Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[DanielSSJ]

Who was stronger at the Cell Games. Piccolo or Super Saiyan Vegeta or Trunks. Obviously in their Grade 2 forms they're stronger than Piccolo but what about their ordinary Super Saiyan forms?

People here were saying that Piccolo was even stronger than Semi Perfect Cell at the Cell Games. Before their second visit into the ROSAT Vegeta and Trunks were assumingly weaker than Semi Perfect Cell in their Super Saiyan forms.

For your first question, I don't think that Vegeta and Trunks were Grade 2 Super Saiyans during the Cell Games at all. Based on the art and Vegeta's commentary on Goku's and Gohan's relaxed state after coming out of the Room of Spirit and Time, it's likely that they've both abandoned the the Grade forms in favour of perfecting the original like Goku and Gohan had done. However, since they didn't train together, they weren't able to reach the same level of raw power that Goku and especially Gohan had possessed.

Power-wise, I'd say that Vegeta and Trunks now possess the same kind of strength that Grade 3 Trunks had when he fought Cell in their regular Super Saiyan forms, and that Piccolo is now at the level that Super Vegeta was at when he first fought Cell. Here are my numbers in units of millions:

Round 1
Vegeta: 17
-- Super Saiyan: 850
---- Grade 2: 1,300
Trunks: 16
-- Super Saiyan: 800
---- Grade 2: 1,200
---- Grade 3: 2,000

Semi-Perfect Cell: 700
-- Full Power: 850
Perfect Cell: 1,000
-- Powered Up: 1,500
-- Bulked Up: 2,500

Round 2
Vegeta: 40
-- Super Saiyan: 2,000
Trunks: 38
-- Super Saiyan: 1,900

Piccolo: 1,200

Funnily enough that kinda led me to another question, in the first Broly Movie, Bojack Unbound and the Hatchback OVA did Vegeta and Trunks use their Ascended Super Saiyan forms or not?

I don't think I've seen anyone say they weren't using their Ascended Super Saiyan forms at the Cell Games. I don't k ow what to think about that.

I'm not sure about Bojack or the OVA, but do I think that the character sheets do show that Trunks and Vegeta were Grade 2 Super Saiyans during the first Broly Movie, and I think they might've been drawn that way in the anime version of the Cell Games. However, in the manga it's clear that they're using the original form, based on how they lack the bulky muscles or the fiercer aura that Grade 2 and 3 are characterized by.

Besides, if Vegeta himself says that getting used to the form to minimize stress is more effective than powering up excessively, then I doubt he or Trunks would stick with the more stressful powered-up form.

[RandomGuy96]

Who was stronger at the Cell Games. Piccolo or Super Saiyan Vegeta or Trunks. Obviously in their Grade 2 forms they're stronger than Piccolo but what about their ordinary Super Saiyan forms?

People here were saying that Piccolo was even stronger than Semi Perfect Cell at the Cell Games. Before their second visit into the ROSAT Vegeta and Trunks were assumingly weaker than Semi Perfect Cell in their Super Saiyan forms.

Similar to Daniel above, I don't think they were using Grade II at the Cell Games. I also don't think there's a big difference between Grade II and MSS to begin with... maybe x1.1 or so. It has to be small enough to not really be worth the drop in stamina. I also don't think Trunks and Vegeta were weaker than Semi-Cell in their Super Saiyan forms:

Chapter: 377 (DBZ 183), P3.1-2
Context: as Vegeta is about to fight second form Cell
Trunks: “Father intends to ‘become’ that right off the bat…! [Become] that…!”
Note: Trunks’ surprise at Vegeta becoming Super Saiyan Grade II so soon may imply that Vegeta would be capable of fighting second form Cell even as a regular Super Saiyan.

[Nejishiki]

I thought it was a DB Heroes card or something that said Vegito was even stronger than a Super Saiyan 3 and then after that also mentioned how he could turn Super Saiyan aswell.

Contextually, that's from Daizenshuu 7's Character Dictionary citing Super Saiyan Vegetto as being stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks.

