General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:10 pm

So, we don't have an official canon, but if you go by Toriyama's stories (from writing original draft stories to creating the whole thing), then DB, JSAT, Jaco, DBMinus, BoG, FnF, and Super seem to make up what's currently canon, while things like the old movies/OVAs, GT, and video games are currently ignored. But which version of these events is canon is unclear at this point. The manga or the anime? DBZ or Kai? Movies or Super? I made a list with all the various versions of the "canon" stories, in order to help those who can't choose which version is canon for them:
  • Dragon Ball
    • Manga
      • Tankoubon
      • Kanzenban
      • Full Color
    • Anime Adaptation
      • Dragon Ball Z
      • Dragon Ball Kai
        • Dragon Ball Kai (Majin Boo arc)
        • Dragon Ball Z Kai: The Final Chapters
    • Dragon Ball SD
    • Various Video Game Adaptations
  • Jaco The Galactic Patrolman
  • Dragon Ball Minus
  • Dragon Ball: Trunks The Story
    • Manga
    • Anime Adaptation
  • Dragon Ball: Heya! Son Goku and Friends Return!!
    • Anime
    • Manga Adaptation
  • Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods
    • Theatrical Cut
    • Special Edition
    • Dragon Ball SD - Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods - Special Manga Version
    • Dragon Ball Super (Beerus Arc)
      • Anime
      • Manga Adaptation
  • Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection "F"
    • Script
    • Movie
    • Promotional Manga
    • Dragon Ball Super (Golden Freeza Arc)
  • Dragon Ball Super (Universe 6 arc)
    • Anime
    • Manga Adaptation
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

Post by Noah » Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:50 pm

My personal canon is:

- Bardock – The Father of Goku DB Minus is my ass
- Dragon Ball (manga)
- DB/Z (anime/excluding conflicting fillers)
Spoiler:
- The History Of Trunks (I prefer over the manga chapter because this story, animated was better presented for me)
- Bojack Unbound
- Wrath of the Dragon

All the rest I see as non canon. Just my POV after all.
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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

Post by Anime Kitten » Mon Jun 20, 2016 3:57 pm

My canon:
  • Dragon Ball
    Dragon Ball Z
    Battle of Gods
    Resurrection 'F'
    Dragon Ball Super
    End of DBZ
    Dragon Ball: Xenoverse main story (I don't count the side-story or DLC as canon)
Hope that's simple enough! When Super ends, I will establish canon with GT.

NOTE: Anything contradictory in the anime is overpowered by the manga.
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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

Post by sintzu » Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:04 pm

At this point it's too hard and confusing to have one canon so dividing everything up into levels is the best option.

Level 1 canon : The original manga and whatever info Toriyama gives in interviews that adds to it and doesn't contradict it. (for example, telling us why #16 looks the way he does)
Level 2 canon : DB,Z (minus the contradicting filler)& Z's 2 TV specials.
Level 3 canon : The Super anime, The Super manga, Z's last 2 movies, the 2008 OVA & Jaco's manga & DB-.
Level 4 canon : Filler arcs, the original 17 movies, both versions of the Hatchyack OVA, Episode of Bardock & GT.
Level 5 canon : guidebook info such as what's written in the daizenshuu volumes.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.
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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

Post by szopman » Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:58 am

My personal canon is:
DB manga/anime
DB Kai + some fillers from DBZ (10 days waiting for Cell, Garlic Saga, Other World Tournament Saga, 3 last epps of DBZ instead of only 2 of DBKai)
Some DBZ movies that could be placed in the series continuity: DBZ Movie 1,5,8,9,10, 13
DBZ Specials: Bardock (DB Minus sucks), Trunks, OAV Plan to Destroy Saiyans, Yo! Goku and his friends return, crossover with One Piece and Toriko. I don't count "Episode of Bardock" as canon.
DBZ Movies 14 and 15 > Super. Sorry, but movies were first and they are just better ;) Better animation, less "fillers" etc.
+ episodes of DBSuper that takes place between two story-arcs (Heroic Mr Satan, Vegeta becomes Whis' pupil, Goku begins his training too etc.)
DB Super Universe 6 Saga and Future Trunks Saga + DBS manga. I think that manga actually is better that episodes (I mean "Universe 6" saga)
DB GT + Goku Jr special

That's he way I watch the show ;)
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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

Post by ABED » Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:01 am

Personal canon doesn't make sense.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

Post by Zephyr » Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:40 am

What's everyone's preferred combination of this new batch of "revival" material?

I prefer what appears to be the closest to Toriyama's original thoughts/preferred versions of each story:
- Jump Special (manga)
- Battle of Gods (film)
- Jaco (manga)
- Revival of F (film)
- Champa arc (manga)

Really interesting that it so far alternates between manga and film. For the Future Trunks stuff I'm likely to prefer the manga as well, so I guess that pattern will be broken soon.
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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

Post by RandomGuy96 » Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:49 am

Zephyr wrote:What's everyone's preferred combination of this new batch of "revival" material?

