Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

Well a random Saiyan Child would be stronger surely than the Goku who fought King Piccolo. I don't think there's much more to go on except with Vegeta but he was an exception.

If Jaco can beat a young typical Saiyan then it would seem likely that he was at least probably as strong as Kami. He's somewhere between 300-1,000 I'd guess.

And yeah thinking about it now the henchmen with Frieza laughed at the warrior Namekians with their power level of 1,000 but then there were those other henchmen who were easily done in by Gohan and Krillin at 1,500 and even they probably weren't the scrubs that they were supposed to be in Resurrection F.

[TheUltimateNinja]

How strong can you make the fusions through maximum wanking? This is my attempt using Buu Arc Base Goku as a measuring stick:

Gotenks:
Pre-RoSAT: He was able to survive an encounter with Majin Buu who'd easily killed Vegeta in Base, so this places him well above SSJ2 level. However he couldn't win whereas SSJ3 Goku could, so he's a bit below SSJ3 level.
Base: 350x Goku
SSJ: 17,500x Goku

Post-RoSAT: He's implied to have far surpassed his Pre-RoSAT SSJ in base as Piccolo thinks he'd get crushed as an SSJ Pre-RoSAT but gains hope when he sees Base Gotenks Post RoSAT, so that's a 100x boost at least.
Base: 40,000x Goku
SSJ: 2,000,000x Goku
SSJ3: 16,000,000x Goku

Vegetto:
DBZ: In the anime he's implied to be about as strong as or stronger than Buuhan in base, and Buuhan has Ultimate Gohan's power who's far superior to Gotenks, therefore he's already the strongest being in Z in base.
Base: 50,000,000x Goku.
SSJ: 2,500,000,000x Goku.

Super: First we have to establish SSGod and SSBlue's multipliers. SSGod is far superior to SSJ3 BoG Vegetto who would be a good deal stronger than Buu Arc Vegetto, so let's say SSJ3 Vegetto is at 30,000,000,000x Goku and SSGod Goku is at 150,000,000,000x Buu Arc Goku.

Goku then absorbs this power into base and gains SSBlue which is SSJ combined with the power of SSGod, so let's say it's 50x SSGod's multiplier. This would be a 5,000,000,000,000x multiplier on top of his new SSGod level base which would put him at 750,000,000,000,000,000,000,000x Buu Arc Goku.

Goku then improves a great deal by the tournament and unlocks Kaioken x10, and then by the Trunks Arc he surpasses his Kaioken x10 level in regular SSBlue, so let's say he's become 100x stronger than he was at the start. This would put him at 75,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000x Buu Arc Goku.

Now for Vegetto's power:
Base: 750,000,000,000,000,000,000x Goku.
SSBlue: 3,750,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000x Goku.

[DanielSSJ]

<snip>

I think I just broke my calculator.

[TheUltimateNinja]

<snip>

I think I just broke my calculator.

Counting the zeroes was actually getting pretty difficult towards the end.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Just for fun, I decided to do Gogeta as well.
Gogeta:
Fusion Reborn: He effortlessly destroys Super Janemba within seconds, Janemba is said to be stronger than Hirudegarn who easily crushed Ultimate Gohan, therefore Super Gogeta is well above Buuhan level.
Base: 2,000,000x Goku
SSJ: 100,000,000x Goku

GT: Goku went from being thrashed by Baby Vegeta as an SSJ3 to matching him as an SSJ4 despite Baby powering up and then going Oozaru, so SSJ4 at the very least is well over 10x SSJ3. Let's go with a 10,000x multiplier.

EoZ Base Goku is Kid Buu level, and GT Base Goku is as strong as EoZ SSJ3 Goku, so that's a 160,000x increase there. Let's round it up and say that by the time Gogeta is formed Goku is 500,000x stronger. Combined with SSJ4 that's a 5,000,000,000x increase.

