Can someone explain to me why Roshi vs Jiren is bad?

[TysonWine]

"Roshi fought evenly with Jiren."
Which I don't get because he isn't even with Jiren. At the end of the short fight, Roshi is still as weak and Jiren is still as strong.

So can someone explain what's wrong?

If you can't hit your opponent and your opponent can't hit you, you're fighting evenly with your opponent. Roshi fought evenly with Jiren until Jiren made a serious face and did his karate chop. During that exchange, neither fought above or below each other. By definition, they fought evenly. This doesn't mean Roshi is even in strength to Jiren. It could just mean Jiren held back...a lot. Now why he would hold back to the point where Roshi could fight evenly with him is another story, and may be where a lot of fans have a problem.

Beerus is better than Roshi at UI. Beerus can tap into his instincts for a brief period of time at a godly level. Roshi can tap into his instincts for a brief period of time at a human level.

Can you explain this? Because I think they were trying to explain it in the chapter but it didn't make sense to me. Dodging with pure instinct should be U.I. A technique anyone can do with training. How exactly is Beerus' U.I at a "Godly" level? A successful dodge of an attack based on pure instinct is just that. How can you do that at a higher level than someone doing the exact same thing? Doesn't matter what name you call it by if the actions the same. The dialogue in the chapter acts like there's levels to U.I which could only be the case of you're comparing offensive U.I and defensive U.I.

You forgot to mention that said weak character used a pseudo version of a technique that circumvents conscious reaction times, so the gap in speed shouldn't even really be an issue here.

Roshi did nothing wrong.

So why did Jiren's karate chop land? And Jiren shouldn't be able to hit U.I Goku at all? When Jiren knocked out Roshi, Beerus said "that old geezer had to fall sooner or later." It was never stated that Roshi ran out of instinct.

Roshi vs Jiren is bad because it over-exaggerates the concept of "Skill > Power" to such a ludicrous degree that it created an existential effect of undermining the performance in battle of literally every other fighter that has ever come across Jiren.

And that's not even taking into consideration the unfortunate thematic implications that battle had on Goku's basic knowledge of martial arts...

This is the main reason I didn't like it. There has to be balance and consistency. If this is the route they're going to go, stick with it. Don't come of nowhere with it to make a character look cool every now and then. I'd like to think Roshi isn't the only thorough martial artist in the tournament.

[Marlowe89]

So why did Jiren's karate chop land? And Jiren shouldn't be able to hit U.I Goku at all? When Jiren knocked out Roshi, Beerus said "that old geezer had to fall sooner or later." It was never stated that Roshi ran out of instinct.

It's strongly implied on page 33. Roshi gets knicked in the face and abdomen, then Whis says it's still a far cry from the real thing while Beerus says there's no way he could master it. This is exactly like how Beerus getting hit during the Zen Exhibition was attributed to him not having mastered the technique yet.

Jiren may have been suppressed as well. It's not unreasonable; the object of the tournament is to ring-out opponents as opposed to killing them. I don't think it's necessary to specify that if Roshi already has "UI" (albeit a crappy version) but it's worth considering.

[shadowfox87]

I think some people in this thread are mistakenly believing that Roshi used UI when he did NOT. He used movements learned from martial arts through his training with Korin. Whis said that it shares similar principles but is a "far cry" from UI. Roshi isn't moving faster than Jiren to dodge those punches. The purpose of this is to anticipate and move out of the way before the punches were thrown. This is nothing new in martial arts and is called "Mushin". It's a state of mind where the body moves on its own based on the numerous battle experience its gained. This made Jiren initially surprised. Jiren is fighting a fly here and as Kahseral said, "a power level as low as dirt". If Jiren uses even an ounce of his power, he could accidentally kill Roshi and get disqualified. So yes, he is heavily suppressed. It's just like when Whis grabbed the wings of a bee in RoF. Ki control and learning to suppress is important. If Goku were to use super strength all the time, he wouldn't be able to hug Chi-Chi or eat food with a fork or knife. Alternatively Jiren could've just used a ki wave of his hand to push Roshi off the stage. Basically, Roshi lasted 2 seconds and Jiren karate chopped him.

[Nickolaidas]

Can we all agree that sometimes the manga f*&ks up?

Can we all agree that sometimes the anime f*&ks up?

Can we all agree that anime Gohan being unable to beat a Yardrat while Frieza ownz him is bad writing?

Can we all agree that anime Goku regaining his stamina while he's fighting is bad writing?

Can we all agree that the way anime Caulifla gained SSJ status was bad writing?

