MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/4/24!)

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/5/18!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:36 pm

Okay, I'm finally able to square away some time to address some of this. I know I don't have it in me to deliver a Kunzait-length post. And I know the fact of the matter is we're probably not going to agree when it comes to this. I didn't expect us to, nor is it necessary for us to. Variety is the spice of life. But I certainly feel it would be rude to leave such well-thought-out posts completely ignored. I'm hoping I can remember most of the salient points from when I read the posts last week. And Kunzait did give me an advantage by dividing his into topics, so hopefully those will help jog my memory.

I don't have much to add to the Pendulum Effect concepts, but I'm glad we seem to be in agreement as to its existence, and I agree that there are definitely some comments going exactly in a pendulum direction.

Getting into the area of tonal divide being directly proportional to forgiveness of poor decisions, I think that's taking it a bit too far. Like you, I have no hard, fast line here. It's simply a guideline. For example, if, in The Terminator, Kyle and Sarah stopped running from the T-800 to play a game of Skee-Ball... well, I feel that would break the continuity of the setting and make it difficult for me to take the resulting drama seriously. The next time Arnold caught up to them, and they were screaming their heads off, all I'd say is, "Well, maybe you wouldn't be in this situation if you hadn't done something monumentally stupid for no reason." And obviously I would judge so-called stupid acts on a case-by-case basis. There are some things I find unconscionably stupid that you clearly don't. And I already know there are things you can't forgive that I feel I can give a pass to. I certainly don't feel characters have to make perfect decisions every time. Poor decisions can make great drama. But they have to make sense in the narrative and to the character.

I do have to say I'm surprised you claimed that I take "great issue" with Goku's "He hasn't done anything yet!" line. Because I don't. Not only do I say towards that beginning that each car in the excuse train makes some level of sense, I say towards the end that I totally agree that killing Gero in cold blood for a crime he hasn't committed is not something I could easily get behind. I do find that line in keeping with my understanding of Goku. I think it's sweet, childlike, and more than a little humorous. Similarly, I find Kuririn's line about them coming together through common enemies to make sense too. I find it similar to the Muten Roshi's line to God about how his Dragon Balls brought all these heroes together and caused them to save the world. It encapsulates both how far they've come and how their accomplishments are pretty fortuitous and prone to happenstance. But like I also said, I don't feel those end up being compelling reasons to take the actions they did, especially in light of how proactive their future actions are. All those reasons seem quite disingenuous to me when they're essentially disregarded when the plot finds it convenient to do so. And in the case of the Goku line, while I sympathize with that reason, I don't feel it absolves him. And when Goku furiously punches #20 in the head in retaliation for him killing innocent people, it's hard for me to understand that reaction. All I can think is, "Well, you're angry now, but you could have chosen to do something to keep it from happening. And you didn't." Based on later parts of your post, I would assume you'd counter that by saying that Goku does not possess the capacity to consider the far-reaching implications. Perhaps. And I think that's going to be down to personal interpretation. But when God convinced Goku to run down a road for six months, it doesn't seem like he had to goad him with the prospect of a good fight. It certainly seemed to me like Goku was aware of the global situation that would be pertinent a year from then. But that's just my interpretation of that scene at Enma's rather than based on anything concrete, and I'm hard-pressed to debate our personal interpretations of scenes. And I do find that fascinating. I do feel a lot of what we both have to say are based on what's "between the cracks" so to speak, rather than on explicit examples. Not all, of course, but enough that two people can look at the same scenes or lines of dialogue and come away with different conclusions.

I was quite interested in your comments about the 23rd Budoukai, and that's mostly because I do feel that's a problem. I'd like to think I mention your specific reasons in those videos, but I admit I can't be bothered to check at the moment. I do, however, recall saying that the tournament format seems to fall flat in that arc in a way it did not in the previous tournaments. And I know we disagree on that because I believe I recall you saying that was one of your favorites, whereas I gave it a 4. I believe I did say back then that the combination of tournament and save the world only barely managed to function, that some of the decisions strained credulity. In fact, I think I reiterated one of them in this video. It works just well enough because the alternative is never forced to be tested. I believe Goku would keep fighting even if he lost the tournament. But as long as he's in the match, we want to see him win the match too, especially his long history with it. And as others say, Goku has earned the right to try this the way he wants to. And it certainly doesn't hurt that Goku's risks often manage to pay off for him. Aside from letting the others join, which Ma Junior puts the kibosh on at one point anyway, letting Ma get that one punch in is the only time Goku really hampers himself, and I can certainly forgive that. And on the occasions that Goku tells the others he has this worked out without them, I understand why they trust him. But I do feel it's telling that, until Super (which has been really lackluster in this regard), a tournament has never really gotten off the ground again as a source of serious drama. Twice they're used simply as jumping off points for the actual story. They're used as comedy in regards to how far beyond the characters have gotten in need of a tournament. And in the Cell Games, Cell essentially strips away most of the pretenses of a tournament as soon as things get serious with Goku. From then on, it handles like any other battle to save the planet, and if you came in after Cell blows up the ring, you'd have little reason to assume this was ever a tournament. Toriyama is smart enough to realize that he just couldn't make that juxtaposition work again, and I still contend it barely worked that one time he tried it.

