Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[dbgtFO]

Hold on. That's completely wrong.

It's 100% officially proven that Base Vegito > Hypothetical Gohkan:

But what does the scan even say???

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Hold on. That's completely wrong.

It's 100% officially proven that Base Vegito > Hypothetical Gohkan:

But what does the scan even say???

The scan simply says that Base Vegito >> Hypothetical Base Gokhan.

[dbgtFO]

Hold on. That's completely wrong.

It's 100% officially proven that Base Vegito > Hypothetical Gohkan:

But what does the scan even say???

The scan simply says that Base Vegito >> Hypothetical Base Gokhan.

Do you want to translate the whole thing instead of paraphrasing?

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

But what does the scan even say???

The scan simply says that Base Vegito >> Hypothetical Base Gokhan.

Do you want to translate the whole thing instead of paraphrasing?

So I should translate it all so you guys wouldn't think I'm making this up? If so, I'll do so. Tell me

[dbgtFO]

The scan simply says that Base Vegito >> Hypothetical Base Gokhan.

Do you want to translate the whole thing instead of paraphrasing?

So I should translate it all so you guys wouldn't think I'm making this up? If so, I'll do so. Tell me

Yeah, basically. I don't understand Spanish that well, but I can see that it mentions something about a merger between Goku and Gohan at the end.
Getting the entire thing translated would just bring clarity to me, that's all.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Do you want to translate the whole thing instead of paraphrasing?

So I should translate it all so you guys wouldn't think I'm making this up? If so, I'll do so. Tell me

Yeah, basically. I don't understand Spanish that well, but I can see that it mentions something about a merger between Goku and Gohan at the end.
Getting the entire thing translated would just bring clarity to me, that's all.

The first paragraphs is all general talk about Vegito.

The last Part is this:

Spanish:

Si Goku y Gohan se hubieran fusionado es probable que no hubieran alcanzado semejante nivel

English:

If Goku and Gohan had merged, they probably would not have reached such a level

And we already have explanations over Potara's power. Rival Boost Played one hell of a part here. It was never contradicted, and so it stands

[DBZ Macky]

Hold on. That's completely wrong.

It's 100% officially proven that Base Vegito > Hypothetical Gohkan:



This Guide is most reliable.

The Manga NEVER contradicted it. The anime however furthered this point.

What guide even is that?

El Manga Legendario. Made by Bird studio, Akira's main studio. They have the best informations regarding the dbz cast:

From searching it up a bit on google, I found this Kanzenshuu thread.
The guidebook is as accurate as the English dub statement about the Kaioshins being thousands of times stronger than Freeza, and Goku being the "hope of the universe".

But if it doesn't contradict anything, then I'm willing to read what it says.

That being said, I don't even think it mentions anything about Base Vegetto, it's clearly speaking about Super Vegetto right from the bat. So if it says Vegetto is much stronger than Goku and Vegeta, it pretty clearly only means that Super Vegetto > Goku & Vegeta. Though I don't really speak Spanish(?), so I'd appreciate if someone could actually translate it.

[dbgtFO]

The first paragraphs is all general talk about Vegito.

The last Part is this:

Spanish:

Si Goku y Gohan se hubieran fusionado es probable que no hubieran alcanzado semejante nivel

English:

If Goku and Gohan had merged, they probably would not have reached such a level

And we already have explanations over Potara's power. Rival Boost Played one hell of a part here. It was never contradicted, and so it stands

Oh, okay thank you for the effort

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

The guidebook is as accurate as the English dub statement about the Kaioshins being thousands of times stronger than Freeza, and Goku being the "hope of the universe".

The engagement on this guide is the same to possibly better than Daizenshuu. I don't see what you mean by "as accurate as the english dub". This guide has clarified multiple stuff in regards to the dbz cast and mostly support the dbz cast better than daizenshuu at some parts. Using this guide is good source. So I would like to see how this is "as accurate as the english dub"

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

What guide even is that?

El Manga Legendario. Made by Bird studio, Akira's main studio. They have the best informations regarding the dbz cast:

From searching it up a bit on google, I found this Kanzenshuu thread.
The guidebook is as accurate as the English dub statement about the Kaioshins being thousands of times stronger than Freeza, and Goku being the "hope of the universe".