Can we all agree that manga Frost doing anything Frieza tells him without even remotely suspecting him (including wearing himself out while doing the heavy work) is bad writing?

Can we all agree that manga Berserk Kale one-shotting Anilaza, a guy who got his own 'Slay the Dragon' episode in the anime is bad writing?

Can we all agree that Muten Roshi evading the weakest of hits by a guy who can beat Gods is bad writing?


For the love of God, can we all agree on those things?

[sintzu]

For the love of God, can we all agree on those things?

Actually I think that...yes, yes we can.

[Avenant]

I think some people in this thread are mistakenly believing that Roshi used UI when he did NOT. He used movements learned from martial arts through his training with Korin. Whis said that it shares similar principles but is a "far cry" from UI. Roshi isn't moving faster than Jiren to dodge those punches. The purpose of this is to anticipate and move out of the way before the punches were thrown. This is nothing new in martial arts and is called "Mushin". It's a state of mind where the body moves on its own based on the numerous battle experience its gained. This made Jiren initially surprised. Jiren is fighting a fly here and as Kahseral said, "a power level as low as dirt". If Jiren uses even an ounce of his power, he could accidentally kill Roshi and get disqualified. So yes, he is heavily suppressed. It's just like when Whis grabbed the wings of a bee in BoG. Ki control and learning to suppress is important. If Goku were to use super strength all the time, he wouldn't be able to hug Chi-Chi or eat food with a fork or knife. Alternatively Jiren could've just used a ki wave of his hand to push Roshi off the stage. Basically, Roshi lasted 2 seconds and Jiren karate chopped him.

This is the best explanation I've heard yet and I agree on all points. It boggles the mind how so many people get hung up on such a non-issue. All Roshi did was surprise Jiren who's head is a little too big. That much is proven in the Anime near the end of the ToP and he has a realization about how it's more than strength helping Goku win. Folks are giving way too much credit to Roshi based on surface level paneling and are thinking too hard about something that isn't there.

Roshi anticipated, Jiren didn't, Roshi dodged, Jiren got his head out of his ass and corrected his error in judgement with a light tap on Roshi's neck.

Plain, simple, no harm, no foul.

[TheOne]

It’s terrible. it’s contradicting a lot of the stuff that’s happened before.

Where we all these abilities when Roshi was fighting King Piccolo? Or when he fought Tien against Jackie Chun? Roshi died in one of those fights using the mafuba (he would’ve gotten WRECKED if he tried to get in a physical fight with Piccolo. So mafuba was his only option). He struggled fighting Tien in the original dragon ball. Tien has a few more things he could learn from him, but he was pretty close to overpowering Roshi.

That was just in dragon ball. Raditz would have annihilated EVERYONE in the Dragon Ball series. Essentially one of the weakest fighters in Z was stronger than everyone in DB.

I feel like I shouldn’t have to say this, but level of strength of opponents have drastically increased. To the point where there’s no possible way Roshi could catch up. Yeah I get his motto is “surpassing your limits”, but you don’t jump from being at the strength of a saibamen to Frieza just by pushing harder.

I guess Roshi should’ve lead the charge against Beerus when they first fought him right? Maybe they all could’ve relaxed their minds and not sought out more power... Or how about against Cell? The earth was in the biggest trouble yet, but Roshi wasn’t there to even help fight the Cell Jr’s and give advice? Maybe Buu would’ve been finished off much sooner if only they got this level of advice back then.. Wait, didn’t Buu kill Roshi with ease? Surely all these abilities to dodge would’ve saved him from getting killed when Buu annihilated the entire planet in minutes. The only known survivors were Dende, Hercule and maybe Tien.

Dragon ball has gone out of its way to let us know that once your enemy is at a certain point in strength, you’re useless unless you’re at least close. Roshi is so far removed in the strength discussion that no amount of “mastery” of movement is going to help him in this stage against a villain. They even had to nerf other fighters in different universes to make Roshi able to participate.


The bottom line is that Roshi retired from fighting in Dragon Ball. He had nothing left to teach them. All of his students were surpassing him in strength. Toriyama and them sprinkle a little bit of “he’s been secretly training over the years” and you guys eat it up. Completely forgetting about everything that happened in Dragon Ball and how strong the opponents were in Z. You all are essentially sheep.