Similarly with Vegeta, while I do find it troubling, it is at least acknowledged by Goku as a problem. That he knows he's being selfish. So I can certainly handle, even if I grumble a bit at it, certain selfish or reckless decisions. I don't feel there's a specific moral event horizon, but I do feel this Cell Arc stuff blows way past it, not just for morality, but for common sense and good storytelling.

In regards to point 3, there were definitely points towards the end of production of this video where I did consider whether or not I should include the line from the Muten Roshi about the match being more important to Goku than the fate of the world. There are still times I wonder whether I should have included that. But I also don't think the video is lacking from not having included that one example. Because I don't deny the case there. But I also don't include other heroic examples like Goku taking it upon himself to save Jingle Village, or Muten Roshi's speech later in the 23rd Budoukai that I mentioned earlier in the post where he refers to the characters as heroes brought together by the Dragon Balls. So while part of me wishes I had included it or others, if only to make it clearer that there's not an exclusive divide between pre-Saiyan and post-Saiyan Goku, I think I had more than enough examples both ways. But, again, I'm not arguing against that point. I just don't think Goku's focus should be shifted as extremely as it eventually does. That he cares more about the match than the world is fine. But like I said, I don't think him not caring about the latter at all is correct either. I think the only thing I regret is that I accidentally frame the shift a bit too cleanly to post-Saiyan Goku. I definitely think that helps push it in that direction, but if I had included that moment, it would have made it more clear that the shift wasn't entirely cut and dried. And I do think the video might come across that way a bit more than I intended.

In the end, I probably haven't addressed everything I initially wanted to when I was reading this post. But, let's face it. It's taken me two weeks just to craft this response. This is definitely not a back and forth I can really engage in. Like I said, I didn't think we'd see eye to eye on this, but it has been enlightening to read your rebuttals. I do like the point about Goku's ability to fight not being on the line in previous cases, and while it doesn't change my mind, it is another new way for me to look at it.

I will end with one observation, though. I do find it interesting that you never addressed my out-of-character assertions in the context of the group, though. And many dissenting comments I've seen have been the same way. I suppose that's partly my fault. It's hard to come up with a catchy title that's also brief. I considered "Are Goku and Friends Heroes?" but I just couldn't figure out a way to make it sound not clunky, so I just went with Goku. So I'm sure that helped consolidate that this is entirely about Goku, but there's quite a bit about the group as a whole. So I'm wondering if I accidentally shifted too much focus onto Goku, or if you actually agree that it is stupid and out of character for the other characters (sans Vegeta) to go along with this and that it contradicts their pro-active actions for the rest of the arc.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/5/18!)

Post by Kid Buu » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:28 pm

Toriyama just changes character motivations to fit the context of scene's drama. This saga is just the one that is most obvious about it.

Piccolo, at the Cell Games: You can't send Gohan into battle when he doesn't want to, never mind the fact that I did that in the Saiyan Saga.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/5/18!)

Post by DanielSSJ » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:19 pm

Kid Buu wrote:Toriyama just changes character motivations to fit the context of scene's drama. This saga is just the one that is most obvious about it.

Piccolo, at the Cell Games: You can't send Gohan into battle when he doesn't want to, never mind the fact that I did that in the Saiyan Saga.
To be fair, Piccolo did go through quite a bit of character development to reach that point. Also, Piccolo didn't intend for Gohan to single-handedly beat the Saiyans for them.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/5/18!)