Vegetto
An individual formed through Vegeta and Goku merging together
History:In order to oppose Majin Buu, who had displayed overwhelming power by absorbing Gotenks and Piccolo, Goku tried to merge with Gohan using the Potara which he received from the Elder Kaioshin, but Gohan himself ended up being absorbed. As Goku tried in vain to think of something, Vegeta appeared. Goku pleaded that they merge, and so Vegetto was born. Achieving a power-up so great that he can make disparaging remarks about Majin Buu, he demonstrates his strength. He displays overwhelming strength, and even after being turned into a candy ball, his attack power remains the same. By attacking in his small candy ball state and piercing through Buu’s mouth, he drives Buu to the wall. Then when he entered Buu’s body, he split back into Goku and Vegeta, even though this was supposedly impossible. Afterwards, the two never became Vegetto again.
First Appearance: 503
Special Characteristics: Being a combination of two Saiyans, his appearance hasn’t changed all that much, and feels like a combination of Goku’s face and Vegeta’s hairstyle. He has both Vegeta’s coolheaded battle strategies and Goku’s pure fighting sense, and there can be no doubt that his strength measures even greater than that of a [Super] Saiyan 3. He is capable of transforming from his normal state into a Super Saiyan form. He has certain Special Characteristics: , including that his strength doesn’t change even if his shape does. He was born only once, and battled Majin Buu (Daizenshuu 2, p.113).
Techniques:ki blade, barrier, etc
Battles: He squares off against Majin Buu, who had absorbed Gohan and Piccolo, and demonstrates overwhelming strength.
Anime: In the original story, after Goku and Vegeta merge they transform into Super Vegetto straight away. However, in the anime version a fierce battle unfolds between Buu and normal Vegetto as well. Furthermore, after transforming into Super Vegetto, he uses Vegeta’s Big Bang Attack against Buu. Incidentally, merged characters such as Vegetto are performed by having both voice actors perform at the same time. This was the original creator’s idea.

[Bullza]

Base Vegito over Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks...is there anything else that can support that? I know Elder Kai comments that Vegito might not even have to transform against Buuhan so that would suggest it possibly. Anything else?

[ekrolo2]

Base Vegito over Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks...is there anything else that can support that? I know Elder Kai comments that Vegito might not even have to transform against Buuhan so that would suggest it possibly. Anything else?

I believe he said a Goku & Gohan Potara wouldn't have to transform to beat Boo, he doesn't make any comments about Vegetto's power since no one assumed he was gonna be on the cards.

[DanielSSJ]

Base Vegito over Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks...is there anything else that can support that? I know Elder Kai comments that Vegito might not even have to transform against Buuhan so that would suggest it possibly. Anything else?

Like ekrolo2 said, the Elder Kaioshin said that the fusion between Goku and Gohan could probably handle Boo without transforming, which is a much different beast than Vegetto, since Gohan had all of his existing and potential power rearranged so that he could access it in base form.

To answer the rest of your question, if you go by the manga, no there really isn't any evidence for Vegetto being stronger than SS3 Gotenks without transforming. Of course, it's a bit different in the anime, where they have Vegetto fight Gohan-Boo for a while before he transforms, but I've already made my thoughts on that clear.

[Bullza]

So going by the manga only where would you lot place Base Vegito?

[DanielSSJ]

So going by the manga only where would you lot place Base Vegito?

Super Vegetto is at the very least 2 or 3 times stronger than Gohan-Boo as far as I'm concerned, and working backwards from that, his base form usually ends up somewhere between Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3. On my current list (which I'm in the middle of revising, BTW), he's dead even with SS3 Goku.

[ekrolo2]

So going by the manga only where would you lot place Base Vegito?

Super Vegetto is at the very least 2 or 3 times stronger than Gohan-Boo as far as I'm concerned, and working backwards from that, his base form usually ends up somewhere between Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3. On my current list (which I'm in the middle of revising, BTW), he's dead even with SS3 Goku.

Pretty much, with a times fifty boost you have more than enough room for Super Vegetto to stomp Boohan, have it make sense with the power levels of Gotenks, Gohan, Super Boo, Bootenks and have Vegetto half-ass his power during the stomp.

[Bullza]

When it comes to the Spirit Bomb and when Goku was preparing it for Buu and needed to take as much energy as possible from people is he adding like a power level of say 4 for each human who gives up their energy?

For example if 1,000 people gave up their energy to the Spirit Bomb then would the bomb have the power level of round 4,000?

Or is it a completely different kind of energy and amount? Because you'd think just the energy from Gohan would have been enough to kill Buu and likewise the Spirit Bomb that showed up against Zamasu was really powerful to say there were only a couple hundred people.

[LightBing]

When it comes to the Spirit Bomb and when Goku was preparing it for Buu and needed to take as much energy as possible from people is he adding like a power level of say 4 for each human who gives up their energy?

For example if 1,000 people gave up their energy to the Spirit Bomb then would the bomb have the power level of round 4,000?

