Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

GreatSaiyaman123 · Post by **GreatSaiyaman123** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:25 am

So... Does anyone want to see my PLs list for Z? I'm asking now because nobody cares when i send my lists.

LightBing · Post by **LightBing** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:20 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:So... Does anyone want to see my PLs list for Z? I'm asking now because nobody cares when i send my lists.

Personally when people post lists without any explanation I mostly ignore them. It's not providing interesting discussion and the follow ups it gives aren't, for the most part, productive. People either agree or disagree, the later usually starts the conversation from their point of view and not from the logic of the list(how would they know).
Making the conversation pretty mumbled and inefficient.

Just my two cents, I don't know if it applies to you personally but I felt the need to voice my opinion.

GreatSaiyaman123 · Post by **GreatSaiyaman123** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:31 pm

LightBing wrote:
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:So... Does anyone want to see my PLs list for Z? I'm asking now because nobody cares when i send my lists.
Personally when people post lists without any explanation I mostly ignore them. It's not providing interesting discussion and the follow ups it gives aren't, for the most part, productive. People either agree or disagree, the later usually starts the conversation from their point of view and not from the logic of the list(how would they know).
Making the conversation pretty mumbled and inefficient.

Just my two cents, I don't know if it applies to you personally but I felt the need to voice my opinion.

Yeah, i was thinking about making an accurate list with explanations, but i really don't have much time right now. I may this list on the weekend, though.

dragonball0900 · Post by **dragonball0900** » Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:13 pm

There's something that I have the need to point out regarding the power levels before Z. It's that Goku and Piccolo can't be that far above from 416 and 408.

During the Namek arc, King Kai said that Piccolo, Tien, Yamcha and Chiaotzu all managed to run along the snake way faster than Goku. Yeah, that includes Chiaotzu, who has a power level of 610. I think that itself would indicate that Goku and Piccolo in the beggining of Z have to obligatorily be below Chiaotzu's 610. Anywhere between 408/416 up to probably the 500 range would be possible. What do you think?

DanielSSJ · Post by **DanielSSJ** » Sun Jun 11, 2017 8:48 pm

Goku and Piccolo might have battle powers of 416 and 408 while standing around, but those numbers could easily rise to around 500 or so when they actually engage in combat. And then they jump up to around 1,000 each when they concentrate their ki for their super moves. This all would apply to the Earthlings as well. So while Chiaotzu's base level might be 610, his combat power might be 700 or something, and his Dodonpa would jump all the way into the low thousands.

It's also worth noting that Goku ran the length of Serpent Road while wearing his weighted gear. The other dead guys probably weren't wearing theirs when they went to Kaio's (save for Piccolo).

dragonball0900 · Post by **dragonball0900** » Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:09 pm

DanielSSJ wrote:Goku and Piccolo might have battle powers of 416 and 408 while standing around, but those numbers could easily rise to around 500 or so when they actually engage in combat. And then they jump up to around 1,000 each when they concentrate their ki for their super moves. This all would apply to the Earthlings as well. So while Chiaotzu's base level might be 610, his combat power might be 700 or something, and his Dodonpa would jump all the way into the low thousands.

It's also worth noting that Goku ran the length of Serpent Road while wearing his weighted gear. The other dead guys probably weren't wearing theirs when they went to Kaio's (save for Piccolo).

How do we know Chiaotzu's 610 is his base level? Krillin's base level is 1,083 according to Nappa's scouter, and it's 1,770 at combat level according to the same guide that lists Chiaotzu as 610, which means that Chiaotzu's 610 is his combat level.

You do have a point in Goku using his weighted clothing though. That would certainly slow him down.

LightBing · Post by **LightBing** » Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:42 am

dragonball0900 wrote:There's something that I have the need to point out regarding the power levels before Z. It's that Goku and Piccolo can't be that far above from 416 and 408.

During the Namek arc, King Kai said that Piccolo, Tien, Yamcha and Chiaotzu all managed to run along the snake way faster than Goku. Yeah, that includes Chiaotzu, who has a power level of 610. I think that itself would indicate that Goku and Piccolo in the beggining of Z have to obligatorily be below Chiaotzu's 610. Anywhere between 408/416 up to probably the 500 range would be possible. What do you think?