But if it doesn't contradict anything, then I'm willing to read what it says.

That being said, I don't even think it mentions anything about Base Vegetto, it's clearly speaking about Super Vegetto right from the bat. So if it says Vegetto is much stronger than Goku and Vegeta, it pretty clearly only means that Super Vegetto > Goku & Vegeta. Though I don't really speak Spanish(?), so I'd appreciate if someone could actually translate it.

This thread:

[spoiler]viewtopic.php?t=38328[/spoiler]

Furthers the point that it's actually very reliable and can be considered as official facts.

I gathered all of Vol. 31 - 40 and vol. 1 - 3, with other random pages from other volumes. I can drop them if you want.
The following is some clarifications regarding it.

[spoiler]Dragon Ball The Legend of Manga, por Salvat
Salvat, la distribuidora española de colecciones en kioscos ha lanzado al mercado recientemente su última adquisición, Dragon Ball The Legend of Manga (Dragon Ball El manga legendario). Se trata de una colección con toda la historia de Akira Toriyama y Dragon Ball escrita por Yoshihiko Tozawa, Natsuo Funatsu y Yuichi Shimizu que lanzó Shueisha el pasado año en Japón. Además, cada número incluye una figura de la serie de entre 8 cm y 10 cm formando un total de 50 entregas.

El fascículo trae consigo información sobre las sagas y el transcurso de la serie, imágenes, resúmenes de capítulos, actividades e ilustraciones a color de Akira Toriyama en 19 páginas. Este primer número vale 1.50€, viene con la figura de Goku Super Saiyan, y de regalo trae consigo un póster gigante.
http://ramenparados.blogspot.com.br/200 ... alvat.html

Depuis le 7 août 2008 est disponible chez votre marchands de journaux une nouvelle collection Hachette sur Dragon Ball. Il s'agit d'un magazine accompagné d'une figurine, d'un fascicule et d'une brochure de présentation.

Hachette travaille en étroite collaboration avec l'éditeur Japonais du manga Dragon Ball: Shueisha. C'est Shueisha qui crée le contenu des fascicules et développe les moules des figurines spécialement pour cette collection.

DRAGON BALL THE LEGEND OF MANGA @ 2007 by BIRD STUDIO/SHUEISHA Inc.
http://www.dragon-ball-z.org/dossier-1- ... gende.html

Here: viewtopic.php?t=15533&start=1040[/spoiler]

[Kaboom]

The way I usually rationalize the abnormally high base power of a Goku-Gohan Fusion is that it's thanks to Gohan's new power structure.

After undergoing the Old Kaioshin's ritual, Gohan can now tap into all his power without having to go Super Saiyan, and that would shine through with 'Kuhan' too. Except Goku is the opposite, getting 99% of his power from Super Saiyan 1 through 3. Mixed together, Kuhan may have ended up with an extremely powerful, quasi-Ultimate base form, already strong enough to handle Gotenks/Gohan-Boo, but he then gains minimal power from Super Saiyan.

Vegetto, on the other hand, is stronger overall because Goku and Vegeta are a better match for Fusion, but he has a much more standard Super Saiyan power structure because they both still do. So he actually needs to use Super Saiyan to beat Boo, but has a much easier time when he does.

Vegetto: 1 / Super Saiyan: 50
Kuhan: 20 / Super Saiyan: 40
Gotenks-Boo: 10 / Gohan-Boo: 15

Something like that.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I just want to see your opinion guys. Where do you place Kaioshin in the cell games? Where do you place him in the buu saga?

Just I really wanna know

I have him on pair with Goten and CG Goku, and a bit weaker than SSJ Teen Gohan. In numbers:

Cell Games
SSJ Goku: 108
Cell (With holding speed): 120
SSJ Gohan: 162
Cell Jr: 75
SSJ Vegeta, Trunks: 70
Piccolo: 60

Buu Arc
SSJ Goten: 108
SSJ Trunks: 112,5
SSJ Gohan: 120
SSJ Vegeta: 144
SSJ Goku: 180
Piccolo: 70
Kaioshin: 108

Am I the only one who doesn't think Base Vegetto is actually stronger than SS3 Goku? I'd say he's probably a bit stronger than SS Goku (around Super Perfect Cell), but that's about it.

