of him and is practically impossible to beat, it’s bad?

His family my ***, the scene showed only "Cabba" in his mind, don't add stuff to try to make it sound better.

"I have to keep my promise to him"

"That's why I'll surpassed my limits my own way"

And then he pushed as hard as he could, and he farted SSBE.

You’re overblowing the flaws.

You're minimizing them, DBS has many and you're on a great jorney of damage control.

P.S. gonna need a source or quote on that Zenkai otherwise it’s headcanon

Goku got healed after his body was totaled by Vegeta when Ginyu was in it.

Goku was pushing that new power to his limit, seeing it producing something great when mixed with great anger as Piccolo got injured, his best friend died in front of him, and his son about to face the same fate, no surprise about SS there.

you do need to otherwise it’s BS so I’ll ask again.

No, I don't, I already explained why, do you have reading problems?

Anyway, I don't mind you calling BS on anything, coming from you makes it totally irrelevant to me.

Yeah and it likely would have sucked and been far more boring if it was just a technique alone.

Oh, but a color-swap is so fun, what else you need for entertainment?

Jingling keys?

And it wouldn’t be enough to beat Jiren without the power to back it up

Power up doesn't need a new design to show it.

You are either ignoring or completely missed the point, if it’s the latter I’m not going to repeat myself so read it again.

Back to you on both, the SSB, & the unreliable source matter.

Point one out an inconsistency then, one that has nothing to do with characters talking/moving, or the 18+ minute runtime of the show as that is something the visual medium cannot change, and the fact that these characters are easily faster than light gives them time.

You're going really far on defending inconsistency and bad writing (specially, when you ask for so many things to not be used against) there's nothing stopping them on either providing the exact time claimed, nor from not adding an unnecessary time-limit.

This is so obviously bias and in DBZ’s favor

And I can literally turn around and say the same thing about the DBS Manga of the TOP dude.

You could, but you would be wrong anyway.

DBS anime is not an adaptation of manga like DBZ was, meaning no DBS manga event excuse/fixes any of the many mistakes on the anime version, so again, it's apples and oranges, and thus no biased at all.

And guess what bro. I can literally turn around and do the exact same thing with The Grand Priest. They both aren’t all knowing and have a margin of error.

Yes, you can, "bro" and that would only give me the perfect excuse to once again, show why you're so wrong.

They have a clock-like device, there's no error, your persistence on trying defend this issue makes your crumbling position very clear.

[DiegoBrando]

I'm pretty sure one of the mian criticisms is the godawful writing and lame rehashes of Z plots. Vegeta goes back to pre-Buu saga and is really mad Goku is stronger, Future Trunks comes back and warns of a new villain, Piccolo plays Dad for Gohan (Gohan is like 30+!) and gets his arms blown off, Yamcha gets treated as a joke by everyone (nobody ever behaved like he was weak and useless, but now they do because a lot of fandom sees him as a joke), Roshi becomes relevant somehow. It's nothing but bad fanservice (fanservice to the worst kind of DB fans) and lame exposition.

Oh and the characters designs are either godawful, or lazy recolors of past designs, with a few exceptions. The animations and fights also don't have that grit and heavy atmosphere.

[Master Xar]

It looks similar because

Because Akira is lazy, that was pretty clear when he used a color-swap for SSGSS, and then confirm it even further with his "design" of UI look, he just took SSG Goku design and changed the eyes, and the color of the hair.

SSJB can do what Goku was training SSJ to do and more, as long as he

Guess what, I couldn't possibly care any less.

My issue is with the lazy design, as in look, not what the form provides, your excuse of symbolism is irrelevant to me, it does not change that it's a color-swap.

But, I'll give credit where credit is due, you have a talent to defend extremely lazy designs.

What part in the story literally ever hinted any of them randomly gained god ki?

What part of my post hinted I said "them" gained god ki?

I said they provide it, IOW, they enabled Goku to get god ki?

the ritual served to have Goku manifest his own God Ki with the use of 6 pure hearted saiyan, don’t know what you were watching, but it clearly wasn’t the transformation scene lol.

Don't know what you were watching, but it clearly doesn't make sense.

