New Animation VS Old Animation

[SaintEvolution]

So, I've made some observation on Super Saiya-Jin Goku versus Beerus in Dragon Ball Super #5, where Ken Ôtsuka presumably key animated the scene. He probably did the cut of Goku's Kamehame-Ha. I noticed that his art style is similar to chief animation supervisor Ide Takeo that kinda calls back from his olden days of Dragon Ball Z. I have to wonder if he influenced Ôtsuka. This is probably good news for you guys who prefer the old style from back then, even if it's for a brief time.

By the way, they still occasionally draw a line under nose. There's some in Episode #5.

I had noticed it too.

[shinmaru]

Animation is more than just drawing over other people's work, it's about movement and the timing of that movement, something you need an actual skill to understand.

I mean correct the bad animation without drawing new frames of course. Just use the original frames and draw over it like what he is doing with all the other pictures, at least it will look better. I know it's a hard and time-consuming skill to learn I tried to animate 3 frames myself a couple of years ago.

[Noah]

I saw that in a Facebook page:

[PolatGuy92]

I saw that in a Facebook page:

I assume it's fan made? Nice art thou

[IgnorantFuniFan]

I decided to redo the same shot of Goku about to punch Beerus:

I kind of restructured Goku's form to look more dynamic. I took a couple aspects from some of Toriyama's old art. Took about 2 hours so it would obviously not be very efficient to take the time and probably wouldn't look good in motion.

[Cipher]

I saw that in a Facebook page:
(snip)

The original looks like an in-between in a fluid bit of animation. The fan-update looks like a nice drawing that would never actually move (especially on a TV series budget).

I'll take the former.

Then again, I'll always take fluid animation over remaining strictly on-model (the first half of episode 5 boasts neither, so I'm not defending it, but I'm getting sick of misplaced priorities in critiques).

[Noah]

For people who says that fans can't do a better animation than TOEI studio

[Retan]

For people who says that fans can't do a better animation than TOEI studio

Holy smokes that's awesome!!

[AM Reflection]

For people who says that fans can't do a better animation than TOEI studio

Awesome. It'll only take fans about 4.5 years to complete the rest of the episode. Can't wait...

[LonelyShadow]

For people who says that fans can't do a better animation than TOEI studio

That amazing, the effect of Beerus' clothes looked pretty good.
Can't wait for him for to complete the other 20 minutes left. I'll hold my breath.

[Ajay]

For people who says that fans can't do a better animation than TOEI studio

Ramble incoming. Leftover frustration from last week's hate spam coming out.

Very nice work for a fan, but let's not jump the gun. It's four seconds long and, honestly, it's not very fluid, is it? Looking at his channel, it seems it took him at least 4 days to do. That's the key issue with #5's production. Give #5's animators the same amount of time to do four seconds of animation and you'd end up with something absolutely beautiful. Let's not play the "fans can do better than professionals" card here. That's nothing but pure ignorance and outright disrespect towards the animators involved. The issue was never about talent for #5. We had some serious names on that episode! They cited the issue stemming from a total lack of time due to a "production breakdown". That's all there is to it.

Actually, while we're at it, let me just demonstrate why pausing and picking at in-betweens is absolutely pointless. I wanted to talk about this last week, but the blind hatred was too strong for me to consider it worth it. You like his work? Pause his animation just as you did with #5 and you'll see just as many awkward looking frames as what you saw during the equivalent part of #5. Why? Because inbetweens aren't supposed to look like masterpieces. They're there to create the illusion of movement. Achieving that involves a lot of distorting proportions and such. I won't deny that his work is obviously more detailed, but again, that's a time thing.

Moreover, what's with the focus on the SSJ3 fight? The main issue with #5 was everything up to SSJ3. The keys looked awful, the framing was uninspired, and the animation was hardly fluid for a good chunk of it. Pick at that. Reanimate that. Why focus on the best parts of the episode?

But look, please don't misunderstand me, this fan piece is fantastic work considering he's (presumably) an amateur, but don't oversell it just because you're unhappy with #5's messy production. That's not very fair on anyone. Compliment his work from an informed perspective.

[JulieYBM]

To say nothing of the fact that a Toei Animation animator didn't even do the original shot.

[ParkerAL]

This is straying from the topic a bit, but I think I actually prefer the way this little comedic fan animation handles a Kamehameha blast more than the ones I've seen in Dragon Ball Super. Sure, it's played up for laughs and overtly cartoon-ish, but at least it actually feels more forceful than the ones Goku has firing off lately in the show.

[Big Momma]

For people who says that fans can't do a better animation than TOEI studio

Ramble incoming. Leftover frustration from last week's hate spam coming out.

Very nice work for a fan, but let's not jump the gun. It's four seconds long and, honestly, it's not very fluid, is it? Looking at his channel, it seems it took him at least 4 days to do. That's the key issue with #5's production. Give #5's animators the same amount of time to do four seconds of animation and you'd end up with something absolutely beautiful. Let's not play the "fans can do better than professionals" card here. That's nothing but pure ignorance and outright disrespect towards the animators involved. The issue was never about talent for #5. We had some serious names on that episode! They cited the issue stemming from a total lack of time due to a "production breakdown". That's all there is to it.