I prefer what appears to be the closest to Toriyama's original thoughts/preferred versions of each story:
- Jump Special (manga)
- Battle of Gods (film)
- Jaco (manga)
- Revival of F (film)
- Champa arc (manga)

Really interesting that it so far alternates between manga and film. For the Future Trunks stuff I'm likely to prefer the manga as well, so I guess that pattern will be broken soon.
Ditto, I throw in the Super manga as well. Toriyama does review it and even occasionally redraw pages after all, so it's probably as close to "canon" as those events can get. There is, however, a few minor issues between the movies and the manga. Like Beerus's first meeting with the gang. There's also some questionable stuff like exactly how strong base Goku is, but those aren't deal breakers (it can be argued that the Super manga, the movies, and the original manga can all fit together in this regard).
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

Post by Anime Kitten » Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:45 am

ABED wrote:Personal canon doesn't make sense.
Actually it does. It's just opinion.
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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

Post by Hellspawn28 » Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:54 pm

You can say that personal canons are stupid because you can't create your own cannon in opposition to the creators of the franchise.
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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

Post by Zephyr » Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:06 pm

Yeah, but there's no "official canon" to hold one's own personal canon in opposition to.

Unless we're talking about some absurdly silly shit, like "in my head, the Buu arc isn't canon!"
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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

Post by Ozotto » Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:38 am

I believe canon can be applied to all official works.
Within that canon exist various continuities.
To the best of my knowledge, this is how I conceptualize it, so there is possibly some errors, and missing information.
These first three are probably the most reliable as it essentially has the original source material before modern new age retcons, plus the original anime adaptation untouched by new age retcon.

• Original Japanese Manga
Dragon Ball - Dragon Ball Z - Daizenshuu 2 - Daizenshuu 4

• Original Japanese Anime TV Series
Dragon Ball - Dragon Ball Z - Bardock: The Father of Goku - The History of Trunks
Daizenshuu TV & Animation Parts 1-3

• Original Japanese Theatrical Releases & GT
DB Movies - 13 DBZ Movies - Plan To Eradicate The Saiyans OVA - GT
Daizenshuu 6

Then we enter the New Age, as we have finished the original or classic age... and this is where I get dazed and confused...

• New Age Japanese Manga
DBM - DB - DBZ - DBS

• New Age Japanese Anime TV Series
DB - DBZKai - DBS

• New Age Japanese Theatrical Releases & Side Stories/ Specials
BoG - RoF - Plan To Eradicate The Super Saiyans (2010) - Episode of Bardock - Yo Son Goku & Friends Return

In my opinion, everything official is canon, by definition.
What continuity it's apart of, is where it gets confusing.
I don't believe because it can fit in another continuity doesn't mean it's apart of another continuity.
Of course there are other continuities for various dubs, video game series, etc.
They all fall under the Dragon Ball franchise umbrella so basically I just pick what I like, and I like most of it.

My personal favourite continuities are...

• Classic English Viz Manga
Dragon Ball - Dragon Ball Z

• Classic English Funimation Anime TV Series
Dragon Ball - Dragon Ball Z - Bardock: The Father of Goku - The History of Trunks

• Classic English Funimation Movie Releases & GT
DB Movies - 13 DBZ Movies - GT
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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

Post by ABED » Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:02 am

Anime Kitten wrote:
ABED wrote:Personal canon doesn't make sense.
Actually it does. It's just opinion.
No, because the whole point of canon is that some official body says, either explicitly or implicitly, "this happened in the story".
Yeah, but there's no "official canon" to hold one's own personal canon in opposition to.
Yes there is. When Toriyama writes the story, that's canon. You don't need him or his publisher to say "this is canon". It's understood.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

Post by PsionicWarrior » Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:23 am

I have to agree with ABED on this one. Canon is what is written by original author, not what we decide it is.
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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

Post by Anime Kitten » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:24 am

I'll remember to hold you guys by that. Everything Toriyama makes and says is canon. Okay with you? :P
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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

Post by ABED » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:31 am

Anime Kitten wrote:I'll remember to hold you guys by that. Everything Toriyama makes and says is canon. Okay with you? :P
And what's wrong with that with the obvious exceptions of inconsistencies, changes, and contradictions. A few things here and there don't throw out the entire idea of canon.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

Post by Anime Kitten » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:41 am

Just that there are plenty of things that should or could easily be canon that aren't. Obviously, I highly respect Toriyama, but sometimes I wish he acknowledged more, like GT.
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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

Post by ABED » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:50 am

I like GT and I"m more than fine with it not being canon.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

Post by Anime Kitten » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:54 am

ABED wrote:I like GT and I"m more than fine with it not being canon.
Glad to hear you like it. But once Super ends or closes in on ending, I'll establish canon with it and GT. In the event that it doesn't already.
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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

Post by ABED » Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:05 pm

Anime Kitten wrote:
ABED wrote:I like GT and I"m more than fine with it not being canon.
Glad to hear you like it. But once Super ends or closes in on ending, I'll establish canon with it and GT. In the event that it doesn't already.
But by the nature of canon, you can't establish it.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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