Now that DBS is over what do you think of "two base theory"?

[BlueBasilisk]

"A Saiyan with the powers of Super Saiyan God who is a Super Saiyan."

Essentially paraphrasing what he said it appears to me what he is referring to the fact that SSB is a combination of SSJ and God Ki. This "power of a Super Saiyan God" in this context would refer to using God Ki. It would make sense that:

SSG = using God Ki
SSB = using God Ki + SSJ

SSB definitely seems to be God Ki + SS. SSG I'm not so sure unless you look at it as God Ki being the same TYPE of power as SSG and that being sufficient vs it actually being the same as SSG in terms of strength or otherwise 1:1 equivalent to that form. Come to think of it, Black had god ki by virtue of being Zamasu and he never went SS in the anime. When he powered up after fighting Goku he went straight to Rose.

[Marlowe89]

Goku powers up with a white aura while he's clashing with Frieza but doesn't get weaker like you would expect if he was using Whis' technique. And if he could get stronger by using god ki, why would he say he couldn't beat Frieza without going Super Saiyan instead of turning on the god ki and pulverizing him?

A lot of the confusion seems to revolve around whether Goku uses divine ki at all while theoretically using Saiyan Beyond God, and I don't believe that was ever the case. As far as I can recall, the film never specifically implies that Goku's ki can't be sensed while in base, and supplementary materials merely refer to the form as having the "power/strength" of Super Saiyan God rather than its energy type per se.

In any case, I think most people can agree that SBG was retconned out of continuity at some point; the argument mainly focuses on whether it was retconned out of the RoF movie or the RoF arc in Super, but that's pretty much splitting hairs at this point as far as I'm concerned. The current line of transformations is comparatively much more streamlined and linear than before according to official diagrams either way, and it's almost a certainty that the standard "two base theory" (in the sense of having access to two simultaneous bases) is totally unsupported at best and outright false at worst.

It's still worth noting that both Goku and Vegeta were shown using god ki in base during scenes in Episode 20/22, even if only for a brief moment. Perhaps Blue was technically the Super Saiyan level of that before it became another power-up in the standard hierarchy.

[PFM18]

according to official diagrams

Wait there's official diagrams?

[Marlowe89]

Wait there's official diagrams?

Yes, but like I said, unfortunately the original image link has expired since it was posted and translated here on Kanzenshuu. I'll repost it if I can find it.

The blurb was a "Super Saiyan diagram" that displayed images of Goku's five SS forms with arrows between them (Super Saiyan --> Super Saiyan 2 --> Super Saiyan 3 --> Super Saiyan God --> Super Saiyan Blue) with the accompanying text stating that each successive Super Saiyan transformation is a power-up from the previous one.

My take is that it pretty much fits what we saw in the manga and, later on, the anime; it also demonstrates that Super Saiyan God can be obtained by other means than just the ritual, which jives with the idea that Vegeta would also possibly have access to the form.

[BlueBasilisk]

Goku powers up with a white aura while he's clashing with Frieza but doesn't get weaker like you would expect if he was using Whis' technique. And if he could get stronger by using god ki, why would he say he couldn't beat Frieza without going Super Saiyan instead of turning on the god ki and pulverizing him?

A lot of the confusion seems to revolve around whether Goku uses divine ki at all while theoretically using Saiyan Beyond God, and I don't believe that was ever the case. As far as I can recall, the film never specifically implies that Goku's ki can't be sensed while in base, and supplementary materials merely refer to the form as having the "power/strength" of Super Saiyan God rather than its energy type per se.

In any case, I think most people can agree that SBG was retconned out of continuity at some point; the argument mainly focuses on whether it was retconned out of the RoF movie or the RoF arc in Super, but that's pretty much splitting hairs at this point as far as I'm concerned. The current line of transformations is comparatively much more streamlined and linear than before according to official diagrams either way, and it's almost a certainty that the standard "two base theory" (in the sense of having access to two simultaneous bases) is totally unsupported at best and outright false at worst.

It's still worth noting that both Goku and Vegeta were shown using god ki in base during scenes in Episode 20/22, even if only for a brief moment. Perhaps Blue was technically the Super Saiyan level of that before it became another power-up in the standard hierarchy.

