Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[TheUltimateNinja]

I was going to say if Base Black is say about 500 times as strong as Base Goku then why does Super Saiyan Rose Black not seen more than a few times stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku?

And the guy above has SSJB being a 60x and SSJR being 3x which is sorta like what I mean.

It never really made much sense because Black didn't seem to power up that tremendously when he turned into his Rose form even though it's his equivalent of Super Saiyan Blue.

I tried doing a power level list giving them the same multiplier and it doesn't work.

I don't think Black is 500x Base Goku in the anime, I doubt he's even 200x stronger than Goku.

Anyway, there's a few ways to make this work.

1: Operate under the assumption that Black's total power is Zamasu's + Goku's, and when he transforms only the Goku side gets a boost. At the power level of SSBlue/SSRose, Zamasu's high end SSJ2/low end SSJ3 level power is totally negligible, however in base it would be huge.

2: 2 base theory.

3: Assume Vegeta was holding back a huge amount of power while he was beating on Black.

[Bullza]

Black was stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku and that was before he powered up further after fighting Goku in the present so he should be well over 400x stronger than Base Goku.

I'd guess #1 was the most likely option.

What if all of Blacks power was just Goku + Zamasu? If Zamasu was Super Saiyan 3 level himself then that plus Base Goku would make Base Black vastly more powerful than the other Base Saiyans.

Meanwhile Super Saiyan Rose Black would be Super Saiyan Blue Goku + Zamasu which would be enough to be a good chunk stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku but at that point Zamasu would only be making up a portion of that overall power which is why the percentage gap would be drastically reduced.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Black was stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku and that was before he powered up further after fighting Goku in the present so he should be well over 400x stronger than Base Goku.

I'd guess #1 was the most likely option.

What if all of Blacks power was just Goku + Zamasu? If Zamasu was Super Saiyan 3 level himself then that plus Base Goku would make Base Black vastly more powerful than the other Base Saiyans.

Meanwhile Super Saiyan Rose Black would be Super Saiyan Blue Goku + Zamasu which would be enough to be a good chunk stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku but at that point Zamasu would only be making up a portion of that overall power which is why the percentage gap would be drastically reduced.

How Zamasu and Black are SSJ3 level? They both fight a SSJ2 Goku, and Zamasu barely hold his own. I think #3 in the best option. It's simple and makes sense.

[Bullza]

How Zamasu and Black are SSJ3 level? They both fight a SSJ2 Goku, and Zamasu barely hold his own. I think #3 in the best option. It's simple and makes sense.

Trunks said that Black was a little stronger than SSJ3 Goku and that was before he powered up further. He was supposed to have held back when he fought SSJ2 Goku.

Zamasu is a trickier one to place. He did lose to SSJ2 Goku but he did say he was distracted and could have done better and he held his own fighting against SSJB Goku so for simplicity it wouldn't hurt to say Zamasu was SSJ3 level.

Number 3 wouldn't make sense. It wouldn't matter if Vegeta was holding back. If Black was hundreds of times stronger than Goku and Vegeta when they were all in Base form then he in his Rose form he should be hundreds of times stronger than Blue Goku and Vegeta but he isnt.

[Saiyan007]

Zamasu isn't ssj3 tier he's far stronger than that.Goku said When he fought Zamasu it reminded him of when he fought Beerus, and when Goku was beating Zamasu into submission Gowasu commented that Goku's power rivals the Gods of Destruction.

SSJ2 Goku>Zamasu>SSJG Goku>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SSJ3 Goku

[Rubens]

As far as I see, it only seems to make sense if one assumes that base Black to ssjrosé is a different multiplier - and I think it makes sense: say that Black can access the super saiyan power without needing to transform (a little bit like ultimate Gohan); that way, when he turns rosé, it's like multiplying from ssj3 to ssjblue.

[DBZ Macky]

Isn't Black aready SS3 tier in base anyways?
Maybe Black appears to be in base but is actually as powerful as SS3 Goku? I think it could work like this:

Black- 1
Full Power- 400
SS Rosé- 500

That way, there's not much difference between Base and SSR Black.

