Raditz, Goku's biggest challenge?

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Re: Raditz, Goku's biggest challenge?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:19 pm

SparkyPantsMcGee wrote:
DBZAOTA482 wrote: But that doesn't count because his motivation at that point was to defeat/kill Raditz then settle the score with Goku, and Goku basically let Piccolo kill him. He would never be in that predicament if Raditz didn't decide to play dirty and take advantage of his naivety.
Sure he would of--this also applies to Saiga 's comment as well--Raditz had Piccolo and Goku highly out classed in strength. In Goku's case, Raditz also had him outclassed in brains. Raditz already saw Goku had gone soft, and the Sayians are definitely not above playing dirty. He saw his chance when Goku had his tail, and out smarted his opponent. It might have been low, but it worked. On the other hand, whose to say Raditz wasn't bluffing in the first place? Later on in the series Vegeta and Nappa point out that they train to protect themselves from such an obvious weakness. We don't really know if Raditz knew how to overcome this weakness, but he might have had something up his sleeve if Goku refused to let go. Maybe not, but he still managed to out smart Goku.


In Cells case, the circumstances are a bit different. Cell was actually outclassed by Gohan; even more so when Gohan punched 18 out of him. And after he lost 18, he could have gotten killed by all of the Saiyans(possibly Piccolo since he got to train in the Room of Spirit and TIme too). Goku's sacrifice was kind of a waste here. Unlike Raditz there were an infinite amount of solutions for Goku in the situation; any other planet except Kai's would have been fine. Hell he could have just gone to space and back and have been ok. With Raditz, at that point, there was really no other option than for him to let Piccolo kill him because that was the only attack that could stop Raditz; and holding him down was the only way to ensure he could dodge out of the way.
The Shunkan Ido technique can only teleport to areas where you can field out someone's life force, and space is literally a lifeless vacuum. Goku even said it's the only place he can go to. Not to mention he would die regardless if he took action or not thus meaning Cell succeeded (with his own prowess) in doing what the villains that proceeded him have attempted to do but failed...that is to kill Goku and to take it further, he lives on and gets to enjoy the feeling of success. :lol:
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DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
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I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: Raditz, Goku's biggest challenge?

Post by Bussani » Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:29 pm

If you consider that Goku needs a familiar ki to lock onto before he can teleport, and also that he couldn't even teleport to Namek without Kaio's help, then that really does limit his options. The only other place he might have been able to go would be Enma's, but that would probably be a bad idea since that place is rather important.
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Re: Raditz, Goku's biggest challenge?

Post by SparkyPantsMcGee » Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:22 pm

Fair point, I kind of forgot about the fact that he needed to lock on to familiar ki. Still though, I wouldn't say Cell was Goku's biggest challenge. Hell, it's almost like the shoe is on the other foot in this case. Ironically, I'd say Cell was in the same position Goku was in when he fought Raditz. In both cases they were pushed to their limits and got Desperate. Unlike Raditz you don't get the feeling that Goku is pushed to his very limit with Cell, hell he confidently stops and lets his son finish the job. That alone should give you an idea on how Goku saw this fight playing out.It wasn't until his son got cocky and let the fight drag on more than it had to that Goku had to step in and needlessly blow up. Yes, you can say Cell killed Goku, just like you could say Piccolo killed Raditz but their victories were only after they got beaten, humiliated and pushed to their very limit. If the Z fighters fought Cell the way Goku and Piccolo fought Raditz the fight would have been over before Cell knew what to do with himself.
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Re: Raditz, Goku's biggest challenge?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:54 pm

SparkyPantsMcGee wrote:Fair point, I kind of forgot about the fact that he needed to lock on to familiar ki. Still though, I wouldn't say Cell was Goku's biggest challenge. Hell, it's almost like the shoe is on the other foot in this case. Ironically, I'd say Cell was in the same position Goku was in when he fought Raditz. In both cases they were pushed to their limits and got Desperate. Unlike Raditz you don't get the feeling that Goku is pushed to his very limit with Cell, hell he confidently stops and lets his son finish the job. That alone should give you an idea on how Goku saw this fight playing out.It wasn't until his son got cocky and let the fight drag on more than it had to that Goku had to step in and needlessly blow up. Yes, you can say Cell killed Goku, just like you could say Piccolo killed Raditz but their victories were only after they got beaten, humiliated and pushed to their very limit. If the Z fighters fought Cell the way Goku and Piccolo fought Raditz the fight would have been over before Cell knew what to do with himself.
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...And to answer another comment.
Avenged wrote:I just wish Goku fought Cell to the death...He would have lost but I think that would have been a better reason for Gohan to transform rather than 16.
It wasn't just 16's death that pushed him. Cell was mentally torturing Gohan the entire fight, and the speech from a like-minded friend and his death ultimately ended the suffering thus allowing Gohan to accept his destiny.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: Raditz, Goku's biggest challenge?