"Goku manifest his own good kid" equals "Goku got ki out of his ***"

Yeah it’s different for Gohan because his Regular SSJ hair isn’t as raised up and spiky as the others

Which means the transformation is indeed different, can't say the same with blue that is the same design on a black & white paper.

So again, it’s just more spiky.

"More spiky" delivers completely new hair for
Cell arc Gohan, and 3 signature bangs for Goku.

Above a simple color-swap.

SSJ3 is more different in that it’s SSJ2, but longer and has no eyebrows... that’s literally it. Saying it’s super drastic changes doesn’t make it true lol.

Saying?

No, it doesn't, but proving it, is, SS3 is clearly a drastic design, in additions to not having eyebrows, his hair completely changes, is not just "longer" he also gains pupils.

Your brief description of SS3 shows you're trying too hard to make it look less than it is.

How about you answer my question?

Answer directly and stop dodging the question by asking another question: what room does “SSJG that turns SSJ” leave any room for any extra unnecessary garbage like what I listed?

#1.) It’s not my job to find a more creative design.

#2) As I already said, there's no reason for further forms.

#3) Different hair look, different eye look.

#4) "Unnecessary garbage" is what Akira delivered

So because Vegeta actually cares and has motivation for his family and fellow saiyans in the face of danger, and an enemy that impedes that goal is in front of him and is practically impossible to beat, it’s bad?

His family my ***, the scene showed only "Cabba" in his mind, don't add stuff to try to make it sound better.

"I have to keep my promise to him"

"That's why I'll surpassed my limits my own way"

And then he pushed as hard as he could, and he farted SSBE.

You’re overblowing the flaws.

You're minimizing them, DBS has many and you're on a great jorney of damage control.

P.S. gonna need a source or quote on that Zenkai otherwise it’s headcanon

Goku got healed after his body was totaled by Vegeta when Ginyu was in it.

Goku was pushing that new power to his limit, seeing it producing something great when mixed with great anger as Piccolo got injured, his best friend died in front of him, and his son about to face the same fate, no surprise about SS there.

you do need to otherwise it’s BS so I’ll ask again.

No, I don't, I already explained why, do you have reading problems?

Anyway, I don't mind you calling BS on anything, coming from you makes it totally irrelevant to me.

Yeah and it likely would have sucked and been far more boring if it was just a technique alone.

Oh, but a color-swap is so fun, what else you need for entertainment?

Jingling keys?

And it wouldn’t be enough to beat Jiren without the power to back it up

Power up doesn't need a new design to show it.

You are either ignoring or completely missed the point, if it’s the latter I’m not going to repeat myself so read it again.

Back to you on both, the SSB, & the unreliable source matter.

Point one out an inconsistency then, one that has nothing to do with characters talking/moving, or the 18+ minute runtime of the show as that is something the visual medium cannot change, and the fact that these characters are easily faster than light gives them time.

You're going really far on defending inconsistency and bad writing (specially, when you ask for so many things to not be used against) there's nothing stopping them on either providing the exact time claimed, nor from not adding an unnecessary time-limit.

This is so obviously bias and in DBZ’s favor

And I can literally turn around and say the same thing about the DBS Manga of the TOP dude.

You could, but you would be wrong anyway.

DBS anime is not an adaptation of manga like DBZ was, meaning no DBS manga event excuse/fixes any of the many mistakes on the anime version, so again, it's apples and oranges, and thus no biased at all.

And guess what bro. I can literally turn around and do the exact same thing with The Grand Priest. They both aren’t all knowing and have a margin of error.

Yes, you can, "bro" and that would only give me the perfect excuse to once again, show why you're so wrong.

They have a clock-like device, there's no error, your persistence on trying defend this issue makes your crumbling position very clear.

Because Akira is lazy, that was pretty clear when he used a color-swap for SSGSS, and then confirm it even further with his "design" of UI look, he just took SSG Goku design and changed the eyes, and the color of the hair.