I love Dragon Ball and was one of the people who checked online daily to see if we’d ever get a new series. Imagine how glad I was that we were getting movies and THEN a new series. The fact that they have gone so far out the way of how Dragon Ball and Z were makes it very frustrating to watch. Ultimately I get what they’ve been trying to do, but they needed a more “in universe” approach to where everything wasn’t so weird. If they really cared about making the Z fighters relevant again, they could’ve had them train with a diety like Whis in a place where time doesn’t pass or something. Training with a diety sounds like a more effective way to show the fighters getting stronger than just giving us whacky fights
that would give a rise out of the the fans.

I would have more respect for the fan base if they just admitted “yeah it’s a little off, but I can deal with it” instead of making it seem like none of it is an issue. With all the detailed and quality anime’s out there, there’s nothing wrong with expecting one of the most popular anime’s ever to do a better job.

[shadowfox87]

This is the best explanation I've heard yet and I agree on all points. It boggles the mind how so many people get hung up on such a non-issue. All Roshi did was surprise Jiren who's head is a little too big. That much is proven in the Anime near the end of the ToP and he has a realization about how it's more than strength helping Goku win. Folks are giving way too much credit to Roshi based on surface level paneling and are thinking too hard about something that isn't there.

Roshi anticipated, Jiren didn't, Roshi dodged, Jiren got his head out of his ass and corrected his error in judgement with a light tap on Roshi's neck.

Plain, simple, no harm, no foul.

Thanks. In a way, I find that "Jiren" represents the db fandom that is saying that Roshi has nothing left to teach Goku and that he's old retired man. While the lesson being taught here is that no matter who you are, you can always learn something new, even from an old teacher. That, an old dog can teach new tricks. Jiren believes only in "strength" and "power" alone just like the fandom.

People are having a hard time grasping why Roshi didn't do this against King Piccolo or Raditz. King Piccolo was already a proficient martial artist and Roshi tried to use the Mafuba technique which his master, Mutaito used to seal Piccolo. So his primary strategy was that. Then, against Raditz, Goku and Piccolo were already the two strongest Earthlings and were ready to fight Raditz. If they had failed, then more of the Z-senshi would have interfered. Hell, the official power levels actually state that Mr. Popo had a power level of 1030 at that time, so he would've definitely helped in the fight against Raditz.

[supersaiyanZero]

Those same people should explain 17, Trunks vs fused Zamasu, infinite stamina, final-sorry just kidding- explosion, etc.

The only legitimate beef should be with Toriyama for including Roshi in the ToP in the first place. Fans want these old school characters' to "shine" when their arcs are clearly finished a long time ago and have no business being in the story right now, and when they finally get the fan service they asked for they start raging about power levels and scaling issues. Jesus christ.

[emperior]

Those same people should explain 17, Trunks vs fused Zamasu, infinite stamina, final-sorry just kidding- explosion, etc.

The only legitimate beef should be with Toriyama for including Roshi in the ToP in the first place. Fans want these old school characters' to "shine" when their arcs are clearly finished a long time ago and have no business being in the story right now, and when they finally get the fan service they asked for they start raging about power levels and scaling issues. Jesus christ.

Add Super Saiyan Vegeta vs Super Saiyan Black and Kefla vs Gohan to the list, then.
Nobody ever asked for Roshi's fanservice and no one wanted Roshi to become a different character. The way the anime staff handled Roshi is so much better that there is no contest at all. He was Roshi in the anime, and they actually progressed his character by ADDING to it instead of completely changing him to make him look badass, and to Goku's expense.
Toriyama including Roshi in the ToP doesn't justify Toyotaro fucking his character along with Goku's up. Toriyama included Roshi so he could be of help in the Battle Royale, as he probably felt his experience may have been very handy for such a tournament. And that's exactly what his role was in the anime.
He also included Tenshinan and Krillin who had a poor performance in the anime and no performance at all in the manga. Does it mean Toriyama wanted them to suddenly become what they weren't just because he included them in the tournament? Of course not.
The only blame Toriyama has in all of this is the fact that he seemingly approved the last manga chapter.

[The Monkey King]

It's actually really simple

The character who in the original manga was freaked out by the speed of Goku and Tien's fight in the 22nd BT



Can now suddenly dodge attacks from a character who is so far beyond him it's beyond comprehension.

It's very jarring.

[Doctor.]

It's actually really simple

The character who in the original manga was freaked out by the speed of Goku and Tien's fight in the 22nd BT

Can now suddenly dodge attacks from a character who is so far beyond him it's beyond comprehension.

It's very jarring.

You don't get it. It's because he's using a bootleg version of UI! In spite of no previous indication of him even knowing that self-movement is the way you should train your body for. But he's stronger now because he trained off-screen obviously... in spite of no indication of that whatsoever, he just pulls this out of his ass without explanation as to where he got it, when he got it, why he got it or how he got it.