I imagine at that point Goku's flying was still very inefficient and that's why he had to run most of it. The others besides being stronger were better at flying; Piccolo, Tenshinhan and Chiaotzu definitely were.

I like to imagine them like a cycling peloton, Piccolo ahead drafting and others behind in pecking order. I mean they did arrive together and Piccolo should have easily out race them if he so desired.

apex_pretador · Post by **apex_pretador** » Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:57 am

dragonball0900 wrote:There's something that I have the need to point out regarding the power levels before Z. It's that Goku and Piccolo can't be that far above from 416 and 408.

During the Namek arc, King Kai said that Piccolo, Tien, Yamcha and Chiaotzu all managed to run along the snake way faster than Goku. Yeah, that includes Chiaotzu, who has a power level of 610. I think that itself would indicate that Goku and Piccolo in the beggining of Z have to obligatorily be below Chiaotzu's 610. Anywhere between 408/416 up to probably the 500 range would be possible. What do you think?

Chiaotzu could easily fly over the snake way, which means he would travel in straight path, not including any twists and turns or anything. Also as others have mentioned, goku was wearing his weights, which would slow him down.

DBZ Macky · Post by **DBZ Macky** » Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:23 am

apex_pretador wrote:
dragonball0900 wrote:There's something that I have the need to point out regarding the power levels before Z. It's that Goku and Piccolo can't be that far above from 416 and 408.

During the Namek arc, King Kai said that Piccolo, Tien, Yamcha and Chiaotzu all managed to run along the snake way faster than Goku. Yeah, that includes Chiaotzu, who has a power level of 610. I think that itself would indicate that Goku and Piccolo in the beggining of Z have to obligatorily be below Chiaotzu's 610. Anywhere between 408/416 up to probably the 500 range would be possible. What do you think?
Chiaotzu could easily fly over the snake way, which means he would travel in straight path, not including any twists and turns or anything. Also as others have mentioned, goku was wearing his weights, which would slow him down.

It's not obligatory. Chaozu and Tenshinhan were also a lot more accustomed to Bukujutsu than Goku. About Yamcha, he's always been portrayed as a speedster (Goku praising his speed at the 21st Budokai and what-not) so it wouldn't contradict anything even if they were actually weaker than Goku.

ZombieVito · Post by **ZombieVito** » Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:48 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:So... Does anyone want to see my PLs list for Z? I'm asking now because nobody cares when i send my lists.

I personally don't bother with lists that don't have base Goku under Freeza in BoG.

DanielSSJ · Post by **DanielSSJ** » Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:21 pm

Hey, ZombieVito, since it was discussed recently, what are your thoughts on the whole "half-power King Piccolo" conundrum? I know you usually side with official battle powers, so I was wondering what you think about that subject.

ZombieVito · Post by **ZombieVito** » Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:23 am

DanielSSJ wrote:Hey, ZombieVito, since it was discussed recently, what are your thoughts on the whole "half-power King Piccolo" conundrum? I know you usually side with official battle powers, so I was wondering what you think about that subject.

Well Kaboom's explanation is as good as we are going to get.

I just see those statements as being retconned by Toriyama after he came up with the idea of scouters. I even remember Piccolo saying that he was multiple times stronger than Daimao while fighting Goku.

emperior · Post by **emperior** » Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:21 am

Multipliers
Oozaru - 10x
Super Saiyan (SSJ) - 50x
Super Saiyan 2 (SSJ2) - 100x
Super Saiyan 3 (SSJ3) - 400x
Super Saiyan God (SSG) - 40,000x

Dragon Ball Minus

[spoiler]Jaco - 150
Bardock - 2,500
Gine - 1,000

Bardock (Last Stand) - 10,000[/spoiler]

Dragon Ball Z

Spoiler:

Dragon Ball Super Power Levels

Spoiler:

GreatSaiyaman123 · Post by **GreatSaiyaman123** » Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:46 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:So... Does anyone want to see my PLs list for Z? I'm asking now because nobody cares when i send my lists.
I personally don't bother with lists that don't have base Goku under Freeza in BoG.