No because of what I said in the previous comment, it is just SSJ with God ki, that’s it’s description that’s what it’s intent is, it fulfills that intent, it doesn’t need extra crap on there, sorry a SSJ with God Ki doesn’t have hair going down to his ankles and muscles on top of muscles lol. and with UI it’s literally just a technique in the manifestation of a form, it’s not going to have dumb extra aesthetics that go way out of the boundaries of a design. Are you just a new fan that just goes on about “laziness” when you have no idea how design works? Get real bro.

Guess what, I couldn't possibly care any less.

My issue is with the lazy design, as in look, not what the form provides, your excuse of symbolism is irrelevant to me, it does not change that it's a color-swap.

But, I'll give credit where credit is due, you have a talent to defend extremely lazy designs.

So you don’t care how SSJ and it’s design was a symbol of rage and adrenaline in moments of desperation? How it’s design serves it’s symbol? So as long as it’s super, radically different looking it’s reason for looking that way matters nothing to you? That the substance doesn’t matter as long as it “looks uber, radical cool” Not to be a strawman, but that’s the general feel I get from your answers.

A design and it’s aesthetics all going into how much freedom and room it has for it, does a bunch of tribal tattoos edgey blood-red and black belong on a Pokémon? No. But you see it all the time on bad OC drawings

The intent, colors, and matching of the design is key. So it isn’t lazy. There is no such thing as lazy design, there is bad design and good design. There is simple design and there is complex Toriyama is a professional and hardworking character and art designer if you’ve seen his work on Dragon Quest and looked at any city and landscape structures he has made in any of his works.

Yeah because I know what I’m talking about and researched design and how you can’t just make shit up to look different and cool without serving a purpose. That neither simple (SSJ) nor complex (SSJ4) designs are inherently better than the other.

What part of my post hinted I said "them" gained god ki?

I said they provide it, IOW, they enabled Goku to get god ki?

No you pretty much said they pulled it out of their ass, and “providing” goes under them still having it to give to him anyway. Which they didn’t as the first attempt showed, they don’t suddenly just put god ki into him. Their pure heart allowed Goku to manifest his own, that’s what the story says, stop adding extra “personal takes” on it.

Don't know what you were watching, but it clearly doesn't make sense.

"Goku manifest his own good kid" equals "Goku got ki out of his ***"

That might be some sort of mental health issue if that’s how you interpret things, you should go get that checked out, lol.

But what I read was that six pure hearted saiyans are needed to have one manifest the SSJG and thus god ki.

Which means the transformation is indeed different, can't say the same with blue that is the same design on a black & white paper.

So? It’s just as much of a change as a color, you’d be surprised how much an appropriate color scheme can add to the mood and tone of the design the wrong color can absolutely ruin a design and clash hard on what draws your eye. SSJB’s blue speaks immediately on what the form is about, blue is a calm and reserved color as opposed to the more active and radical yellow. SSJ2 is just SSJ... but more SSJ-er if we’re going by that simple dismissal, even the aura is the same but just has lightning on it.

That’s not to say there is anything wrong with that, I just think you’re being pretty hypocritical and lack understanding of design as far as simple (not lazy) changes go, they follow a trend and don’t need to be radically different, they are just “SSJ but more powerful” just as their description says that’s why they are supposed to have simple spikier hair.

And as SSJB is just “SSJ with god ki” it’s freedom for that design is limited as far as what a god is in dragonball, slim gods, and calm energy is what constitutes god ki and their energy. Nothing more nothing less.

Saying?

No, it doesn't, but proving it, is, SS3 is clearly a drastic design, in additions to not having eyebrows, his hair completely changes, is not just "longer" he also gains pupils.

Your brief description of SS3 shows you're trying too hard to make it look less than it is.

Ah... my bad I forgot the pupils... going back to look at the form in total to go and look at the form in total since I used to be indifferent, if not disliking the form with some criticisms to it and...

... I still have them, Toriyama did what I liked to call “designed himself into a corner” SSJ3 clashes and has no sense of progression to the previous forms and it stands out as looking pretty bad as a sense of progression from the previous forms.