[TheUltimateNinja]

How Zamasu and Black are SSJ3 level? They both fight a SSJ2 Goku, and Zamasu barely hold his own. I think #3 in the best option. It's simple and makes sense.

Trunks said that Black was a little stronger than SSJ3 Goku and that was before he powered up further. He was supposed to have held back when he fought SSJ2 Goku.

Zamasu is a trickier one to place. He did lose to SSJ2 Goku but he did say he was distracted and could have done better and he held his own fighting against SSJB Goku so for simplicity it wouldn't hurt to say Zamasu was SSJ3 level.

Number 3 wouldn't make sense. It wouldn't matter if Vegeta was holding back. If Black was hundreds of times stronger than Goku and Vegeta when they were all in Base form then he in his Rose form he should be hundreds of times stronger than Blue Goku and Vegeta but he isnt.

He held his own against SSBlue Goku after almost 20 years of training.

Isn't Black aready SS3 tier in base anyways?
Maybe Black appears to be in base but is actually as powerful as SS3 Goku? I think it could work like this:

Black- 1
Full Power- 400
SS Rosé- 500

That way, there's not much difference between Base and SSR Black.

This would mean that SSBlue is barely stronger than SSJ3 and this is clearly not the case in the anime, maybe in the manga.

[DBZ Macky]

How Zamasu and Black are SSJ3 level? They both fight a SSJ2 Goku, and Zamasu barely hold his own. I think #3 in the best option. It's simple and makes sense.

Trunks said that Black was a little stronger than SSJ3 Goku and that was before he powered up further. He was supposed to have held back when he fought SSJ2 Goku.

Zamasu is a trickier one to place. He did lose to SSJ2 Goku but he did say he was distracted and could have done better and he held his own fighting against SSJB Goku so for simplicity it wouldn't hurt to say Zamasu was SSJ3 level.

Number 3 wouldn't make sense. It wouldn't matter if Vegeta was holding back. If Black was hundreds of times stronger than Goku and Vegeta when they were all in Base form then he in his Rose form he should be hundreds of times stronger than Blue Goku and Vegeta but he isnt.

He held his own against SSBlue Goku after almost 20 years of training.

Isn't Black aready SS3 tier in base anyways?
Maybe Black appears to be in base but is actually as powerful as SS3 Goku? I think it could work like this:

Black- 1
Full Power- 400
SS Rosé- 500

That way, there's not much difference between Base and SSR Black.

This would mean that SSBlue is barely stronger than SSJ3 and this is clearly not the case in the anime, maybe in the manga.

I'm pretty sure nothing implies that Blue is as strong as you seem to think it is. It's a little bit above SS3, that's all.
Everything points towards Blue being close to BASE Saiyan levels in fact, not hundreds of time stronger than SS3 Vegetto.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I'm pretty sure nothing implies that Blue is as strong as you seem to think it is. It's a little bit above SS3, that's all.
Everything points towards Blue being close to BASE Saiyan levels in fact, not hundreds of time stronger than SS3 Vegetto.

SSBlue is stronger than SSGod which is in turn stronger than Vegetto, SSJ3 is nowhere close to Blue.

[DBZ Macky]

I'm pretty sure nothing implies that Blue is as strong as you seem to think it is. It's a little bit above SS3, that's all.
Everything points towards Blue being close to BASE Saiyan levels in fact, not hundreds of time stronger than SS3 Vegetto.

SSBlue is stronger than SSGod which is in turn stronger than Vegetto, SSJ3 is nowhere close to Blue.

Now, where is it stated exactly that SSG is stronger than SS3 Vegetto? I think being a bit stronger than Super Vegetto would be enough really. And that's BEFORE Goku makes the power his own, for all we know, Blue's "multiplier" might not be as high as the original SSG but it's just that Goku has improved so much that SSB is stronger than SSG from back then.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I'm pretty sure nothing implies that Blue is as strong as you seem to think it is. It's a little bit above SS3, that's all.
Everything points towards Blue being close to BASE Saiyan levels in fact, not hundreds of time stronger than SS3 Vegetto.

SSBlue is stronger than SSGod which is in turn stronger than Vegetto, SSJ3 is nowhere close to Blue.