Yeah, I don't think the series mentioned that his base ki couldn't be sensed either. I know it did when he turned Blue because they started drawing parallels to the Super Saiyan God transformation. Like you said, SBG was only the power level of SSG instead of the divine ki. I was just trying to make some kind of sense out of Goku's explanation. It's not like the series ever goes out of its way to explain what god ki actually does. Or whether using it by itself provides any kind of power boost.

You're right, they were using god ki in base, and your conclusion is more or less what I was trying to say in a rambling roundabout way. What we have now is much more understandable than what we had before. I remember really scratching my head at Goku not turning Blue in BoG after Resurrection F came out.

Also, I'm not really sure how Goku and Vegeta having a 'second base' would be any different from them just being really strong and not using their full power?

[Saturnine]

In the anime, SBG didn't have unsensable god ki, but it was stated to have all the poeer of SSj God and more. Clearly though, this state was written out of the show at some point, and instances of it popping up again (base Copy Vegeta vs Gotenks for instance) were probably results of bad communication between the writers.

And sorry, but saying that base Cabba, who had never even heard of SSj before, was leagues stronger than Ssj3 Vegetto from Z is not "making an arbitrary decision". The God power at first was described by Goku as something not achievable through mere training. Saying that base Vegeta had all the power of a SSj God in his bout with Cabba is insane, and making the "god boost" a value somewhere in between (such as say - current base = previous ssj3 or something) is a lazy cop-out. Base Goku and Vegeta were quite noticeably retconned to be only dunno, several to several-teen times stronger than they were in the Buu arc, as a regular training curve would suggest.

The "two-base theory", understood as Goku and Vegeta having access to two different power realms in base to switch between, is wrong. Regular base and SBG were not meant to be complementary, they were in fact directly conflicting in portrayal. If this theory is just an avknowledgement that sometimes base Goku and Vegeta were written as having SsjG power in base, and sometimes (later) not, then it is indeed true. The former SBG realm of power is now accessed by Goku with the SSjG transformation itself.

[PFM18]

And sorry, but saying that base Cabba, who had never even heard of SSj before, was leagues stronger than Ssj3 Vegetto from Z is not "making an arbitrary decision"

1. Yes it is. you are just kind of arbitrarily deciding that they shouldn't be that strong when their level of power wasn't portrayed elsewhere.
2. Who the hell said he was stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto in his Base?

[Saturnine]

And sorry, but saying that base Cabba, who had never even heard of SSj before, was leagues stronger than Ssj3 Vegetto from Z is not "making an arbitrary decision"

1. Yes it is. you are just kind of arbitrarily deciding that they shouldn't be that strong when their level of power wasn't portrayed elsewhere.
2. Who the hell said he was stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto in his Base?

1. Based on statements, common sense and the return of the yellow haired SSj, which based on what we had been told up until then, shouldn't even exist.

2. Godly Saiyan bases were said to be just as strong as SSj God. It's you who's making a fully arbitrary claim by saying they were nowhere near Ssj God, but still stronger than SSj3 Gotenks. You think SSj is now what SSj God was then, making the bases SSjG/50. That's a bold claim in itself.

[PFM18]

Based on statements, common sense and the return of the yellow haired SSj, which based on what we had been told up until then, shouldn't even exist.

There's no statements that indicate for some reason that Cabba can't be very strong. The SSJ forms returning is entirely irrelevant and has absolutely nothing to do with what I was saying.

Godly Saiyan bases were said to be just as strong as SSj God.

Other than the promotional material for the movie where was this ever stated?

It's you who's making a fully arbitrary claim by saying they were nowhere near Ssj God, but still stronger than SSj3 Gotenks. You think SSj is now what SSj God was then, making the bases SSjG/50. That's a bold claim in itself.

There's nothing arbitrary about it. Goku and Beerus both very clearly state that Goku's SSG=SSJ from a moment prior during BoG and the narrator and episode title corroborate this. There isn't anything particularly bold about repeating what the show is telling me.

[Saturnine]

Based on statements, common sense and the return of the yellow haired SSj, which based on what we had been told up until then, shouldn't even exist.