The pupils are ridiculous looking on it, it only serves as to say “more intense-er” than SSJ2, it’d work if the previous form SSJ2 had a semblance of a pupil and THEN the pupils for SSJ3 came, but there isn’t and they just come out of thin air, no sense of progression to the previous form and the pupils come out of nowhere.

but since it’s a smaller aspect it’s not to much a problem but... that fucking hair tho lol.
Yeah the hair is literally just longer and spikier now, so much so that it’s ridiculously long hair is just that, ridiculously long.
The bulk of the lost eyebrows (which the bulk comes out of literally nowhere as far as SSJ1 and SSJ2 served as designs) you can argue the brows, to compensate the form and make the face look serious. You could argue that the brows served as a callback to the great ape brow, but as SSJ entails it is completely different to the Great Ape form, makes no sense to add it on SSJ now

almost impossible to look at the form and take it seriously. It’s different and in the sense where it was looking to be more intense than SSJ2 and go beyond (no pun intended) and is desperately shouting out how it was “more intense” with unnecessary add-ons like I mentioned and forgetting that this is hair for a martial artist like Goku, not a punk rock band performer lol.

The form had literally nowhere to go as far as what it’s design entails.

You’re right on the changes, but as far as how it looks with those changes it looks so different in an attempt to look “intense” that it borders on stupid
I disliked the SSJ3 form as far as it was “SSJ but more powerful” to an nth degree where we were now starting to get into “ridiculous” territory where I wouldn’t doubt that if GT or Super didn’t introduce new concepts, the SSJ4 form would be Raditz SSJ3 with ridiculous aesthetics to try to make it look intense. All the add-on aesthetics forced on went outside of “SSJ2 but more intense”

So yeah you’re right it’s has more changes... but they’re objectively stupid changes from trying to go more intense. More changes =/= a better design if those changes don’t have a foundation to hold itself under.

#1.) It’s not my job to find a more creative design.

#2) As I already said, there's no reason for further forms.

#3) Different hair look, different eye look.

#4) "Unnecessary garbage" is what Akira delivered

1.) It’s not your job as a designer as you are not one, but it is your job as someone criticizing the show to know what it is you’re talking about and know what is objectively wrong with what you’re criticizing, and if you actually love the show, offer a solution, otherwise you just come off as a salty hater that offers nothing I cannot find anywhere else, your exact words are something I can find anywhere else under a different username. So are you a blind hater or a fan?

2.) and as I said, nothing objectively wrong with transformations, it’s your opinion and completely subjective on when they should stop or not.

3.) and that would look stupid as far as “SSJ with God Ki” it’s supposed to look like SSJ, the eyes could come or go I’d they’d decide to drop the symbolic compare/contrast with SSJ, but as far as what Toriyama is going for that’s not saying much.

4.) unnecessary garbage is what your answer was. “SSJ with god ki” I’ll let you figure out why your changes don’t work bro. Learn what design is.

His family my ***, the scene showed only "Cabba" in his mind, don't add stuff to try to make it sound better.

"I have to keep my promise to him"

"That's why I'll surpassed my limits my own way"

And then he pushed as hard as he could, and he farted SSBE.

His general motivations were Cabba, and surpassing limits in his own way as a Saiyan? Yes. His fight with Toppo was meant to serve as conflict for dropping his pride and morals he gained from meeting Bulma and gaining a family to power up and gain the true strength of the form? Yes. They both serve as separate components to what lead to the true power of the form and suited their situations well. Is there a problem?

Your point? He basically farted out Super Vegeta as well with a bit of training, here Vegeta has more experience as SSJ goes, is adapting and getting progressively breaking his limits against Jiren.

Also why are you censoring your own words?

You're minimizing them, DBS has many and you're on a great jorney of damage control.

No you just want to follow the barks of the “no nonsense critique” without actually knowing what the hell you are talking about. I actually know and researched design and writing, Dragonball’s stories and it’s design has and always will be simple and easy to catch, that’s it’s charm, it’s no HxH nor is it trying to be as far as design and writing goes, it’s a Shonen Jump manga.

Goku got healed after his body was totaled by Vegeta when Ginyu was in it.

Goku was pushing that new power to his limit, seeing it producing something great when mixed with great anger as Piccolo got injured, his best friend died in front of him, and his son about to face the same fate, no surprise about SS there.