Why not? Freeza > Base Saiyans is not an absolute rule, since DBS manga doesn't implies it and there is some things to implie the opposite, and the powers don't have a ceiling to make the gaps thight. It's literally ignore a opinion just because it's different. My list still a work in progress, and it's really different from the others lists around here.

DanielSSJ wrote:Hey, ZombieVito, since it was discussed recently, what are your thoughts on the whole "half-power King Piccolo" conundrum? I know you usually side with official battle powers, so I was wondering what you think about that subject.

I'm not ZombieVito, but i'm answering this. I take all those statements literally, but you can just be creative and say it's half of the full extension of his power or something. Personally, i don't think Toriyama really cares about the power levels, that's shown by BoZ Roshi being 78% of Yamcha, while the gap is supposed to be multifolder due to Yamcha ~ Young Daimao >>> Old Daimao >>> 22nd Goku >>= Roshi.

ZombieVito · Post by **ZombieVito** » Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:21 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:So... Does anyone want to see my PLs list for Z? I'm asking now because nobody cares when i send my lists.
I personally don't bother with lists that don't have base Goku under Freeza in BoG.
Why not? Freeza > Base Saiyans is not an absolute rule, since DBS manga doesn't implies it and there is some things to implie the opposite, and the powers don't have a ceiling to make the gaps thight. It's literally ignore a opinion just because it's different. My list still a work in progress, and it's really different from the others lists around here.

I'm sorry but it is. Battle of Gods was written by Toriyama.

It's not even debatable.

DanielSSJ · Post by **DanielSSJ** » Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:20 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:I'm not ZombieVito, but i'm answering this. I take all those statements literally, but you can just be creative and say it's half of the full extension of his power or something. Personally, i don't think Toriyama really cares about the power levels, that's shown by BoZ Roshi being 78% of Yamcha, while the gap is supposed to be multifolder due to Yamcha ~ Young Daimao >>> Old Daimao >>> 22nd Goku >>= Roshi.

The only one of the earthlings who needs to be up there on Daimao's level during the 23rd TB is Tenshinhan. And I kinda have the mindset that battle powers aren't exactly static, so Yamcha's could've risen to around 200 something when he actually started fighting. Or since Yamcha's pursuing a career in baseball in the anime, maybe he's slacked off a little by the time of the Saiyan arc. Maybe he was like 180~190 during the 23rd Budokai.

GreatSaiyaman123 · Post by **GreatSaiyaman123** » Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:36 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:
I personally don't bother with lists that don't have base Goku under Freeza in BoG.
Why not? Freeza > Base Saiyans is not an absolute rule, since DBS manga doesn't implies it and there is some things to implie the opposite, and the powers don't have a ceiling to make the gaps thight. It's literally ignore a opinion just because it's different. My list still a work in progress, and it's really different from the others lists around here.
I'm sorry but it is. Battle of Gods was written by Toriyama.

It's not even debatable.

The same Toriyama who wrote the whole DBZ series, with Vegeta impling he can win the tournament in base, Kaioshin wetting his pants with Vegeta beating Pocus, 28th Budokai Goku keeping up with Uub (Who's Kid Buu level), Trunks somewhat keeping up with #18 and the Cell Arc hax that make impossible the saiyans be less than 50x what Goku was on Namek. Beerus only wanted to go straight into the point an see all Goku have.

DanielSSJ wrote:
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:I'm not ZombieVito, but i'm answering this. I take all those statements literally, but you can just be creative and say it's half of the full extension of his power or something. Personally, i don't think Toriyama really cares about the power levels, that's shown by BoZ Roshi being 78% of Yamcha, while the gap is supposed to be multifolder due to Yamcha ~ Young Daimao >>> Old Daimao >>> 22nd Goku >>= Roshi.
The only one of the earthlings who needs to be up there on Daimao's level during the 23rd TB is Tenshinhan. And I kinda have the mindset that battle powers aren't exactly static, so Yamcha's could've risen to around 200 something when he actually started fighting. Or since Yamcha's pursuing a career in baseball in the anime, maybe he's slacked off a little by the time of the Saiyan arc. Maybe he was like 180~190 during the 23rd Budokai.