There's no statements that indicate for some reason that Cabba can't be very strong. The SSJ forms returning is entirely irrelevant and has absolutely nothing to do with what I was saying.

Yeah, and equalling a Vegeta base of say, 15x Buu arc Vegeta already counts as "very strong". Being beyond SSj3 tier fusion characters is just absurd.

Godly Saiyan bases were said to be just as strong as SSj God.

Other than the promotional material for the movie where was this ever stated?

Why, exactly that was stated in the show too, by Roshi himself if memory serves. That Goku is stronger than ever. The SSj God episode was very recent at that point, so that statement clearly takes it into account. Below you're writing something about "taking what the show tells you", wouldn't this be a good point to start? Of course I may be wrong and these lines may be from the theatrical - it's easy to confuse these two after all. Still, even if it's just a statement from the movie, I believe it can be transposed to the anime all the same, since the writers were clearly aiming for a similar power scaling portrayal in that arc in the anime.

There's nothing arbitrary about it. Goku and Beerus both very clearly state that Goku's SSG=SSJ from a moment prior during BoG and the narrator and episode title corroborate this. There isn't anything particularly bold about repeating what the show is telling me.

Doesn't mean it stayed that way, doesn't mean SSj multiplies the godly gains by 50 or powering down from SSj divides them by 50. For all we know, at that point the godly boost may have been an additive, incremental bonus of say, 10000, while SSj only multiplies the previous 1 to 50, leading to 10,001 in base vs 10,050 in SSj. You don't know it doesn't work that way. I feel you're just taking a mental shortcut and making a sweeping generalization in a situation that's not very clear due to it being volatile and transitional.

While the new bases being SSjG/50 does seem elegant and workable at first glance, it inevitably leads to absurd multipliers for when Goku actually uses SSJ God again. It takes Seth the Programmer level of conceitedness to suggest that SSj God first gets absorbed, and then provides an exponential multiplier on top of that yet again. Because if the power (or 1/50th of it) was internalized the first time with a permanent boost, why shouldn't it happen again and again ad infinitum when SSj God the form is used? It's a trap you don't want to fall into.

[Mister_Popo]

But still ... Is that the new baseform, from ROF onwards, were we build everything on from there?
160 000 whilst Saiyan Beyond God / Super Saiyan God isn't even a factor?

Yes exactly.That is the new baseform it is just simply very strong. Saiyan Beyond God is not a thing. Nothing further than Goku's power changed, it is strictly a matter of through experiencing that power he had "made it his own" is the phrasing Beerus uses multiple times. Super Saiyan God can still be used simply by tapping into God Ki where SSB is a result of the combination of SSJ and God Ki.

There is no reference whatsoever Goku nor Vegeta have such strong baseforms during the rest of the series, unless you retcon the events of BOG-ROF completely.

Well considering that prior to the ritual it appears Goku was weaker than Namek Freeza in his Base, the following events could only really be rationalized by this super strong Base form:

1. Base Goku fights evenly with a Final Form Freeza who's 1st form dominated everybody else.
2. Copy Vegeta who is identical to Base Vegeta dominates SSJ3 Gotenks in his base form.
3. Goku fights Beerus(Monaka Suit) in his base form and is strong enough for Beerus to consider it entertaining. So, at the very bare minimum, his base is much stronger than his pre-ritual SSJ3 self as seen by what happened on King Kai's planet.
4. Base Goku fights evenly/on par with Fat Buu who had trained and become significantly stronger.

It simply makes a lot of opponents extremely strong, that aren't meant to be nearly that strong.

How do you arbitrarily decide that the opponents weren't meant to be nearly that strong?

Base TOP-level Goku can be as strong as Fat Buu in base. But that's not the same as like he is stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto-level.
If he does have a baseform that would exceed SSG, that makes his fight against Frost, when he transforms to SSJ1, beyond the level of his fight against Beerus.
If you would add a Blue or Red -multiplier to such a massively strong baseform, you'd get a monster that makes the angels tremble in fear.
I prefer to accept a temporarily SBG, only for it to retconned later on or to be replaced by SSG whilst keeping a relatively 'normal base' (Fat Buu / SSJ3 Gotenks-level).