He's clearly weaker than Buuhan, who literally does not stop mentioning how he's just toying around with him. It had been stated in the Anime several times (I lost count), that Buu had been holding back on him. Not to mention that Base Vegetto's greatest feat is him deflecting Buu's planetary ball, and he did seem pretty proud of it too, as if it was almost all he was capable of. Which again, puts him somewhere below Super Perfect Cell who boasted about being able to destroy the entire solar system.

Well, there is that statement that fusions > individuals, but i think it's refering to equal forms, since Base Gotenks >> SSJ Kids seems bloated.

Besides anime, Base Vegetto is completely featless. I just like to put Super Vegetto 3x stronger and see what i have for his base. Right know i have him between SSJ and SSJ2 Gotenks.

[DanielSSJ]

This answer is fair enough, since in El Manga Legendario it is confirmed Kaioshin = Ssj Goku cell Games. But there is enough evidence suggesting that Base Goku Buu saga > Kaioshin. How would you react to that?

Is El Manga Legendario that thing that said Grade 3 was 10 times stronger than Grade 2? If so, it's probably not a reliable source of information.

The only thing that I can think of that implies Kaioshin being weaker than the base Saiyans is how Vegeta manhandled Pui-Pui, who Kaioshin was nervous about taking on. It's easily explained by how A) like with Spopovich and Yamu before, most of Bobbidi's goons don't have detectable power, and B) Kaioshin is just cautious to the point of paranoia when dealing with anything involving Bobbidi or Majin Boo.'

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

This answer is fair enough, since in El Manga Legendario it is confirmed Kaioshin = Ssj Goku cell Games. But there is enough evidence suggesting that Base Goku Buu saga > Kaioshin. How would you react to that?

Is El Manga Legendario that thing that said Grade 3 was 10 times stronger than Grade 2? If so, it's probably not a reliable source of information.

The only thing that I can think of that implies Kaioshin being weaker than the base Saiyans is how Vegeta manhandled Pui-Pui, who Kaioshin was nervous about taking on. It's easily explained by how A) like with Spopovich and Yamu before, most of Bobbidi's goons don't have detectable power, and B) Kaioshin is just cautious to the point of paranoia when dealing with anything involving Bobbidi or Majin Boo.'

No, nothing suggests it's unreliable at all. This guide never contradicted anything, instead it clarified multiple issues. Regarding this topic, there is no contradiction.

Pui Pui isn't anywhere near "the only proof". While it can be taken into consideration as a good source, sure, it can be countered. But it can also be furthered by multiple poof

I made a full analysis over the topic on DBZ Amino with concrete evidence:

[spoiler]http://aminoapps.com/page/dragonballz/8 ... rfect-cell[/spoiler]

Although I'm planning to extend my analysis even further on Kanzenshuu with full evidences better than those. (100% concrete evidence at that)

[DBZ Macky]

Besides anime, Base Vegetto is completely featless. I just like to put Super Vegetto 3x stronger and see what i have for his base. Right know i have him between SSJ and SSJ2 Gotenks.

His feats aren't as impressive in the Anime either, where Buu clearly states multiple times that he's holding back... a lot.

"Is that so, I was still trying to hold back on you"
"I was planning on playing around with you a bit more"
Not to mention that he visibly powers up with an aura and everything after Vegetto transforms.

And he establishes his superiority above Base Vegetto too, stating to him "you still cannot say you have surpassed me" among various other grins and smirks that further show his confidence.

Even Elder Kaioshin expresses doubt at Vegetto's ability to win against Buu.

Kibitoshin: He can win against Majin Buu!
Elder Kaioshin: No! We cannot tell... The fight's outcome, you see, is a matter of fortune.
Perhaps it was a matter of fortune because they couldn't tell how much Buu was holding back, and how much stronger Vegetto would get by transforming?