Tenshinhan actually is supposed to be >/>> Daimao, since he overhelmed Goku (Who was as fast as his post Choushinsui self) with his speed. Yamcha should be ~ Kuririn due to status quo, and i doubt Piccolo would call Kuririn a trouble if he was weaker than his father. I used to follow this "stand by level" for a while until i abandoned Scouters on Pre Z.
One of the biggest troubles on a scouter list from Pre Z is the level we have for the humans. Gaps are pretty thight between Tenshinhan and Roshi, and Tenshinhan is too far from Weighted Goku, while they were supposed to be almost the same.

DanielSSJ · Post by **DanielSSJ** » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:16 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:The same Toriyama who wrote the whole DBZ series, with Vegeta impling he can win the tournament in base, Kaioshin wetting his pants with Vegeta beating Pocus, 28th Budokai Goku keeping up with Uub (Who's Kid Buu level), Trunks somewhat keeping up with #18 and the Cell Arc hax that make impossible the saiyans be less than 50x what Goku was on Namek. Beerus only wanted to go straight into the point an see all Goku have.

The key word there is "implying". All those things you mentioned might "imply" that the base Saiyans are above Freeza, but they can easily be interpreted in other ways.
- Vegeta's posturing could be taken as him claiming superiority over the other Saiyans, or just good ol' posturing.
- Everything to do with Kaioshin and Bobbidi's goons can be explained by "Bobbidi's goons' strength can't be directly sensed, and Kaioshin is acting overly cautious due to previous Majin Boo related trauma".
- Goku's fighting a little kid with Pure Boo's power and no control over it. Hence the fact that he can hold his own, but forfeits the match so he can teach Oob use that power.
- If you're referring to the kids fighting No. 18 in the tournament, they weren't really holding their own. No. 18 was kicking their butts until they went Super, and the only reason she didn't immediately knock them out cold was because she was struggling to keep herself at a level low enough that she wouldn't immediately kill the competition.
- There's a lot of power leap-frogging going on in the Cell Arc, but it certainly isn't impossible to keep the base Saiyans below Freeza and SS Goku. In my list, they all average at around less than half that. A moderate increase between then and Majin Boo and a tiny one between Boo and Beerus still leaves Goku and the gang at less than Freeza's full strength.

Tenshinhan actually is supposed to be >/>> Daimao, since he overhelmed Goku (Who was as fast as his post Choushinsui self) with his speed. Yamcha should be ~ Kuririn due to status quo, and i doubt Piccolo would call Kuririn a trouble if he was weaker than his father. I used to follow this "stand by level" for a while until i abandoned Scouters on Pre Z.
One of the biggest troubles on a scouter list from Pre Z is the level we have for the humans. Gaps are pretty thight between Tenshinhan and Roshi, and Tenshinhan is too far from Weighted Goku, while they were supposed to be almost the same.

Being faster than someone doesn't necessarily make you stronger overall, as seen with guys like Butta and Grade 3 Trunks. Tenshinhan could've just done training that benefitted speed and reflexes and still be overall weaker than Piccolo. Or heck, Kid Goku might've been a little slow for his power back in the day, what with those short legs. And I don't think Piccolo being slightly impressed by Kuririn is irrefutable evidence that he's stronger than Piccolo Daimao.

GreatSaiyaman123 · Post by **GreatSaiyaman123** » Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:50 pm