I agree with you on this: those original forms weren't meant to return from ROF onwards. The new baseform and Blue would have been just fine.
For commercial reasons they brought the other forms back in Super. So we have to headcanon or retcon things to make it fit.
Making his existing baseform stronger than SSG, when SSG itself has just returned, is not my preferable way to do it in order to keep things within reason.

[Lord Beerus]

I just think Goku and Vegeta base forms became monstrously strong after training with Whis for several months and then they learned God ki on top of that, which raised their base (and overall) battle power even higher.

I also believe that when Goku "made the power his own" in the events of Battle Of Gods, after fighting Beerus, he just lost that power, or the very least, became greatly diminished and regained that power from training with Whis.

[ekrolo2]

I just think Goku and Vegeta base forms became monstrously strong after training with Whis for several months and then they learned God ki on top of that, which raised their base (and overall) battle power even higher.

I also believe that when Goku "made the power his own" in the events of Battle Of Gods, after fighting Beerus, he just lost that power, or the very least, became greatly diminished and regained that power from training with Whis.

I used to think this too but then the U6 Saiyan's showed up and there's no way I can fool myself into thinking Cabba > Z SS Vegetto makes any shred of common sense given the context for him. Never mind Caulifla and Kale.

[Lord Beerus]

I just think Goku and Vegeta base forms became monstrously strong after training with Whis for several months and then they learned God ki on top of that, which raised their base (and overall) battle power even higher.

I also believe that when Goku "made the power his own" in the events of Battle Of Gods, after fighting Beerus, he just lost that power, or the very least, became greatly diminished and regained that power from training with Whis.

I used to think this too but then the U6 Saiyan's showed up and there's no way I can fool myself into thinking Cabba > Z SS Vegetto makes any shred of common sense given the context for him. Never mind Caulifla and Kale.

I never got the impression that Cabba > SSJ Vegetto. I mean, Cabba at his strongest couldn't move Final Form Freeza.

I mean, for the sake of context, once they introduced SSJG, and then compound on top of SSJB, the ceiling of power had be raised astronomically. And by default, every character that was introduced that was able to challenge the new realm of power that Goku and Vegeta attained were that strong from the get-go, until proven otherwise

[ekrolo2]

I never got the impression that Cabba > SSJ Vegetto. I mean, Cabba at his strongest couldn't move Final Form Freeza.

I mean, for the sake of context, once they introduced SSJG, and then compound on top of SSJB, the ceiling of power had be raised astronomically. And by default, every character that was introduced that was able to challenge the new realm of power that Goku and Vegeta attained were that strong from the get-go, until proven otherwise

I don't mind them introducing more powerful people, I just dislike the contexts behind the new additions. Cabba is a rookie Saiyan who can mercilessly beat down everyone from Z for example. Because giving him SS forms or explaining that U6 Saiyan's are Ultimate Gohan style power houses without transforming makes too much sense to include.

[Lord Beerus]

I never got the impression that Cabba > SSJ Vegetto. I mean, Cabba at his strongest couldn't move Final Form Freeza.

I mean, for the sake of context, once they introduced SSJG, and then compound on top of SSJB, the ceiling of power had be raised astronomically. And by default, every character that was introduced that was able to challenge the new realm of power that Goku and Vegeta attained were that strong from the get-go, until proven otherwise

I don't mind them introducing more powerful people, I just dislike the contexts behind the new additions. Cabba is a rookie Saiyan who can mercilessly beat down everyone from Z for example. Because giving him SS forms or explaining that U6 Saiyan's are Ultimate Gohan style power houses without transforming makes too much sense to include.

To be fair, the ceiling of power is all the universes is not equal in the slightest. The Tournament Of Power is proof of this. What may be considered uber strong in, lets say for example Universe 4, would be considered as ant in Universe 3. And whats considered extremely powerful in Universe 7 is practically the norm in Universe 11 and 6.

Equilibrium, in terms of power scaling of the universes Dragon Ball, is non-existent. And SSJ Vegetto would totally kick Cabba's ass.

[ekrolo2]

To be fair, the ceiling of power is all the universes is not equal in the slightest. The Tournament Of Power is proof of this. What may be considered uber strong in, lets say for example Universe 4, would be considered as ant in Universe 3. And whats considered extremely powerful in Universe 7 is practically the norm in Universe 11 and 6.