That’s not what I was talking about, I thought you meant right before the fight as in with Freeza with Gohan and Co. got to shore after the Spirit Bomb.

No, I don't, I already explained why, do you have reading problems?

Anyway, I don't mind you calling BS on anything, coming from you makes it totally irrelevant to me.

No I don’t, but I’m pretty sure you have some form of mental deficiency or mental disorder. which one tho? Could think of a few that seem pretty obvious when reading what you have to say.

So I have to just take your word for it with no source? No. That’s not how you present an argument to back up your claims, a court would destroy you, lol. You mean someone who actually knows what they’re talking about with design is “BS.” That... doesn’t surprise me in context since it’s you

but a color-swap is so fun, what else you need for entertainment?

Jingling keys?

Since it serves its point to the plot and serves as a narrative symbol? Yes.

Nah, does playing with and eating the “pretty white pills” and sniffing glue do it for you? I imagine it does.

Power up doesn't need a new design to show it.

It is if you want to actually serve the narrative and change. Also not to be completely bland and boring. There is no “superiority” in not having design changes or making the narrative better, it just makes it more generic, uninteresting and lame. It goes back to my point with the transformations not being objectively bad. They’re in fact pretty good and service the show’s concepts, narratives, developments of characters, and worldbuilding quite well. I’m willing to bet UI wouldn’t be anywhere as popular as well as the TOP arc of it didn’t have a new design.

Your idea is pretty awful to say the least.

You're going really far on defending inconsistency and bad writing (specially, when you ask for so many things to not be used against) there's nothing stopping them on either providing the exact time claimed, nor from not adding an unnecessary time-limit.

Because it isn’t. As an example let’s look at the latter half of the Chimera Ant Arc in Hunter X Hunter, a well written show, pulled the same thing and over 10 or more episodes took place an in-universe 15 minutes it isn’t bad writing, it’s in fact pretty good as to show the momentum of chaos and disorder in an especially all out brawl/battle royale and that a lot of information can happen and process in a short time and that in in intense or heavy situations where there are multiple people are doing things and a lot is happening a minute can feel like an hour. The visual medium and the stuff I outlawed are things that are meta and outside of the show’s fault to change, or fall under dramatic timing and building tension and atmosphere from direction, they cannot change it.

You can argue the 48 minutes was unnecessary or unfitting, but you argued an inconsistency, which since I’m guessing you couldn’t find on your own because there isn’t one.

You could, but you would be wrong anyway.

DBS anime is not an adaptation of manga like DBZ was, meaning no DBS manga event excuse/fixes any of the many mistakes on the anime version, so again, it's apples and oranges, and thus no biased at all.

That actually makes it worse since they had reference material to make the run-time in the actual show 5 minutes, if in-universe time is such a “problem” for you. I know the DBS manga doesn’t speak for the anime.

But the it sure did for the DBZ anime and it was even dumber in-context for your “argument”

Yes, you can, "bro" and that would only give me the perfect excuse to once again, show why you're so wrong.

They have a clock-like device, there's no error, your persistence on trying defend this issue makes your crumbling position very clear.

Which the Grand Priest built himself built and set with his own interpretation of time, which has the margin of error, lol. Good logic. 10/10... out of 10

Did you even pay attention to the show? Nah nah. I’m betting you’re just a FaceBook or Twitter follower of the “big DBS critiques” and listen to all the feedback without ACTUALLY looking at the show. I’ve been destroying your arguments through this entire chain, but usually a sign of those who are losing an argument need to assert they’re “winning” to save some hurt pride when their little points are cast aside in the face of facts, I get you man, I was once and almost recently there, learn some humility, and then educate yourself, because others clearly weren’t doing their job...


bro.

[Bergamo]

The Grand Priest's clock being wrong is the dumbest thing I've seen posted here. The objective narrator even agrees with the clock. Also, human clocks rarely make mistakes, so you would expect an angel clock to have an immeasurably small margin of error. Even if it did somehow make a mistake, some one would have noticed that this 48 minute tournament ended up taking 11 hours.