Now, where is it stated exactly that SSG is stronger than SS3 Vegetto? I think being a bit stronger than Super Vegetto would be enough really. And that's BEFORE Goku makes the power his own, for all we know, Blue's "multiplier" might not be as high as the original SSG but it's just that Goku has improved so much that SSB is stronger than SSG from back then.

The narrator outright states that SSBlue is stronger than SSGod, if SSBlue were weaker they would say that Goku has powered up beyond SSGod rather than saying he's obtained a form surpassing SSGod.

[Bullza]

I just thought of something.

People have always kind of assumed that Dabura is about as strong as Perfect Cell instead of Super Perfect Cell and it was kinda implied that Goku and Vegeta could have beaten him as Super Saiyans.

But in the Super manga Trunks as a Super Saiyan was still weaker than Dabura and you'd think that Trunks would be even stronger than Goku and Vegeta for

1. He trained with the Supreme Kai
2. He trained with the Z Sword and mastered it whereas when Goku swung it around it was sluggish.
3. The huge difference there was in Trunks' and Goku's forms when they sparred.

Are we sure that Dabura isn't Super Perfect Cell level? It'd make more sense for a few things.

[Rubens]

As it was discussed before, Dabra can also use magic which pushes him to be possibly a "mid-tier" fighter and Goku even admits to have underestimated Dabra.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Additionally, I'd like to add that there's a chance future Dabra might be stronger than Boo arc Dabra; usually people assume he never trains but it's possible that he does.

[DanielSSJ]

I just thought of something.

People have always kind of assumed that Dabura is about as strong as Perfect Cell instead of Super Perfect Cell and it was kinda implied that Goku and Vegeta could have beaten him as Super Saiyans.

But in the Super manga Trunks as a Super Saiyan was still weaker than Dabura and you'd think that Trunks would be even stronger than Goku and Vegeta for

1. He trained with the Supreme Kai
2. He trained with the Z Sword and mastered it whereas when Goku swung it around it was sluggish.
3. The huge difference there was in Trunks' and Goku's forms when they sparred.

Are we sure that Dabura isn't Super Perfect Cell level? It'd make more sense for a few things.

It wouldn't make sense for Dabra to be full-on Super Saiyan 2 tier if a rusty and weakened Gohan can sorta keep up with him as a regular Super Saiyan (because he was a regular Super Saiyan in the manga). As for Trunks, the battle between him and Bobbidi's forces took place a few years before he returned to the past, so there's plenty of time for him to get stronger. Not to mention that his Super Saiyan 2 form is stronger than normal, because he worked to make it as powerful as possible instead of striving for a new level like Goku did.

I personally think that Trunks was probably around Cell Games Gohan tier when he fought Dabra, and that he just got stronger later on. That leaves plenty of room for him to be weaker than Dabra at Super Saiyan 1, but a whole lot stronger at Super Saiyan 2.

[Bullza]

Well people have always been all over the place with Dabura. I don't think it helps that there's confusion over whether Gohan used Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2 against him.

I see a lot of people really low end Dabura so he's as strong as Perfect Cell at the low end.

However Goku's comment that he's as strong as Cell you'd think would mean at his strongest or latest and then he said he was stronger than he thought. Then for Trunks to arguably be even stronger than Buu arc Goku and Vegeta but still not be a match for Dabura as a Super Saiyan makes it seem as though Dabura should be closer or even above Super Perfect Cell.

And the comments from Goku and Vegeta can still make sense considering they have Super Saiyan 2.

Dabura might be stronger but isn't he possibly thousands of years old? You'd think even if he did train an extra 20 years of training wouldn't make him that much more powerful.

[dbgtFO]

Well people have always been all over the place with Dabura. I don't think it helps that there's confusion over whether Gohan used Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2 against him.

I see a lot of people really low end Dabura so he's as strong as Perfect Cell at the low end.

However Goku's comment that he's as strong as Cell you'd think would mean at his strongest or latest and then he said he was stronger than he thought. Then for Trunks to arguably be even stronger than Buu arc Goku and Vegeta but still not be a match for Dabura as a Super Saiyan makes it seem as though Dabura should be closer or even above Super Perfect Cell.