Equilibrium, in terms of power scaling of the universes Dragon Ball, is non-existent. And SSJ Vegetto would totally kick Cabba's ass.

I think the impression I'm supposed to get from the ceiling differences between universes is be amazed and somewhat worried about the main cast not being that great in a wider scope but I don't think the presentation of this works. Instead of being impressed by what say a Base Saiyan can do in U6 vs a regular one in U7, it makes the achievements so far much less impact. I mean, Goku and Vegeta have to go through all of the stuff from the original run and then some just so their Base forms equal Cabba? Really? That shouldn't deflate me as much as I think it does but I can't help feeling this way regardless.

[Lord Beerus]

To be fair, the ceiling of power is all the universes is not equal in the slightest. The Tournament Of Power is proof of this. What may be considered uber strong in, lets say for example Universe 4, would be considered as ant in Universe 3. And whats considered extremely powerful in Universe 7 is practically the norm in Universe 11 and 6.

Equilibrium, in terms of power scaling of the universes Dragon Ball, is non-existent. And SSJ Vegetto would totally kick Cabba's ass.

I think the impression I'm supposed to get from the ceiling differences between universes is be amazed and somewhat worried about the main cast not being that great in a wider scope but I don't think the presentation of this works. Instead of being impressed by what say a Base Saiyan can do in U6 vs a regular one in U7, it makes the achievements so far much less impact. I mean, Goku and Vegeta have to go through all of the stuff from the original run and then some just so their Base forms equal Cabba? Really? That shouldn't deflate me as much as I think it does but I can't help feeling this way regardless.

This is has been a long running issue in Dragon Ball.

Goku and Vegeta go to hell and back to become stronger after the Saiyan arc, and Freeza just waltzes in and makes their effort nearly meaningless, if not for the Saiyans getting that contrived "beaten up very badly" power up. Then when Goku and Vegeta become uber strong after Namek, along come #16, #17 and #18 to undo all that work, forcing them to reinvent the SSJ wheel. And when they do, Cell arrives and sets them back again. And when they overcome that obstacle, Majin Boo arrives. And they exhaust every gimmick technique or power-up to keep up with him. And then when they get through with him, Beerus becomes a thing. And then after training with Whis, who by all accounts is the greatest martial artist teacher Dragon Ball has ever had, for several months, Golden Freeza pops out of nowhere and rivals Goku and Vegeta's new founded power under the tutelage of Whis. Then cue the other universes...

I guess what I am trying to say is... bigger obstacles will always be a thing for Goku and Vegeta to overcome, regards of how much work they put in to reach new realms of strength or how contrived the nature of the obstacle the have to face is.

It may seem a bit depressing that for all of Goku and Vegeta's, a randomly plucked Saiyan from another universe can match them in strength in their base forms, but it is what it is.

Besides, there were no guarantees that other universe would have to abides the power hierarchy that Universe 7 had set

[ekrolo2]

This is has been long running issue in Dragon Ball.

Goku and Vegeta go to hell a back to become stronger after the Saiyan arc, and Freeza just waltzes in and makes their effort nearly meaningless, if not for the Saiyans getting that contrived "beaten up very badly" power up. Then when Goku and Vegeta become uber strong after Namek, along come #16, #17 and #18 to undo all that work, forcing them to reinvent the SSJ wheel. And when they do, Cell arrives and sets them back again. And when they overcome that obstacle, Majin Boo arrives. And they exhaust every gimmick technique or power-up to keep up with him. And then when they get through with him, Beerus becomes a thing. And then after training with Whis, who by all accounts is the greatest martial artist teacher Dragon Ball has ever had, for several months, Golden Freeza pops out of nowhere and rivals Goku and Vegeta's new founded power under the tutelage of Whis. Then cue the other universes...

I guess what I am trying to say is... bigger obstacles will always be a thing for Goku and Vegeta to overcome, regards of how much work they put in to reach new realms of strength or how contrived the nature of the obstacle the have to face is.

It may seem a bit depressing that for all of Goku and Vegeta's, a randomly plucked Saiyan from another universe can match them in strength in their base forms, but it is what it is.