Then, let's check out Base Vegetto's best feat. Now, I know that feats are usually inconsistent, especially when it comes to Anime-exclusive stuff, but we literally have only that one feat in the entire Manga/Anime and absolutely no direct statements about Base Vegetto's strength. Buu throws a big-ass attack... but it's only stated to be able to wipe out the planet. Although he does say that the Earth would vanish instantly without a trace if the attack hits, that's still not as impressive as Super Perfect Cell's claim about him being able to destroy the entire Solar System.

Now, Vegetto repels the energy ball easily and kicks it out of orbit, but he seems pretty proud of it, a little too proud, as if that was almost the best he could do.
Buu states "What's that smug look for? Are you proud of yourself for bouncing that back just now?" further emphasizing this, too.

But, Super Vegetto still can't just be 3x stronger than SS3 Goku, since that would peg Base Vegetto weaker than SS Goku, which doesn't seem possible going by Buu's statement after Vegetto damages him (which, it seems, he let Vegetto do on purpose).
" I see. You do seem stronger than you were when it was the two of you"

He repeats something along these lines once again after Vegetto deflects his energy ball.
"You certainly have become stronger"

Though, when it was "the two of them", Goku and Vegeta were fighting as regular Super Saiyans. And Buu doesn't seem to sure in the first statement either, so Base Vegetto should be comparable to (and slightly stronger than) Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta.

It's only after Super Vegetto appears that Buu loses his edge, visibly powers up... and still gets stomped easily.

So, finally, this is how I view Vegetto, Buu (Gohan absorbed), Goku and Vegeta's strength on the Kili scale, with Super Perfect Cell thrown in as a reference.

Base Vegeta= 60
Base Goku= 60
SS Vegeta= 3,000
SS Goku= 3,000
Base Vegetto= 3,600 (Hey! The Vegetto = Goku x Vegeta entry works surprisingly well here without any contradictions or unnecessary bloat!)
Buuhan (Suppressed)= 4,000
Super Perfect Cell= 5,000
Buuhan (Full Power)= 80,000
Super Vegetto= 180,000

Of course, this is for the Anime but fits in well with how it scaled for me in the Manga as well. I'd appreciate if you guys could share your thoughts as well

[Helios518]

Base Vegeta= 60
Base Goku= 60
SS Vegeta= 3,000
SS Goku= 3,000
Base Vegetto= 3,600 (Hey! The Vegetto = Goku x Vegeta entry works surprisingly well here without any contradictions or unnecessary bloat!)
Buuhan (Suppressed)= 4,000
Super Perfect Cell= 5,000
Buuhan (Full Power)= 80,000
Super Vegetto= 180,000

Of course, this is for the Anime but fits in well with how it scaled for me in the Manga as well. I'd appreciate if you guys could share your thoughts as well

Hmm, are you using the "Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto" thing as an example or as a fact on how the Potaras work? If it's the latter, then that formula doesn't work when you apply it to much bigger numbers or regular power levels.

[DBZ Macky]

Hmm, are you using the "Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto" thing as an example or as a fact on how the Potaras work? If it's the latter, then that formula doesn't work when you apply it to much bigger numbers or regular power levels.

Yeah, I can understand that. I didn't base the list around that, it's just that it turned out to coincidentally work with how the battle powers scaled for me.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

This answer is fair enough, since in El Manga Legendario it is confirmed Kaioshin = Ssj Goku cell Games. But there is enough evidence suggesting that Base Goku Buu saga > Kaioshin. How would you react to that?

Is El Manga Legendario that thing that said Grade 3 was 10 times stronger than Grade 2? If so, it's probably not a reliable source of information.

The only thing that I can think of that implies Kaioshin being weaker than the base Saiyans is how Vegeta manhandled Pui-Pui, who Kaioshin was nervous about taking on. It's easily explained by how A) like with Spopovich and Yamu before, most of Bobbidi's goons don't have detectable power, and B) Kaioshin is just cautious to the point of paranoia when dealing with anything involving Bobbidi or Majin Boo.'

No, nothing suggests it's unreliable at all. This guide never contradicted anything, instead it clarified multiple issues. Regarding this topic, there is no contradiction.