Post by Sin » Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:25 pm

Hmm, I feel like I agree but then again I feel like I've not looked at the other villains fairly enough. I agree to the extent that Raditz really caught Goku off guard and there was a huge desperation, Goku chose to sacrifice himself even after teaming up with who, up until this point, was the only fighter that could go head to head with Goku in the series. I really think that at this point, without knowing any of kind of transformation and with no back-up plan, it certainly was a giant challenge for Goku.

Interesting idea though, and ironically Raditz is always my biggest challenge, whenever I play the Dragon Ball Z games I tend to lose the Raditz battle first time over (Budokai 1 I was demolished), all because, like Goku, I hadn't trained yet for that moment and I had no idea how things were going to play out.

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Re: Raditz, Goku's biggest challenge?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:53 pm

I'd say Kid Buu was Goku's biggest challenge. He couldn't beat the guy with SSJ3 and needed Vegeta, Mr Satan, and Good Buu's help to beat him and they only stalled while Goku charged a Genki Dama which almost didn't work. Seriously Kid Buu was persistent as hell.
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Re: Raditz, Goku's biggest challenge?

Post by Sin » Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:03 pm

TheMightyOzaru wrote:I'd say Kid Buu was Goku's biggest challenge. He couldn't beat the guy with SSJ3 and needed Vegeta, Mr Satan, and Good Buu's help to beat him and they only stalled while Goku charged a Genki Dama which almost didn't work. Seriously Kid Buu was persistent as hell.
I don't know, I just didn't feel any kind of urgency on Goku's behalf then, as soon as his strength was restored whilst charging the Genki Dama the fight was over, even Goku seemed confident that he'd win.

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Re: Raditz, Goku's biggest challenge?

Post by Master Turbo » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:31 am

90sDBZ wrote:Well he seemed more scared against Raditz than against some of the later enemies. But I'd have to say Vegeta was a bigger challenge. He had every bone in his body crushed and was totally helpless without Gohan, Krillin and Yajirobe. Also Freeza was a very tough fight for him too, going on for a long time and making him question if he could actually win.

To be fair that was more of Goku being and fighting like an idiot more than anything. he had a couple of chances to kill Vegeta, he just pissed them away on poor judgement. Its not the same again Raditz where he had absolutely nothing that could affect Raditz, even with Gohan's added help Raditz it still wasn't enough to put Raditz down for the count and to be honest Raditz could have still killed everyone had he killed Goku first after back handing Gohan unconscious, then him second, and then finally Piccolo. Poor judgement killed Raditz more than anything. The closest thing to Raditz I could think of for Goku would be Tao Pai Pai and Piccolo Daimao. The only reason Goku survived those encounters is because those two were too careless to bother destroying Goku's body after beating him into submission, that's it.

In fact, I would dare say Raditz is the catalyst for changing Goku's entire mindset about training to better himself for future threats, if it wasn't for him Goku would still be taking it easy fighting Piccolo every now and then to pass the time since he's unaware of larger threats lurking out there beyond the boundaries of Earth itself. The arrival of Raditz was perfect, if you re-watch both versions of Raditz first appearance to the end of his appearance in the Japanese and ocean dub version it just really nails the dynamic of the whole thing. Raditz set the bar to damn high for badass introductions. he changed everything on a physical, emotional, spiritual, and mental level. No antagonist has every done that before and no one has been able to replicate it either in my honest opinion.

Just think about it, Raditzz showed up like a boss, humbled Piccolo as he pissed himself, owned Kuririn in a single tail swing, mind screwed Goku about his origion and relation to him, terrified and humiliated Goku in one blow, kidnapped his son just cause, made Goku team up against his mortal arch-enemy, demolished both of them at the same time took Gohan's best and backhanded into unconsciousness afterwards and forced Goku to sacrifice himself and still killed everyone's joy by mentioning their victory was empty. Radutz brought the pain and despair and it still continued up until 11 months later for more terror and disaster. You gotta to give it up for Raditz, despite being a minor character he definitely left his mark.

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Re: Raditz, Goku's biggest challenge?

Post by SparkyPantsMcGee » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:36 am

Sin wrote:
TheMightyOzaru wrote:I'd say Kid Buu was Goku's biggest challenge. He couldn't beat the guy with SSJ3 and needed Vegeta, Mr Satan, and Good Buu's help to beat him and they only stalled while Goku charged a Genki Dama which almost didn't work. Seriously Kid Buu was persistent as hell.
I don't know, I just didn't feel any kind of urgency on Goku's behalf then, as soon as his strength was restored whilst charging the Genki Dama the fight was over, even Goku seemed confident that he'd win.
Not to mention they rock, paper scissors to see who would fight Buu first.
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Re: Raditz, Goku's biggest challenge?

Post by Saiga » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:48 am

@Turbo

It's the other way around. Goku was doing everything he could against Vegeta and it wasn't enough. But against Raditz, he had him by the tail and could have ended it there, but let him go.
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Re: Raditz, Goku's biggest challenge?