Or is it a completely different kind of energy and amount? Because you'd think just the energy from Gohan would have been enough to kill Buu and likewise the Spirit Bomb that showed up against Zamasu was really powerful to say there were only a couple hundred people.

I'm not sure if it's ever said anywhere but I assume the Genki Dama only uses the Genki component. There's two others: Yuki and Shoki. Because of this maybe Gohan contributed less than a third of his power, since it's not certain that the components are distributed evenly.

The regular folk likely contributed even less, since they got exhausted. While those who could use Ki could even fly. Maybe there's a system as not to take enough energy to risk their lives. I think Kaio was worried about this when Vegeta was trying to ask for even more energy.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

How strong can the characters get? Do they have a limit? If yes, when each of the Z Fighters reach that limit?

[Lord Beerus]

How strong can the characters get? Do they have a limit? If yes, when each of the Z Fighters reach that limit?

Character can become as strong as the plot needs them to be. That's literally the case. There's no real set standard for how much potential, if any, characters can have. At one instance, some characters can hit a glass ceiling, then all of a sudden, have a monster amount of dormant power that was never hinted to be there before and can become insanely strong in a short space of time. I mean... just look at the shit that Freeza pulled in ROF.

[DanielSSJ]

How strong can the characters get? Do they have a limit? If yes, when each of the Z Fighters reach that limit?

Overcoming your limitations is one of the big themes of the series, so I don't think there is some impassible wall that the characters can never overcome. Sure, there are times when they will reach their "peak", as in the rate that they gain strength slows to a crawl, but they can then experience monstrous growth again by discovering some new training method. Whatever ceilings that characters have are just glass ceilings which can be broken through.

[DBZAOTA482]

How strong can the characters get? Do they have a limit? If yes, when each of the Z Fighters reach that limit?

Technically, there is no limit thanks to ki. Some just have natural advantages over others.

[Noah]

How strong can the characters get? Do they have a limit? If yes, when each of the Z Fighters reach that limit?

DBS implied when Goku and Vegete were training in the RoSaT, that Saiyans might have reach their peak, when I saw the scene I thought "No shit" and yeah we all saw how Vegeta outperformed Black training at the same place in much less time. So basically as Lord Beerus said: plot demands

[miguelnuva1]

I think ssj blue is as strong as Goku and Vegeta need them or think them to be when they fight.

[Bullza]

How strong do you lot have Jaco at?

He's supposed to be no match for an adult Saiyan so hed be weaker than Raditz at 1,500. He definitely seems stronger than Goku at the beginning of Dragon Ball though.

Would he count as being stronger than end of Dragon Ball Goku or would he count as full grown?

He did beat up several of Frieza's goons and they were over 1,000 back in the Namek saga but these are supposed to be the leftovers.

[ekrolo2]

How strong do you lot have Jaco at?

He's supposed to be no match for an adult Saiyan so hed be weaker than Raditz at 1,500. He definitely seems stronger than Goku at the beginning of Dragon Ball though.

Would he count as being stronger than end of Dragon Ball Goku or would he count as full grown?

He did beat up several of Frieza's goons and they were over 1,000 back in the Namek saga but these are supposed to be the leftovers.

In the movie he's having a much easier time with the mooks than Roshi is who's visibly tired and gets knocked around a bit so I'd say he's stronger than Roshi's Max. We also know Raditz expected Goku to be stronger than he actually was when they first met so I think anything just shy of 1000 is fine for Jaco.

[DanielSSJ]

How strong do you lot have Jaco at?

He's supposed to be no match for an adult Saiyan so hed be weaker than Raditz at 1,500. He definitely seems stronger than Goku at the beginning of Dragon Ball though.

Would he count as being stronger than end of Dragon Ball Goku or would he count as full grown?

He did beat up several of Frieza's goons and they were over 1,000 back in the Namek saga but these are supposed to be the leftovers.

I personally have Jaco at around 400 or so, aka about as strong a Goku and Piccolo were when they fought Raditz. He's stronger than a typical Saiyan child but weaker than the typical Saiyan adult, so this seems like a nice middle ground. Though it should be noted that Jaco wouldn't exactly be able to get the same results as Goku or Piccolo, given that he probably can't really control Ki or anything.

As for Freeza's Army, I'd say that those guys that Kuririn and Gohan one-shotted after they arrived on Namek are representative of the vast majority of Freeza's army, and that most of his soldiers don't even reach a battle power of a thousand, and that's talking about them in their heyday.