Going with Gogeta being 2,000,000x Goku, his power now would be:
Base: 1,000,000,000,000x Goku.
SSJ4: 10,000,000,000,000,000x Goku.

Unfortunately this shows that even with maximum wanking SSJ4 Gogeta is nowhere close to Super characters.

[Bullza]

Would it be right to say Pre RoSaT Super Saiyan Goten and Trunks are above Piccolo?

[DanielSSJ]

Would it be right to say Pre RoSaT Super Saiyan Goten and Trunks are above Piccolo?

Maybe, maybe not. After Gotenks defused inside Boo, the characteristics Boo took on showed that Piccolo was the dominant absorbee, but that's hardly conclusive evidence, especially since Trunks and Goten appeared to be in their base forms while stuck in Boo's pod things. Although, you could say that Boo can raw out the full power of his victims regardless of what form their in.

I personally have Goten and Trunks being a bit weaker than Piccolo, but that's just me.

[Noah]

I personally have Goten and Trunks being a bit weaker than Piccolo, but that's just me.

Even Post RoSaT?

[DanielSSJ]

I personally have Goten and Trunks being a bit weaker than Piccolo, but that's just me.

Even Post RoSaT?

Yep. To be honest, I don't think that Goten and Trunks improved all that much anyways, or at least not as much as Gotenks did. While they did get more powerful through regular old training, I also think Gotenks got stronger because Goten and Trunks just got better at performing the dance. Less wasteful movements, better timing, that kind of thing. So what was a 50% increase for Goten and Trunks became a 100% increase for Gotenks.

[Doctor.]

How strong can you make the fusions through maximum wanking?

Depends on how strong you consider the base Saiyans. If you think they're stronger than Piccolo in base like some people do, then you can wank the fusions quite a bit.

[Bullza]

Wouldn't Piccolo's shocked reaction to seeing Goten and Trunks turn Super Saiyan be an indicator that they were stronger?

Afterall Goten couldn't have been that far below Gohan and Trunks was a bit stronger and was able to hit Vegeta.

[DanielSSJ]

Wouldn't Piccolo's shocked reaction to seeing Goten and Trunks turn Super Saiyan be an indicator that they were stronger?

Afterall Goten couldn't have been that far below Gohan and Trunks was a bit stronger and was able to hit Vegeta.

You make valid points. On the one hand, Goten was a worthwhile sparring partner for Gohan, Trunks landed a punch against Vegeta, and when they powered up for Fusion, Piccolo reacted in shock, implying that they are pretty strong. On the other hand, the fact that Majin Boo with Piccolo and the kids absorbed took on qualities of Piccolo over the kids, and the fact that the Mighty Mask costume was limiting enough to allow No. 18 the advantage in hand-to-hand despite possessing enough power to scare her with a suppressed Ki blast implies that they aren't so strong, compared to their dads at least.

Personally I shoot for a middle ground between the two, sticking them roughly half way between Android No. 18 and Gohan, which happens to leave them a notch or two below Piccolo.

[Bullza]

Well in Resurrection F Piccolo is supposed to be weaker than Base Gohan. In the Great Saiyaman saga Super Saiyan Goten was weaker than Super Saiyan Gohan but was still strong enough to be a good sparring partner and made Gohan say he could be surpassed if he's not careful.

Would Super Saiyan Gohan back then be stronger than the Base Gohan during Resurrection F?

In DBS Super Saiyan Kid Trunks was strong enough that his power could be sensed from Beerus' planet whereas Piccolo's during Resurrection F seemingly wouldn't have been enough considering it required all of them in the movie or just Super Saiyan Gohan in the series.

That would suggest to me that SSJ Trunks would be stronger than Piccolo and I wouldn't say Piccolo in Resurrection F or SSJ Trunks in the Future Trunks saga were probably too much different from how they were in the Buu saga though obviously that would be closer to Post RoSaT Trunks.