Post by Regarder » Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:38 pm

Yeah. He kind of had no choice before, whereas from Piccolo's perspective, it looks like madness when Goku is clearly the strongest and should keep fighting, and now he has so much confidence that he's willing to give Cell a senzu. Imagine if Piccolo and crew were fighting Nappa, and then suddenly Piccolo says "Don't worry, Gohan's got this!", gets everyone to pull back, gives Nappa a senzu (as if he'd need it), and pushes Gohan to fight him one on one. Everyone would think he'd lost his marbles.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/5/18!)

Post by Kid Buu » Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:04 am

Goku wasn't the strongest, Gohan was. That was kind of the point in having him fight, actually.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/5/18!)

Post by Regarder » Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:10 am

Kid Buu wrote:Goku wasn't the strongest, Gohan was. That was kind of the point in having him fight, actually.
That's not the point. Only Goku had any real confidence in that. They all knew that Gohan had these bursts of incredible power, but that's not sufficient to say that he can control it and just plain be that strong... until the plot gets to the point where he can finally do that. Everyone else would have good reason to be skeptical when Goku wasn't unable to continue, and even more so when he gave the senzu to Cell. Goku was clearly the strongest, in that his strength was clear. No gigantic caveats. Gohan was ultimately the strongest once those caveats had been dealt with, but only then.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/5/18!)

Post by Commodore Krevin » Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:21 am

Gaffer Tape wrote:Is Goku a Hero? - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Cell Arc Part 3!

I'm probably going more against the grain of the typical Kanzenshuu user's opinion than I ever have before, but here we are. Trunks warns Goku and the others that the world will become Skynet. They decide... to basically let it happen and see what shakes loose. Does this make sense? What are the reasons fans and Toriyama defend this? Here we go!!!
Watched the video and left my comment but to expand upon, at least within the video in question, I felt more could have been done to establish what was consistent for Goku. As cited in the video Goku has made some rather questionable decisions even before we consider the 3-year timeskip. I suppose I would have liked further analyse on the heroic-examples you cited for kid Goku. Both of which, I would argue, are very personal/intimate level rather than the sort of abstract concept of untold hypothetical lives the androids will kill. At least to me, I think its also worth noting that Goku doesn't destroy the Red Ribbon Army because their evil persay through that does influence how he interacts with them. But to resurrect Bora, again a rather personal connection through his friendship with Upa, via the dragonballs which the Red Ribbon Army possess. Until that point Goku was apparently content to allow them to keep doing what they did to Jingle village as long as they stayed out of his quest for the four-star dragon ball.

Which isn't to say Goku isn't heroic or not a hero but he seems to have a consistent blind spot for anything beyond his immediate person. Which coupled with the fact that he does love fighting strong guys and pushing his limits does tend towards him making some less than pragmatic decisions as Kunzait_83 rather thoroughly noted.

Since you specifically asked for responses concerning the other Z-fighters. Vegeta, as mentioned in the video, has no connection to Earth or care for innocents at this time. There's simply no reason he wouldn't want to fight the androids. Similarly Piccolo, while reformed, has a far more of a connection with Gohan than he does the human race. Tien I would have liked the video to have gone more in-depth with him. As it was the video cited examples both for and against the sort decision he made in the Android arc. Krillin ,Gohan and Chiaotzu are, for various reasons, likely to go along with what the others/Goku/Tien decide. And that leaves Yamcha who has every reason to be tempted by the chance to test himself like the others and be confident that they now have the advantage thanks to Future Trunks warning.

It doesn't seem too out of character for them to prioritize stopping the androids in a way that plays to their strength and basic inclination rather than a pragmatic way which doesn't.

My thoughts.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/5/18!)

Post by Kunzait_83 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:14 am

DanielSSJ wrote:
Kid Buu wrote:Toriyama just changes character motivations to fit the context of scene's drama. This saga is just the one that is most obvious about it.

Piccolo, at the Cell Games: You can't send Gohan into battle when he doesn't want to, never mind the fact that I did that in the Saiyan Saga.
To be fair, Piccolo did go through quite a bit of character development to reach that point. Also, Piccolo didn't intend for Gohan to single-handedly beat the Saiyans for them.
Piccolo went through a TON of changes by that point, not least of which being re-merging with Kami. In the early Saiya-jin arc, he was still very much a direct enemy of Goku and the others and was still intent on picking up where he/Daimao had left off before Goku ventilated his father/old body's torso. Nevermind befriending Gohan, dying for him, fusing with Nail, etc. by the time he re-merges with Kami, he's effectively a whole different being ("Just a Namek who long ago forgot his name").