Pui Pui isn't anywhere near "the only proof". While it can be taken into consideration as a good source, sure, it can be countered. But it can also be furthered by multiple poof

I made a full analysis over the topic on DBZ Amino with concrete evidence:

[spoiler]http://aminoapps.com/page/dragonballz/8 ... rfect-cell[/spoiler]

Although I'm planning to extend my analysis even further on Kanzenshuu with full evidences better than those. (100% concrete evidence at that)

You can't use both CG SSJ Goku ~ Shin and Base Saiyans >>> Shin, those two cut each other. Piccolo couldn't even tell the difference between Majin Vegeta and Kid Gohan, and nothing implies Gohan had such a huge rage boost at the Cell Games. Shin's fear can be explained by the fact that Babidi's minions can't be sensed and he ended up overrating those guys. His feats places him above all the SSJs on Buu Arc, but Gohan releasing the Z Sword puts a cape on this. Holding the Z Sword is inconsistent, after the training base Gohan was holding the Z Sword much better than he was as a SSJ, but his SSJ form can't be that strong since he's supposed to be ~ Fat Buu as a SSJ2.

[dragonball0900]

I just want to see your opinion guys. Where do you place Kaioshin in the cell games? Where do you place him in the buu saga?

Just I really wanna know

Like most people said here, Kaioshin would be equal or just slightly below Cell Games MSSJ Goku. That way he's below SSJ Gohan from the Buu arc, and is well above Buu arc Piccolo, who should be around the level of a Cell Jr.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Sorry, I haven't made my point clear because I'm busy, I'll reply better and more in a detailed way later

You can't use both CG SSJ Goku ~ Shin and Base Saiyans >>> Shin, those two cut each other.

That's more of a speculation that the saiyans never got stronger. This is not cutting anything, nor is this any type of contradiction, until said or shown so, otherwise it would be speculation by thinking that "Base Goku in Buu Saga can't surpass his Ssj CG self".

Piccolo couldn't even tell the difference between Majin Vegeta and Kid Gohan

Nothing new. I clarified this point in my blog on DBZ amino. You can check it again. Otherwise there's no need to go over it to be honest.

and nothing implies Gohan had such a huge rage boost at the Cell Games

Yes there has been an Implification. Gohan in the cell games went Ssj2, while going into that, he pulled up his Potential stored within him. Even since then it was noted that Gohan's Potential was out. It wasn't called a "Ssj2" or a surpassed form more or less from what I remember. The case back then was that his Potential furthered his power. The later events supported that in the show, which I also covered in a very small part on DBZ Amino:

[spoiler]http://aminoapps.com/p/4sxyyx[/spoiler]

All of it would end up adding up.

I also clarified this topic in my blog. I explained it well enough

Ssj2 is simply a power up mutations of Saiyans twice the strength of their Ssj state they're using.

Shin's fear can be explained by the fact that Babidi's minions can't be sensed and he ended up overrating those guys

That would look more like a push though. Supreme Kai knows everything about Babidi's henchmen. Goku "knew" that one of them is enough to beat Pui Pui. Goku can know how powerful his opponents are just by looking at them sensing them out, which he did against them. Heck characters can know by simply feeling someone's own presence. So no. "Overrating" is possible, but not to an astronomical extend, at least that was never shown. Especially that we're talking about the z fighters who fought, which supreme kai wasn't aware of their strengths

His feats places him above all the SSJs on Buu Arc

How would that even come? Especially Goku as a Ssj was gonna kill Supreme Kai as a Ssj

Gohan releasing the Z Sword puts a cape on this. Holding the Z Sword is inconsistent, after the training base Gohan was holding the Z Sword much better than he was as a SSJ

Simply because at first he was Struggling as a Ssj, then he easily lifted it in Base, doesn't mean it's inconsistent. It doesn't work like that. Even later, it's stated that Gohan's handling of It and power is way better than before. I showed in my post how this would actually be good and fine. Gohan in the Buu Saga pre Ultimate is fodder to Vegeta and Goku.

his SSJ form can't be that strong since he's supposed to be ~ Fat Buu as a SSJ2.

To be honest I didn't get what this is.

This isn't detailed enough, but you can go with that. I'll reply later