Post by SparkyPantsMcGee » Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:57 am

Saiga wrote:@Turbo

It's the other way around. Goku was doing everything he could against Vegeta and it wasn't enough. But against Raditz, he had him by the tail and could have ended it there, but let him go.
But it was enough, Goku managed to defeat Vegeta and come out alive. Yes Goku's fight with Vegeta was a big one and it left him pretty messed up, but Goku managed to give back just as much as he was taking. With Raditz, not so much. Throughout the whole fight Piccolo and Goku barely managed to leave a scratch. Yes, Goku let go of Raditz's tail, and it was because he was outsmarted. As I mentioned above, Raditz played on Goku's softness and gained the upper hand.
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Re: Raditz, Goku's biggest challenge?

Post by DragonBalllKaiHD » Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:03 am

SparkyPantsMcGee wrote:
Saiga wrote:@Turbo

It's the other way around. Goku was doing everything he could against Vegeta and it wasn't enough. But against Raditz, he had him by the tail and could have ended it there, but let him go.
But it was enough, Goku managed to defeat Vegeta and come out alive. Yes Goku's fight with Vegeta was a big one and it left him pretty messed up, but Goku managed to give back just as much as he was taking. With Raditz, not so much. Throughout the whole fight Piccolo and Goku barely managed to leave a scratch. Yes, Goku let go of Raditz's tail, and it was because he was outsmarted. As I mentioned above, Raditz played on Goku's softness and gained the upper hand.
Agreed. Vegeta was the only one to ever crush Goku's body to the point he became paralyzed. It was really gruesome battle. It was Goku's greatest challenge, where he almost lost and allowing Vegeta to blow up Earth if it wasn't for Gohan to interfere the battle. Raditz is nothing. It was just moderately tough battle. Goku could have won the battle unscathed.
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Re: Raditz, Goku's biggest challenge?

Post by Saiga » Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:16 am

SparkyPantsMcGee wrote:
Saiga wrote:@Turbo

It's the other way around. Goku was doing everything he could against Vegeta and it wasn't enough. But against Raditz, he had him by the tail and could have ended it there, but let him go.
But it was enough, Goku managed to defeat Vegeta and come out alive. Yes Goku's fight with Vegeta was a big one and it left him pretty messed up, but Goku managed to give back just as much as he was taking. With Raditz, not so much. Throughout the whole fight Piccolo and Goku barely managed to leave a scratch. Yes, Goku let go of Raditz's tail, and it was because he was outsmarted. As I mentioned above, Raditz played on Goku's softness and gained the upper hand.
Raditz didn't outsmart Goku because he had no idea Goku was that naive. He was desperate, begging and extremely lucky to be let go.
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Re: Raditz, Goku's biggest challenge?

Post by Ringworm128 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:18 pm

People seem to be forgetting Freeza, Goku had to use a 20X Kaioken just to get the equivalent of one good punch in and not even a huge Genki Dama was enough. Also keep in mind Freeza was only at 50%, if it wasn't for Goku turning into a Super Saiyan they would have lost. And even after Goku went SSJ Freeza was still able to put up a fight.

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Re: Raditz, Goku's biggest challenge?

Post by SparkyPantsMcGee » Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:24 pm

DragonBalllKaiHD wrote: Agreed. Vegeta was the only one to ever crush Goku's body to the point he became paralyzed. It was really gruesome battle. It was Goku's greatest challenge, where he almost lost and allowing Vegeta to blow up Earth if it wasn't for Gohan to interfere the battle. Raditz is nothing. It was just moderately tough battle. Goku could have won the battle unscathed.
I think you misread my post...
Saiga wrote:
Raditz didn't outsmart Goku because he had no idea Goku was that naive. He was desperate, begging and extremely lucky to be let go.
I'm going to disagree with you on that one. Raditz has seen Goku has gone soft and I think he was using that weakness to his advantage.
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Re: Raditz, Goku's biggest challenge?

Post by Insertclevername » Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:28 pm

To further emphasis, the only reason he'd try that on Gokuu was because he knew was soft and was ripe to be exploited. I honestly doubt he'd even try that on a typical hard ass Saiyan.
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Re: Raditz, Goku's biggest challenge?

Post by Saiga » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:13 pm

He had known Goku for all of ten minutes. He was doing the only thing he could in that situation and he got lucky.
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Re: Raditz, Goku's biggest challenge?

Post by Insertclevername » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:17 pm

First impressions mean a lot. If he's attached to his family and friends there is a good chance he shows remorse. It's not totally fool proof but Raditz most likely took a gamble off an assumption.
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Re: Raditz, Goku's biggest challenge?

Post by Saiga » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:23 pm

Insertclevername wrote:First impressions mean a lot. If he's attached to his family and friends there is a good chance he shows remorse. It's not totally fool proof but Raditz most likely took a gamble off an assumption.
Yeah, but that's all it was. A gamble. He also told Goku to kill 100 Earthlings for an apology, showing that he really doesn't understand.
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Re: Raditz, Goku's biggest challenge?

Post by Insertclevername » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:34 pm

Eh, I don't know. I still get that conniving vibe from him. I'll agree on the fact it was a gamble, but one inspired by some prior knowledge gained from first impressions.
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