DanielSSJ wrote:The key word there is "implying". All those things you mentioned might "imply" that the base Saiyans are above Freeza, but they can easily be interpreted in other ways.
- Vegeta's posturing could be taken as him claiming superiority over the other Saiyans, or just good ol' posturing.
- Everything to do with Kaioshin and Bobbidi's goons can be explained by "Bobbidi's goons' strength can't be directly sensed, and Kaioshin is acting overly cautious due to previous Majin Boo related trauma".
- Goku's fighting a little kid with Pure Boo's power and no control over it. Hence the fact that he can hold his own, but forfeits the match so he can teach Oob use that power.
- If you're referring to the kids fighting No. 18 in the tournament, they weren't really holding their own. No. 18 was kicking their butts until they went Super, and the only reason she didn't immediately knock them out cold was because she was struggling to keep herself at a level low enough that she wouldn't immediately kill the competition.
- There's a lot of power leap-frogging going on in the Cell Arc, but it certainly isn't impossible to keep the base Saiyans below Freeza and SS Goku. In my list, they all average at around less than half that. A moderate increase between then and Majin Boo and a tiny one between Boo and Beerus still leaves Goku and the gang at less than Freeza's full strength.

Yeah, you can interpret those moments the way you want. Same with Beerus quote, Piccolo's quote on Post ROSAT Gotenks and many others.
-He said that while 18 was standing right next to her. I think someone would correct Vegeta if he was just, you know, being Vegeta.
-I don't think Kaioshin is weaker than Base Saiyans/Pui Pui/Yakon, it's quite the opposite: I'd put him on FP Cell+ if wasn't by Gohan pulling the Z Sword as a SSJ. But the way he threats Freeza as a big deal and uses him as a measure stick, and after Vegeta kills Pocus he says "I never dreamed they were this powerful..." what implies they are worlds above anything he knows, including Freeza.
-It's a kid with no control over his power, but he still have the power. And someone who is ~ Freeza wouldn't last a second against someone as strong as Kid Buu.
-They actually block their punches, but couldn't move due to the clothes and Goten being dead weigh, they fought pretty well considering the desvantages they had. 18 started holding back, but the kids didn't. 18 had to put more effort to fights the kids.
-Here's why i don't think Freeza > Base Saiyans can't work on Cell Arc:

[spoiler]SSJ Namek Goku: 150
Organic Freeza: 140
Freeza and Goku fight evenly until Freeza's stamina goes down the drain

Cyborg Freeza: 154
Kind Cold: 120
SSJ Trunks: 175
SSJ Goku: 190
Freeza states he powered up, but isn't sure enough and brings his father. Trunks is supposed to effortlessy manhandle even FP Freeza (He's not the type of fighter who subestimate his opponent, but he told Freeza to power up with a smile on his face), but for the sake of this post i'm ignoring it. and Goku is somewhat above him.

SSJ Vegeta: 300
SSJ Goku: 285

He speedblitzed everyone. Goku knows how fast Cell is.
SSJ Trunks: 270
Piccolo: 240
The SSJ tier of Android Arc. Nothing much to say here tbh.

Cyborg 18: 440
Cyborg 17: 450
Weighted Kamiccolo: 400
Gingertown Cell: 320
FP Kamiccolo: 450
18 tanks a punch and a blast from Vegeta (Who has his SSJ strain affecting him) and 17 is a bit above her. Kamiccolo fight evenly with 17, and while weighted owns Cell, who's above the SSJs.

Piccolo's Light Grenade: 675
Humans Cell: 1,125
Android 16: 1,125
Piccolo considers Saiyan Arc KHH old fashion and his best blast even scratched Cell. I usually go with a 1,33x boost for Saiyan Arc KHH, but here i lowballed to 1,25x and Light Grenade can fall from 1,8x to 1,5x. 16 fights evenly with Cell until he absorbs 17.

Semi Cell: 2,250
SSJ Vegeta: 2,500
SSJ Trunks: 2,400
SSJG2 Vegeta (Semi Cell's estimative): 3,000
FP Semi Cell: 3,375
SSJG2 Vegeta: 4,500
SSJG2 Trunks: 4,320
Perfect Cell: 9,000
Piccolo is blown away by SSJG2's power up and FP Semi Cell is confident on taking someone who ragdolled his Initial self, but he still getting stomped. This implies a massive gap between SSJG2 Vegeta and Initial Semi Cell, but the gap between him and Perfect Cell his also huge, he tanks not only a kick but a Chi blast barrage from Vegeta like it's nothing.