[DanielSSJ]

<snip>

I honestly don't really take Dragon Ball Super into consideration when I do battle powers, given how inconsistent and screwy they are at power relations. The exception being the "base Goku is weaker than Freeza" bit, but that appeared in the film version of Battle of Gods first anyhow. Regarding Resurrection F Gohan and Piccolo, the film version didn't really weigh in on how base Gohan stacked up against Piccolo or anybody really, so as far as we know, he's back down at his pre-Ultimate level, whereas the TV version sorta implied that Gohan possesses some of his Ultimate power. Or it could be Toei animation's habit of downplaying the difference between base and Super Saiyan by having the Saiyans hold off from transforming for dramatic effect.

About how Gohan was supposedly in danger of being surpassed by Goten, I don't really take it as "Goten is already almost as strong as me." More like "Goten is already this strong without any serious training? He could surpass me in a few years if I don't watch it". Besides Goten says that he couldn't even land a single blow on his brother when the first sparred in the same conversation as Gohan worrying about being overtaken by Goten and Trunks, implying that, despite his strength, he's still not quite as strong as his brother just yet. The implications are vague enough that you could take the whole thing multiple ways. There's nothing directly contradicting Goten and Trunks being nearly as strong as their dads, nor is there anything directly contradicting them being only a few notches above No. 18. Or in my case, there's nothing directly contradicting them being somewhere in between those two extremes.

[Bullza]

In the Resurrection F movie Frieza made a comment about how Gohan could wipe out the entire army in an instant if he wanted to as opposed to Piccolo.

That would not be taking into account Super Saiyan either because he said he did not know that he could transform.

That could imply that Gohan was stronger which he definitely was in the anime.

[DanielSSJ]

In the Resurrection F movie Frieza made a comment about how Gohan could wipe out the entire army in an instant if he wanted to as opposed to Piccolo.

That would not be taking into account Super Saiyan either because he said he did not know that he could transform.

That could imply that Gohan was stronger which he definitely was in the anime.

While it implies that Gohan is stronger, it's worth noting that Freeza can't actually sense Ki. Freeza could be assuming that, as a Saiyan, Gohan would be the strongest of the group. And Freeza made that comment in regards to how Gohan was sparing his men, rather than finishing them off for good, and Piccolo might not have come across as that merciful during the fight(I can't actually remember whether or not Piccolo killed any body). Besides, it's not like Piccolo couldn't have wiped out the entire army in a single shot if he wanted to as well.

[ekrolo2]

In the Resurrection F movie Frieza made a comment about how Gohan could wipe out the entire army in an instant if he wanted to as opposed to Piccolo.

That would not be taking into account Super Saiyan either because he said he did not know that he could transform.

That could imply that Gohan was stronger which he definitely was in the anime.

While it implies that Gohan is stronger, it's worth noting that Freeza can't actually sense Ki. Freeza could be assuming that, as a Saiyan, Gohan would be the strongest of the group. And Freeza made that comment in regards to how Gohan was sparing his men, rather than finishing them off for good, and Piccolo might not have come across as that merciful during the fight(I can't actually remember whether or not Piccolo killed any body). Besides, it's not like Piccolo couldn't have wiped out the entire army in a single shot if he wanted to as well.

He tries to kill Shisami so there's precedent for him killing other mooks.

[Noah]

Freeza getting a huge power jump by having trained 4 months and yet doesn't know how to sense Ki is asinine at best

[Lord Beerus]

Freeza getting a huge power jump by having trained 4 months and yet doesn't know how to sense Ki is asinine at best

Getting stronger and learning how to sense ki are two completely different conditions. Any Tom/Dick/Harry can get stronger through any means. But sensing Ki is a skill you have learn or have it taught to you. Unless you're Vegeta...

[Noah]

Unless you're Vegeta...

You said it. It was dumb that Vegeta learned out of nowhere, f*** Saiyan biology, if we go by the "prodigy" route with Vegeta then we must consider the same thing with Freeza, born with 120 mi BP have trained only 4 months to reach a power close to the Gods, he should already have learned the basics.