Besides, there were no guarantees that other universe would have to abides the power hierarchy that Universe 7 had set

I think a fair amount of the old obstacles do work, not all but a fair amount do. Freeza being this classic galactic emperor of incredible power makes sense for the guy who's essentially Vegeta's boss, 19 and 20 have the energy absorption to boost them into higher echelons of strength, Cell is a monster composed of everyone's disparate elements, Majin Boo is the classical ancient evil unleashed on an unsuspecting galaxy. Really, it's 17, 18 and 16 who really stick out for having no good, even story convention reason to function as villains.

Beerus feels wrong to exist in a world where Majin Boo already periodically destroys worlds then goes into hibernation, Golden Freeza is a big load of bullshit, Cabba is a rookie Saiyan who can stomp basically everyone from Z in his Base form no problem, Hit apparently never trained a day in his life if his basic use of Time Skip is any indication yet he's somehow Blue tier, Future Trunks, Piccolo, Gohan, 17 can masturbate off screen for a few days or years and catch up Goku and Vegeta with not even a tenth of the effective training methods available to them,...

[PFM18]

Yeah, and equalling a Vegeta base of say, 15x Buu arc Vegeta already counts as "very strong". Being beyond SSj3 tier fusion characters is just absurd.

well the term "SSJ3 fusion characters" is extremely vague since it can refer to SSJ3 Vegetto or SSJ3 Gotenks who are easily 100x different in power. Based on Cabba matching Base Vegeta during this time he must be far superior to SSJ3 Gotenks. Of course, I am sure he would be far inferior to Z SSJ3 Vegetto.

Why, exactly that was stated in the show too, by Roshi himself if memory serves.That Goku is stronger than ever

It appears that memory doesn't serve. Roshi's only real power related comment was something about SSB Goku being strong. He didn't make any statement power related untik Goku transformed. Roshi saying that SSB Goku is stronger than ever is obvious and isn't really entirely related to this discussion. He said no such thing about Goku's base form.

I believe it can be transposed to the anime all the same, since the writers were clearly aiming for a similar power scaling portrayal in that arc in the anime.

By this logic we could say that Beerus used 70% of his power against Goku since he said it in the movie and we could say that SSB Goku/Vegeta could beat Beerus if they teamed up like Whis said in the movie. Obviously both of these statements are clearly not the case in DBS and neither of those statements were made during DBS. The movies cannot be used to extrapolate over from the anime it just doesn't work.

Doesn't mean it stayed that way, doesn't mean SSj multiplies the godly gains by 50 or powering down from SSj divides them by 50. For all we know, at that point the godly boost may have been an additive, incremental bonus of say, 10000, while SSj only multiplies the previous 1 to 50, leading to 10,001 in base vs 10,050 in SSj. You don't know it doesn't work that way. I feel you're just taking a mental shortcut and making a sweeping generalization in a situation that's not very clear due to it being volatile and transitional.

This "for all we know" and then inserting these "possible" conclusions just doesn't make sense. We must assume that the SSJ forms function the same way until proven otherwise. It hasn't been proven otherwise so the 50x multiplier needs to have stayed the same. So yes, I do know that it doesn't work that way.

While the new bases being SSjG/50 does seem elegant and workable at first glance, it inevitably leads to absurd multipliers for when Goku actually uses SSJ God again. It takes Seth the Programmer level of conceitedness to suggest that SSj God first gets absorbed, and then provides an exponential multiplier on top of that yet again. Because if the power (or 1/50th of it) was internalized the first time with a permanent boost, why shouldn't it happen again and again ad infinitum when SSj God the form is used? It's a trap you don't want to fall into.

It works extremely well because that is what is portrayed in the series. The ToP gives us a ton of evidence that the SSG multiplier post absorption is far less than before this occurred. Yes, I agree if he could "stack" the same SSG multiplier would be absurd and would lead to some very Seth the Programmer-esque conclusions. However, it appears that the writers agree with us on how absurd that would be given the evidence given in the ToP that I explain here:
[spoiler]Potara fusion, as we see with Kefla and Vegeto in Z, allows the fusion's base to be stronger than the previous highest output of the characters in question. Hence, according to the dbz anime and the Daizenshuu:

Base Vegetto>SSJ3 Goku

And obviously, the fusion can still use those transformations. But in the BoG arc we are told that this enormous boost is inferior to the boost given by Super Saiyan God. The two statements mentioned previously show this to be the case. It was strongly implied that:

SSG Goku>>SSJ3 Vegetto

Now, if the multiplier for SSG were to stay the same, then things during the ToP would definitively look like this:

SSG Goku>>SSJ2 Kefla.