It's incredibly baffling to me that anyone is defending this from an execution standpoint. You're allowed to like the idea, even if personally I still think it's too extreme to be credible, but at least admit it came out of nowhere without the slightest build-up and without the necessary context surrounding it in order to make such a specific circumstance believable.

On a side note, I find it funny how quick some people were to defend the fodder jobbing because they didn't get any "screentime" during the tournament preparation, thus they were never the focal point, but here they are defending Roshi's extremely sudden and contrived moment to shine despite his lack of any memorable screentime during the pre-tournament chapters, or any hint towards any exceptional power he may hold. Guess the manga can do no wrong, and this will be proven again when a UI user gets hit either by Jiren or Broly and it will be defended by the same people attempting to justify this by calling UI an infallible auto-dodge.

[Avenant]

It's actually really simple

The character who in the original manga was freaked out by the speed of Goku and Tien's fight in the 22nd BT



Can now suddenly dodge attacks from a character who is so far beyond him it's beyond comprehension.

It's very jarring.

Physically seeing someone's agility and anticipating their next move are two different things. In that moment, Roshi had assumed he wouldn't have any trouble seeing their moves. Just like Jiren assumed Roshi was nothing more than a garbage fighter.

[emperior]

It's actually really simple

The character who in the original manga was freaked out by the speed of Goku and Tien's fight in the 22nd BT



Can now suddenly dodge attacks from a character who is so far beyond him it's beyond comprehension.

It's very jarring.

I said it many times already, Roshi in the latest chapter is not Roshi. Toyotaro has no idea who Roshi is, and frankly he has shown to have forgotten who Goku is too judging by the last chapter.

We have presented FACTS to explain why this shit makes no sense whatsoever, how both Goku and Roshi aren’t just out of character - they are completely different characters, yet people still defend it coming up with the more disperate headcanons to try and defend this chapter. At this point they should just create a “Manga praise thread” where they can have fun praising the perfection of Toyotaro’s manga in their little circlejerk, while the actual fans of Dragon Ball can discuss each chapter and either praise or criticise them.
It’s quite hilarious how the manga defenders can’t comprehend that this chapter completely shits on almost the entirety of the original manga. I would expect this from anime fans who have never watched the original Dragon Ball, surely not from fans of the manga who are supposed to have read Toriyama’s work too.

[Doctor.]

It's actually really simple

The character who in the original manga was freaked out by the speed of Goku and Tien's fight in the 22nd BT



Can now suddenly dodge attacks from a character who is so far beyond him it's beyond comprehension.

It's very jarring.

I said it many times already, Roshi in the latest chapter is not Roshi. Toyotaro has no idea who Roshi is, and frankly he has shown to have forgotten who Goku is too judging by the last chapter.

We have presented FACTS to explain why this shit makes no sense whatsoever, how both Goku and Roshi aren’t just out of character - they are completely different characters, yet people still defend it coming up with the more disperate headcanons to try and defend this chapter. At this point they should just create a “Manga praise thread” where they can have fun praising the perfection of Toyotaro’s manga in their little circlejerk, while the actual fans of Dragon Ball can discuss each chapter and either praise or criticise them.
It’s quite hilarious how the manga defenders can’t comprehend that this chapter completely shits on almost the entirety of the original manga. I would expect this from anime fans who have never watched the original Dragon Ball, surely not from fans of the manga who are supposed to have read Toriyama’s work too.

It's because the manga panders. It panders just as much as the anime, but because it disguises its nonsensical fanservice with convoluted explanations you wouldn't catch Toriyama making to excuse dumb plot points, it gets a pass. This is nothing more than "hey guys, remember when Roshi was cool? Remember that? Let's throw away decades of in-universe progress to put Roshi back in the spotlight and make you nostalgic for the days where he had something to contribute" completely ignoring the fact that there's a reason why Z never pulled the same stunt.

[JazzMazz]

It's actually really simple

The character who in the original manga was freaked out by the speed of Goku and Tien's fight in the 22nd BT



Can now suddenly dodge attacks from a character who is so far beyond him it's beyond comprehension.

It's very jarring.

Physically seeing someone's agility and anticipating their next move are two different things. In that moment, Roshi had assumed he wouldn't have any trouble seeing their moves. Just like Jiren assumed Roshi was nothing more than a garbage fighter.

The problem is, Roshi in the original series was never shown to be a fighter capable of fighting without the dependence of his eyes. The ability to react to that sort of movement, was only demonstrated after Roshi had been retired, and was learnt in Kami’s training, so there is no reason he should have been able to respond to an opponents movement he can’t see.