I know Toriyama plays things fast and loose, but what Kid Buu's doing here is glossing over TONS of obviously laid out context in the form of character and story progression that lead Piccolo to the point he where he was by the Cell Games a MARKED contrast from how he was in the early stages of the Saiya-jin arc. When Piccolo first took Gohan under his wing, he was basically still a villain for all intents and purposes: by the Cell Games he'd been thoroughly reformed for years and is clearly not in any way the same ruthless figure he was prior.

The obvious point being made here is to show the marked contrast between how far Piccolo has come versus Goku's increasing recklessness and inability to comprehend that even his own son's views on fighting might differ substantially from his own.

Read through Gaffer's response. Not sure that I have much I can really add to it (since it seems we're at an "agree to disagree" stalemate here), but I might post more on it later.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/5/18!)

Post by Kid Buu » Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:38 am

Regarder wrote:
Kid Buu wrote:Goku wasn't the strongest, Gohan was. That was kind of the point in having him fight, actually.
That's not the point. Only Goku had any real confidence in that. They all knew that Gohan had these bursts of incredible power, but that's not sufficient to say that he can control it and just plain be that strong... until the plot gets to the point where he can finally do that. Everyone else would have good reason to be skeptical when Goku wasn't unable to continue, and even more so when he gave the senzu to Cell. Goku was clearly the strongest, in that his strength was clear. No gigantic caveats. Gohan was ultimately the strongest once those caveats had been dealt with, but only then.
Even prior to going to Ssj2, Gohan was stronger than Goku. There's plenty of evidence to suggest this.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/5/18!)

Post by jeffbr92 » Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:44 pm

Hey Gaffer Tape, not related with your dissection series, but I see that you expressed your opinion about Super in general in some threads, so I was curious: do you think this series was worse than GT?
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/5/18!)

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:26 pm

Lance, I have to disagree with you about Yamcha basically being Fred from Scooby-Doo.

He's clearly Han Solo from the 90s Star Wars EU!

Just think about it, he's a former fringe outlaw-type-turned-good guy who helps save the day-turned-guy who sits in the background, but happens to know random trivia about basically everything-turned-stay-at-home housewife.

He even has a fuzzy hanger-on in Chewbacca!

I think I'm onto something here...
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/5/18!)

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:55 am

Watching your review of the Tournament of Power. In a lot of way, I feel like it's kind of pointless to really apply critical review to Dragon Ball Super. Not because I think it's perfect--far from it--but because it doesn't really feel complete in anyway. Every episode feels like it's just barely made its broadcast so the overall project doesn't quite feel like it reflects anyone's personal vision. I think there were a few aspects that certainly felt realized, like Zamasu, Black and the last two episodes, but otherwise it really feels unfair to say "Yeah, that red apple sure is red."

My biggest problem with the recruitment episodes is that the narrative structure was so linear. I always just assumed this was done so as to better plan the production schedule for the tournament itself so that the animation didn't collapse too terribly but twenty episodes of this nonsense really hurts the overall project. The recruitment scenes should've been used as flashbacks during the tournament to highlight character moments and character-focused episodes. This would've more precisely structured the action to be a part of the story, too.

The Yamcha jokes in general are played out. At least with the Muten Roushi stuff you get to have the staff be genuine perverts but the Yamcha stuff just...wasn't funny. It would've been far funnier if Yamcha had gotten a cool moment because it would've broken the rules established by continually portraying him as such a joke.

That cast size was definitely a problem. You gotta love capitalism and how it basically forced Nakamura and Nagamine to use damned near every character, even when we could've done without focusing on so many of them. Most of those universes without the big, big characters should've been knocked out immediately or in a quick montage. As much as I want to tear the beginning episodes a new one it was really #123-129 that were fuckin' horrible. My God, those episodes just felt so, so under-baked. If Nakamura had more time and staff I'm sure Vegeta's big moments would've actually felt satisfying, but as it were you could tell the episode directors were dying just trying to string together the most bare minimum amount of effort.

That fuckin' episode count. God, I wish they had planned things better. If the schedule hadn't been so horrendous they probably could've pulled off #130-131 much earlier and then given us original episodes to fill in until March. Ugh. Over fifty episodes for this arc was way, way too much. Even twenty-six is pushing it but that would've been much more preferable. The first year had done such a better job at just having shorter arcs (although that Beers arc was still twice as long as it should've been). Even as much as I love the Future Trunks arc that should've only been eight episodes. Damn, I wish the entire Universe Survival arc had only been twenty-six episodes.