And the comments from Goku and Vegeta can still make sense considering they have Super Saiyan 2.

Dabura might be stronger but isn't he possibly thousands of years old? You'd think even if he did train an extra 20 years of training wouldn't make him that much more powerful.

Yup. All true and valid if anything Gohan is just stronger as a Super Saiyan, than normally credited for.
As long as he's weaker than his Cell Games self it all checks out. It is of course very much counter-intuitive.

Just going by the flow of the story though:
SS Gohan (kid) < Perfect Cell (FP) < P. Cell (SP) =< Dabra < SS Gohan (teen) < SS Vegeta < SS Goku < SS2 Gohan (kid) =< SS2 Vegeta < SS2 Goku.

[Bullza]

It wouldn't make sense for Dabra to be full-on Super Saiyan 2 tier if a rusty and weakened Gohan can sorta keep up with him as a regular Super Saiyan (because he was a regular Super Saiyan in the manga).

Well maybe he really was a Super Saiyan 2 and Toriyama made a mistake with the artwork and the anime corrected it. Dabura did say to Bobbidi that he was sure he could beat him so maybe he held back?

I personally think that Trunks was probably around Cell Games Gohan tier when he fought Dabra, and that he just got stronger later on.

I have Trunks being pretty much exactly as strong as Gohan after his Z Sword training where both had reached the point they could effortlessly swing and throw around the Z Sword.

Again Goku could swing it but not without effort which is why I'd say both were stronger than him and Vegeta.

So it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for me that Dabura could be Super Saiyan level when he should ideally be stronger than Super Saiyan Goku/Vegeta/Gohan and Trunks.

Cell was above that level. Dabura they said was as strong so again it'd make sense with him being above that level but still no match whatsoever for Super Saiyan 2.

[DanielSSJ]

Well maybe he really was a Super Saiyan 2 and Toriyama made a mistake with the artwork and the anime corrected it. Dabura did say to Bobbidi that he was sure he could beat him so maybe he held back?

Even if that is true and that Toriyama made a mistake, there's no way for us to know for sure. I'm going to go with what I saw in the manga, and I saw a Super Saiyan 1 Gohan.

I have Trunks being pretty much exactly as strong as Gohan after his Z Sword training where both had reached the point they could effortlessly swing and throw around the Z Sword.

Again Goku could swing it but not without effort which is why I'd say both were stronger than him and Vegeta.

So it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for me that Dabura could be Super Saiyan level when he should ideally be stronger than Super Saiyan Goku/Vegeta/Gohan and Trunks.

Cell was above that level. Dabura they said was as strong so again it'd make sense with him being above that level but still no match whatsoever for Super Saiyan 2.

See, I'm one of the people who thinks that swinging around the Z Sword for a day or two didn't do much for Gohan except improve his arm strength. The most I could see it doing for Gohan was putting back on the same level that he was at when he was a kid. It's just like how kid Trunks struggles under 150Gs, which isn't much more than Goku's 100G feat back when he first arrived on Namek. Does that mean that Trunks isn't much stronger than Goku was? I don't think so. He just hadn't adapted to the strain yet. Goku just picked up the sword once and swung it around for a few times whereas Gohan had been swinging it and getting used to its weight for at least a day. Gohan just got used to the weight whereas Goku hadn't.

[Bullza]

See, I'm one of the people who thinks that swinging around the Z Sword for a day or two didn't do much for Gohan except improve his arm strength.

There was that but now we see that Trunks did similar training and about two years later and as a Super Saiyan 2 he's as strong as Goku as a Super Saiyan 3 even though Goku

- Has had more years to train. Even more with the three years in the ROSAT.

- He trained on King Kai's planet. Vegeta had the Gravity Machine.

- Goku and Vegeta have each other as training partners.

- They both trained with Whis on Beerus' planet.

All things that Trunks did not have so you'd have to think that training with the Z Sword was probably a really effective way of boosting ones strenght. Trunks did say if it wasn't for that training he'd never have been able to improve as much as he had. Super Saiyan Trunks should be stronger than Buu saga Super Saiyan Goku but he's still weaker than Dabura.