[Bergamo]

Can we all agree that sometimes the manga f*&ks up?

Can we all agree that sometimes the anime f*&ks up?

Can we all agree that anime Gohan being unable to beat a Yardrat while Frieza ownz him is bad writing?

Can we all agree that anime Goku regaining his stamina while he's fighting is bad writing?

Can we all agree that the way anime Caulifla gained SSJ status was bad writing?

Can we all agree that manga Frost doing anything Frieza tells him without even remotely suspecting him (including wearing himself out while doing the heavy work) is bad writing?

Can we all agree that manga Berserk Kale one-shotting Anilaza, a guy who got his own 'Slay the Dragon' episode in the anime is bad writing?

Can we all agree that Muten Roshi evading the weakest of hits by a guy who can beat Gods is bad writing?


For the love of God, can we all agree on those things?

1.Frost trusted Frieza because Frieza showed his willingness to defeat even his own teammates.
2. Why does Anilaza being powerful in the anime effect the writing of the manga?
3. I admit Roshi dodging Jiren isn't particularly good writing, but it also isn't a new low in DBS, nor does it completely destroy the arc.

[Mister_Popo]

Fact is guys, power scaling isn't Super's number one priority. Not with the manga, not with the anime. It's clear as candy they just want to deliver a show, a spectacle. If you think they really gonna take the power scaling seriously in the future. Broly ... stronger than a God of Destruction .. You don't have to relativate it, but don't complain you cry a million tears if you don't, because i don't think it's going to change.

[TysonWine]

You don't get it. It's because he's using a bootleg version of UI! In spite of no previous indication of him even knowing that self-movement is the way you should train your body for. But he's stronger now because he trained off-screen obviously... in spite of no indication of that whatsoever, he just pulls this out of his ass without explanation as to where he got it, when he got it, why he got it or how he got it.

It's incredibly baffling to me that anyone is defending this from an execution standpoint. You're allowed to like the idea, even if personally I still think it's too extreme to be credible, but at least admit it came out of nowhere without the slightest build-up and without the necessary context surrounding it in order to make such a specific circumstance believable.

On a side note, I find it funny how quick some people were to defend the fodder jobbing because they didn't get any "screentime" during the tournament preparation, thus they were never the focal point, but here they are defending Roshi's extremely sudden and contrived moment to shine despite his lack of any memorable screentime during the pre-tournament chapters, or any hint towards any exceptional power he may hold. Guess the manga can do no wrong, and this will be proven again when a UI user gets hit either by Jiren or Broly and it will be defended by the same people attempting to justify this by calling UI an infallible auto-dodge.

Having been told "Roshi dodged Jiren because he had pseudo U.I which supersedes physical limitations!" I hope those people realize the moment Goku or any other U.I user gets hit at ANY point in the manga's future that that argument instantly gets trashed. I guess those people are expecting a rather uneventful finale between Goku and Jiren.

[Kenneth La Torre]

It's actually really simple

The character who in the original manga was freaked out by the speed of Goku and Tien's fight in the 22nd BT

Can now suddenly dodge attacks from a character who is so far beyond him it's beyond comprehension.

It's very jarring.

You don't get it. It's because he's using a bootleg version of UI! In spite of no previous indication of him even knowing that self-movement is the way you should train your body for. But he's stronger now because he trained off-screen obviously... in spite of no indication of that whatsoever, he just pulls this out of his ass without explanation as to where he got it, when he got it, why he got it or how he got it.

It's incredibly baffling to me that anyone is defending this from an execution standpoint. You're allowed to like the idea, even if personally I still think it's too extreme to be credible, but at least admit it came out of nowhere without the slightest build-up and without the necessary context surrounding it in order to make such a specific circumstance believable.

On a side note, I find it funny how quick some people were to defend the fodder jobbing because they didn't get any "screentime" during the tournament preparation, thus they were never the focal point, but here they are defending Roshi's extremely sudden and contrived moment to shine despite his lack of any memorable screentime during the pre-tournament chapters, or any hint towards any exceptional power he may hold. Guess the manga can do no wrong, and this will be proven again when a UI user gets hit either by Jiren or Broly and it will be defended by the same people attempting to justify this by calling UI an infallible auto-dodge.

Auto dodge doesnt mean invincible. We already know UI opponents can be hit by G.O.D level foes or beyond (limit breaker jiren). This no limits fallacy will die down once newer villians treat UI goku as if he were any regular opponent.