Actually, while we're at it, let me just demonstrate why pausing and picking at in-betweens is absolutely pointless. I wanted to talk about this last week, but the blind hatred was too strong for me to consider it worth it. You like his work? Pause his animation just as you did with #5 and you'll see just as many awkward looking frames as what you saw during the equivalent part of #5. Why? Because inbetweens aren't supposed to look like masterpieces. They're there to create the illusion of movement. Achieving that involves a lot of distorting proportions and such. I won't deny that his work is obviously more detailed, but again, that's a time thing.

Moreover, what's with the focus on the SSJ3 fight? The main issue with #5 was everything up to SSJ3. The keys looked awful, the framing was uninspired, and the animation was hardly fluid for a good chunk of it. Pick at that. Reanimate that. Why focus on the best parts of the episode?

But look, please don't misunderstand me, this fan piece is fantastic work considering he's (presumably) an amateur, but don't oversell it just because you're unhappy with #5's messy production. That's not very fair on anyone. Compliment his work from an informed perspective.

This is precisely how I feel. Of course the first half didn't look good, but it's not due to anything like laziness or lack of talent.

[Caulifor]

It's not the first time I see this kind of "rant" about these fanarts, and honestly, I think you guys are looking at it the wrong way. Well, at least I look at them differently.

It's not that the fan who drew these "fixed" images is saying he is a better artist or animator than the ones working at Toei. He is just displaying what he thinks the episode, or the scene in question, should have looked like. Now, what would it take to make that happen is another story entirely. A lot of people understand that the episode looking bad is not the animators' fault (or at least not entirely their fault), but rather a consequence of several problems, including lack of time and planning.

So, in my opinion, these images are not showing what the episode would look had the animators been good, but what it would look like had Toei actually cared more about the final product and gave it enough thought and time to be made.

EDIT: oh, and in another subject, and I see many fans defending that you shouldn't take screenshots of in-betweens as an indicator of the quality of the art/animation. But seriously, I've been watching some old DB and DBZ episodes recently and I haven't catched any noticeable bad in-between. In the case of Episode 5 of Super, nearly everything bad was noticeable. That's the difference.

[DragonBalllKaiHD]

The whole point of drawing in-betweens is to create motion from a key frame to a key frame, hence the term "in-between". They are there to help get a smooth transition, otherwise we will be in for an extremely rough ride. Evidently, we don't judge the animation quality based on in-between frames, as they are just for connecting between the key frames. What we should be judging is how key animators draw key frames and on-models.

[Cipher]

What we should be judge is how key animators draw key frames and on-models.

Also the fluidity and impact of the animation itself.

[JulieYBM]

The whole point of drawing in-betweens is to create motion from a key frame to a key frame, hence the term "in-between". They are there to help get a smooth transition, otherwise we will be in for an extremely rough ride. Evidently, we don't judge the animation quality based on in-between frames, as they are just for connecting between the key frames. What we should be judging is how key animators draw key frames and on-models.

This is why folks are silly to condemn off-model drawings. Off-model isn't bad, bad is bad.

The tweens in Dragon Ball Super Episode #5 were bad because they're drawn based on some bad key animation, not to mention a very rushed schedule.

[DragonBalllKaiHD]

The whole point of drawing in-betweens is to create motion from a key frame to a key frame, hence the term "in-between". They are there to help get a smooth transition, otherwise we will be in for an extremely rough ride. Evidently, we don't judge the animation quality based on in-between frames, as they are just for connecting between the key frames. What we should be judging is how key animators draw key frames and on-models.

This is why folks are silly to condemn off-model drawings. Off-model isn't bad, bad is bad.

The tweens in Dragon Ball Super Episode #5 were bad because they're drawn based on some bad key animation, not to mention a very rushed schedule.

I don't condemn off-models (I actually enjoy seeing Toshiyuki Kan'no's work in Dragon Ball Z). But it would be nice if they draw on-models every a few episode or so. The detailed animation is always nice to look at, especially in motion, like the Seigasha episodes. Naruto Shippuden has some pretty good off-models animation, but they are good because they had better planning and schedules, which Super obviously doesn't have. Yamamuro's character designs don't help either. Speaking of Yamamuro, I wonder what he is up to now. His presence isn't felt in the new series. I wonder if promoting Ide as the chief animation supervisor was only because Yamamuro doesn't want to do too much anymore.

By the way, I wasn't implying that Super #5 was bad because of in-betweens. They are just bad. The only saving grace was a couple of very good key animators' drawings.

[DBZMerciter2005]

I don't condemn off-models (I actually enjoy seeing Toshiyuki Kan'no's work in Dragon Ball Z). But it would be nice if they draw on-models every a few episode or so. The detailed animation is always nice to look at, especially in motion, like the Seigasha episodes. Naruto Shippuden has some pretty good off-models animation, but they are good because they had better planning and schedules, which Super obviously doesn't have. Yamamuro's character designs don't help either. Speaking of Yamamuro, I wonder what he is up to now. His presence isn't felt in the new series. I wonder if promoting Ide as the chief animation supervisor was only because Yamamuro doesn't want to do too much anymore.

I've seen Yamamuro's name thrown around a lot with a negative tone. Why are his character designs so disliked? I think his stuff looks just fine. It's not like his stuff was as bad as Uchiyama's. (Note: I'm looking at the Kanzenshuu animation guide so feel free to correct me where I'm wrong.)