Since, Goku and Caulifla were equivalent to each other in equivalent forms, this relationship between potara and SSG should still hold the same. Not only is this not the case, but BASE Kefla appears to be stronger than Super Saiyan God. Not only does Goku not dominate SSJ2 Kefla like he would had the boost stayed the same, Kefla doesn't even need to transform. This means that the multiplier at a bare minimum needs to have been reduced by 100x. Even though this is pretty crystal clear, there is still more evidence.

In BoG the boost from SSG->SSJ3 is astronomical. Absolutely massive. Goku's SSG surpasses anything he can do as a fusion at the very least. So, at the very least, since:

SSJ3 Vegetto>SSJ3 Goku>SSJ2 Goku

Where the two relationships have a 4x and 400x boost, we can see that at the absolute bare minimum, the difference between SSJ2 and SSG should be a 1,600x difference.

But in the Tournament of Power, we see that Goku goes SSJ2 and fights evenly with Caulifla. Then he goes SSG and he gains a significant advantage over Caulifla and Kale. However, if the boost stayed 1,600x stronger, then he would have instantly one shot Caulifla and put her out of commission. The boost still exists, but is undeniably diminished considering there is still a competition.

In short, we see in BoG that SSG yields an astronomical boost over SSJ3 and the boost is higher than the boost over potara but in the ToP we can clearly see that is not the case. So, for either of these things to be true, the SSG boost must have diminished.[/spoiler]

If he does have a baseform that would exceed SSG

He doesn't. When Goku goes SSB then the narrator and King Kai state that Goku has surpassed SSG. These statement would be redundant and nonsensical if he had already surpassed SSG in his base form. This implies that only THEN did he surpass SSB once he goes SSB.

We are told during BoG that SSJ=SSG and SSJ=Base/50. Therefore, RoF Base Goku=SSG/50+his gains from training with Whis. So if he managed to be 5x stronger than he was when he showed up on Whis's planet, he would still only be a tenth of what he was as a SSG during BoG.

If you would add a Blue or Red -multiplier to such a massively strong baseform, you'd get a monster that makes the angels tremble in fear.

Yes, that would result in quite the monster. The "Red" multiplier appears to have dramatically decreased based on what we see in the ToP as I explain earlier in this post.

This is has been long running issue in Dragon Ball.

Goku and Vegeta go to hell a back to become stronger after the Saiyan arc, and Freeza just waltzes in and makes their effort nearly meaningless, if not for the Saiyans getting that contrived "beaten up very badly" power up. Then when Goku and Vegeta become uber strong after Namek, along come #16, #17 and #18 to undo all that work, forcing them to reinvent the SSJ wheel. And when they do, Cell arrives and sets them back again. And when they overcome that obstacle, Majin Boo arrives. And they exhaust every gimmick technique or power-up to keep up with him. And then when they get through with him, Beerus becomes a thing. And then after training with Whis, who by all accounts is the greatest martial artist teacher Dragon Ball has ever had, for several months, Golden Freeza pops out of nowhere and rivals Goku and Vegeta's new founded power under the tutelage of Whis. Then cue the other universes...

I guess what I am trying to say is... bigger obstacles will always be a thing for Goku and Vegeta to overcome, regards of how much work they put in to reach new realms of strength or how contrived the nature of the obstacle the have to face is.

It may seem a bit depressing that for all of Goku and Vegeta's, a randomly plucked Saiyan from another universe can match them in strength in their base forms, but it is what it is.

Besides, there were no guarantees that other universe would have to abides the power hierarchy that Universe 7 had set

Exactly. Well said as usual.

There's no reason why the Universe 6 Saiyans being on par with Goku/Vegeta would be evidence that Goku and Vegeta aren't as strong as we thought. Not sure why people keep saying this to be honest.