I hated how we first learned of Jiren's past through Vermouth's exposition. The full details should've been saved for #130 and told from Jiren's perspective, if told at all. Jiren would've probably worked much better as being a blank slate that Gokuu and the others had to fight against so that the focus could be on their reaction to and develop in the face of Jiren's sort of 'force of nature' role in the narrative. Nevertheless, I thought Nakamura sold Jiren's personality well in #130 through his storyboarding and directing. Hanawa Eiji's performance was also top-notch. #130-131 really feel like the good ending to a much better, much less redundant one or two cour arc. If Nakamura and Nagamine had had more time to storyboard episodes themselves I think the arc's cohesion would've been in much better shape.

In terms of the time only passing one minute per episode, I really have no problem with that concept. I have no problem with spending a hundred half-hour episodes on a single day, they just have to be interesting. The problem here is that there was so little directing throughout the arc (thanks to the aforementioned schedule and some really weak episode directors) that those episodes were more often than not just really boring.

I tend to give the boat line a pass because it seems like #17 typically just wouldn't care about others. Remember how he was okay with disappearing at the beginning of the arc? That's the #17 that #18 remembers. Interacting with Gokuu and the others changed that.

I'm surprised you didn't really touched upon the Freeza thing. I had thought that Freeza was going to betray everyone in the end and take the win for himself but when that didn't happen I was pretty shocked. The rule had become "Freeza will stab everyone in the back and knock everyone else out so that he can keep the wish" but instead that didn't happen. He had to put survival over a status-grab for once. On Namek he couldn't let well enough alone, against Trunks he did the same thing and when revived by the Dragon Balls he was still too fuckin' impatient, but here he finally, finally learned his lesson a little (Toppo kicking his ass helped, I'm sure) and placed his faith in Gokuu to revive him, even if he didn't get the wish from the Super Dragon Balls. Finally, the rules were broken and it was so refreshing. Seeing what he doesn't next will be very interesting. If his plan doesn't involve directly attacking Gokuu immediately what would Toriyama possibly be able to think up here?

Speaking of Episode #131, the storyboard and direction was handled by first-time director Ishitani Megumi. Not only is she what I believe to be the first female episode director for Dragon Ball, she was a talent that fans have been following since her university days. I certainly hope she sticks around because she really knows how to handle setting mood and how to use digital post-processing (as evident in the scene where the universes are being restored). It'll be a shame to lose the next potential Matsumoto Rie or Kamatani Haruka when Dragon Ball has been so desperate for good episode directors.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/5/18!)

Post by BlazingFiddlesticks » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:16 pm

I was concerned from the first that it would just be an enemy-of-the-day generator to fill out most of year's worth of episodes, and that's exactly what we got. You could not keep hype going that long in the best of circumstances, let alone Dragon Ball Super's.
JulieYBM wrote:Watching your review of the Tournament of Power. In a lot of way, I feel like it's kind of pointless to really apply critical review to Dragon Ball Super. Not because I think it's perfect--far from it--but because it doesn't really feel complete in anyway. Every episode feels like it's just barely made its broadcast so the overall project doesn't quite feel like it reflects anyone's personal vision. I think there were a few aspects that certainly felt realized, like Zamasu, Black and the last two episodes, but otherwise it really feels unfair to say "Yeah, that red apple sure is red."
The, by Dragon Ball standards, somewhat brisk pace of the earlier arcs makes this a lot easier to hide, too. But in a battle royale tournament not originating from any one mind, and ever other episodes isn't going to be winner, it just spills over.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 3/5/18!)

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:09 pm

Yeah, the Champa and Zamasu arcs felt so much more organic because of their brisk pacing. I would have loved to see something more brisk for the Tournament of Power with greater auteur control.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 4/16/18!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:16 am

Vaudeville Robots and Bleeding Hearts - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Cell Arc Part 4!

The Dragon Team reunites after three years to show off their new fashions... and stop the Artificial Humans. Yamcha gets heart problems, but a senzu fixes him up. Goku gets heart problems, but a senzu does nothing. Look who's worthless now, Goku!

As always, thanks for watching and let me know what you think, although I doubt this will generate as much impassioned discourse as the last episode. =P
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MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection Series Discussion Thread! (Updated 3/4/24!)
Current Episode: A Hero's Clone - Dragon Ball Dissection: Goku's Side Story! Siu Xing Qiu is a Testament to Courage

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 4/16/18!)