After this i don't have do proceed anymore, since Warming up MSSJ Goku fights evenly with Perfect Cell and an hypothetical warming up base Goku would be a 180.[/spoiler]

Being faster than someone doesn't necessarily make you stronger overall, as seen with guys like Butta and Grade 3 Trunks. Tenshinhan could've just done training that benefitted speed and reflexes and still be overall weaker than Piccolo. Or heck, Kid Goku might've been a little slow for his power back in the day, what with those short legs. And I don't think Piccolo being slightly impressed by Kuririn is irrefutable evidence that he's stronger than Piccolo Daimao.

I doubt Tenshinhan would train to be off balance like that. If he trains, he'd train to have everything high, not only his speed. And Goku wasn't just "a little slow" than Tenshinhan, he had an clearly advantage.

DanielSSJ · Post by **DanielSSJ** » Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:01 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: -Here's why i don't think Freeza > Base Saiyans can't work on Cell Arc:

I think the biggest problem here is the Cell tanking the Light Grenade part. I've always been of the opinion that if these guys can amplify their offensive abilities when they focus their ki for super moves, they should be able to do the same with their defensive abilities. With that in mind, Cell doesn't have to be nearly three times stronger than Piccolo here, which tones down the power creep considerably, though I think some of those gaps are pretty extreme. It might help to look at things additively rather than multiplicatively.

Here's some numbers:
[spoiler]Freeza Arc
SS Goku: 150
100% Freeza: 120
[official stuff.]

Trunks Arc
Mecha Freeza: 150
Papa Cold: 90~100
SS Trunks: 175
SS Goku: 180
[Freeza's stronger than he was and might be enough to take on Goku, but he brings his somewhat weaker daddy along for insurance. Trunks is strong and skilled enough to take down the new-and-improved but distracted Freeza (who might've not been at full power, considering he was still pretty skinny). Goku improved too and bit tougher than Trunks.]

Androids Arc
SS Goku: 240
SS Vegeta: 250
SS Trunks: 220
[All are roughly on the same level, being moderately stronger than Goku and Trunks from three years ago.]

Piccolo: 180
-- + God: 360
-- Exhausted Light Grenade: 500
[Notably weaker than the Super Saiyans, but doubles that power when he fuses with God (now bow) and is tough enough to tango with No. 17. Ends up exhausting himself before Cell shows up, which probably affected his Light Grenade's power]

No. 16: 480
No. 17: 360
No. 18: 320
[No. 18 is quite a bit stronger than Vegeta, No. 17 is a smidge above her, and No. 16 is a lot above both of them.]

Imperfect Cell: 270
-- + humans: 480
-- concentrating defence: 600
[Starts off stronger than the mega monkeys, but is weaker than Piccolo or the twins. Eats a bunch of humans and is now on par with No. 16. Bracing himself allows him to tank Piccolo's super blast.]

Cell Arc
Semi-perfect Cell: 720
-- powered up: 840
Perfect Cell: 1,000
--less suppressed: 1,500
[Full power Semi-Cell is Imp. Cell + No. 17. Stronger than the 'droids, but weaker than Super Vegeta. Perfect Cell is above Vegeta (who might be experiencing some level of fatigue for being in Grade 2 for so long).]

SS Vegeta: 850
-- Grade 2: 1,300
SS Trunks: 800
-- Grade 2: 1,200
-- Grade 3: 1,800
[Trunks implies that Vegeta might've been able to beat Semi-Cell with regular Super Saiyan, but Grade 2 is definitely overkill. Not quite enough for Perfect Cell, though. Trunks is overall a bit weaker than Vegeta, but his Grade 3 power puts everyone to shame. To bad that form has garbage speed and that Cell wasn't even trying in the first place!]

SS Goku: 3,000
-- half power: 1,500
[Goku's half strength is enough to send everyone on the lookout into panic mode, meaning he's at least stronger than Super Vegeta. Might not necessarily be stronger than Grade 3 Trunks, since that form was deemed completely irrelevant almost immediately. I thought on par with the Cell that kicked Vegeta's face in would be appropriate here.][/spoiler]
All the way to the Cell Games, and Goku's only at Freeza's half power in base.

Kanzenshuu

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