Post by jcogginsa » Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:34 am

Honestly, I think Goku getting angry at the death 20 causes is perfectly in keeping with his actions in waiting. Goku never wanted to let people die. His plan was always to prevent that from happening. He just didn't take the most effective means of doing so. That's wrong of him, but it's not the same as not caring

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 4/16/18!)

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:42 am

Gaffer Tape wrote:Vaudeville Robots and Bleeding Hearts - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Cell Arc Part 4!

The Dragon Team reunites after three years to show off their new fashions... and stop the Artificial Humans. Yamcha gets heart problems, but a senzu fixes him up. Goku gets heart problems, but a senzu does nothing. Look who's worthless now, Goku!

As always, thanks for watching and let me know what you think, although I doubt this will generate as much impassioned discourse as the last episode. =P
Great vid, Gaffer Tape.

Will the Dragon Ball Fashion Extravaganza be a recurring thing? Because it should be.

Also, Goku attacking Gero for all the innocent people he killed in the city, when he could prevented this from happening in the first place, wouldn't be the worst example in Dragon Ball. Wait till you get to the Majin Boo arc...

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 4/16/18!)

Post by Zephyr » Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:29 pm

jcogginsa wrote:Honestly, I think Goku getting angry at the death 20 causes is perfectly in keeping with his actions in waiting. Goku never wanted to let people die. His plan was always to prevent that from happening. He just didn't take the most effective means of doing so. That's wrong of him, but it's not the same as not caring
This. Goku wanted to have his cake and eat it too. Which is reckless and arrogant, but not inconsistent.

Also: I don't think it's entirely fair to knock the writing for having Goku not prevent bloodshed before it happens, yet being upset by it when it happens. Of course it's morally dubious to have not done everything in his power to prevent it, but the different situations, with their different levels of closeness to and abstraction from the violence, resulting in different reactions is absolutely consistent with real world human psychological behavior.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 4/16/18!)

Post by BlazingFiddlesticks » Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:46 pm

I will gladly accept "Vaudeville Robots" as 19 and 20's nicknames. I could never place what exactly Toriyama was going for but that works! More clothing segments! :clap:

I never gave a thought to Bulma's bringing baby Trunks not only because Toriyama clearly wanted to tell us that he had happened ASAP, but because it isn't beyond Bulma to come to two different conclusions at the same time and not put the right idea together (e.g. "Well I have to wish the guys well, solidarity and all that" "BUT I can't leave the baby, that would be wrong of me, wouldn't it?").

For the story in which half of the fighters are ultimately shelved for the last time, Android/Cell is actually great with the crew shuffling. Yamcha is the sole casualty there. Goku, Piccolo, and Tien being the tallest of the bunch does give that first encounter a bit a moment's heft (the great fire effect in the TV version definitely helps) simply for having removed the child and potential comic relief for a gasp- kind of like the Piccolo fight, yeah, only the demon slug is on the other side of the page. Good eye with the character's tracking Goku's decline too, I agree with all of that, it is a great start to the actual fisticuffs and what these particular robots are about. The other thing about Super Saiyans not being on soon-to-be-Gero's radar, which I think you didn't mention only because of where you cut off, is that its an initial ice cooler of relief that their reasoning for letting the androids show up on cue wasn't misplaced- Tien and Krillin are initially convinced that Goku had the game won already. Not only were they stronger than Gero had accounted for for simple training, as per the plan, but Gero concluded the surveillance at what might have been a reasonable time if not for certain a golden miracle that was presently thrashing his wingman. It dislodges Super Saiyan's mantle of simply being the Freeza breaker into norm of the series, as you said, and reiterates that it is an elephant any new baddie is going to have to kill. And that Toriyama ultimately does it not through Gero- he goofed- but with something entirely intangible suddenly becomes a nicer touch.

...but why didn't Gero survey them after they got back from Namek? Surely he wasn't counting on the heart virus to take Goku's life?
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 4/16/18!)

Post by Kid Buu » Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:53 pm

19 and 20 were the only villains I liked in this saga. Their designs and mannerisms are much more creepier than 17 and 18, and Cell is just wasted potential.

Yamcha first eliminated again! Just like 21st Budokai, 22nd Budokai and Saiyan Saga. I think the only exceptions are Baba's tournament and 23rd Budokai.
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