Unpopular DB opinions

[ekrolo2]

Hypocrisy doesn't break a villain. Some of the best one's of all time are total, blatant hypocrites like basically everyone of the mobsters in Godfather and Magneto.

I think it completely breaks the villain if the characters don't acknowledge it in some way (be it other characters calling him out or the villain himself). It's fine if he knows he's a hypocrite and doesn't care, or the good guys know he's a hypocrite and they don't care about reasoning with him. It's different if the story is trying to portray the character's motivations as believable and trying to say the villain may have a leg to stand on morally when they don't even bother to acknowledge that he's being a hypocrite.

Zamasu and Baby are both hypocrites. But Zamasu is humiliated for being a hypocrite in the sense that nobody takes him seriously. Nobody ever calls Baby out on using a Saiyan body or ruling over the universe despite him using what the Saiyans did as justification.

I can take or leave the acknowledging the hypocrisy, my problem with it is if a character gets so incomprehensible that you have no idea what he's even on about anymore. Zamasu is a really good example to where every line of dialogue of his makes less and less sense and he just becomes a rambling psycho by the end with no validity at all.

And I really dislike it when stories do that to a bad guy who, even taking his hypocrisy into account, does have some valid point which don't matter when they're a rambling psycho. Ultron dies with a lot of dignity inspite of having lots of holes in his logic.

[Doctor.]

I can take or leave the acknowledging the hypocrisy, my problem with it is if a character gets so incomprehensible that you have no idea what he's even on about anymore. Zamasu is a really good example to where every line of dialogue of his makes less and less sense and he just becomes a rambling psycho by the end with no validity at all.

And I really dislike it when stories do that to a bad guy who, even taking his hypocrisy into account, does have some valid point which don't matter when they're a rambling psycho. Ultron dies with a lot of dignity inspite of having lots of holes in his logic.

I think it works for Zamasu because, even though he brings up some valid points, nobody ever took him seriously since he was just being a fucking retarded extremist from the get-go, no subtlety or middle-ground to his plan at all, he just used the valid points about how terrible the universe is to disguise his own ego and narcissism and make himself look like the good guy. So, his transition to a literally insane psycopath (and not just a villain being super angry like Freeza and Cell or a mindless monster like Boo and Broly) was probably the intent from the start; they never really tried to portray him as a guy who may be right, more like a guy who brings up valid points but is going about them in a moronic way.

Baby does the exact same thing. Except the story doesn't acknowledge it and tries to pretend he's justified.

[ekrolo2]

I can take or leave the acknowledging the hypocrisy, my problem with it is if a character gets so incomprehensible that you have no idea what he's even on about anymore. Zamasu is a really good example to where every line of dialogue of his makes less and less sense and he just becomes a rambling psycho by the end with no validity at all.

And I really dislike it when stories do that to a bad guy who, even taking his hypocrisy into account, does have some valid point which don't matter when they're a rambling psycho. Ultron dies with a lot of dignity inspite of having lots of holes in his logic.

I think it works for Zamasu because, even though he brings up some valid points, nobody ever took him seriously since he was just being a fucking retarded extremist from the get-go, no subtlety or middle-ground to his plan at all, he just used the valid points about how terrible the universe is to disguise his own ego and narcissism and make himself look like the good guy. So, his transition to a literally insane psycopath (and not just a villain being super angry like Freeza and Cell or a mindless monster like Boo and Broly) was probably the intent from the start; they never really tried to portray him as a guy who may be right, more like a guy who brings up valid points but is going about them in a moronic way.

Baby does the exact same thing. Except the story doesn't acknowledge it and tries to pretend he's justified.

And I dislike this entire premise because Zamasu is literally the only guy who's ever stopped and said "The universe we live in is kind of a piece of shit" and the story, instead of using that for good commentary on the fact only the selfish, amoral or totally undeserving have any real power, he's just a cunt who turns into a rambling psycho. Battle of Gods the movies biggest strength was that it was self aware of DBs own BS to comment on it and go against it and the Trunks arc can do this but goes the generic "Zamasu's just fucking Aizen!" route.

[ABED]

Baby does the exact same thing. Except the story doesn't acknowledge it and tries to pretend he's justified.

The story doesn't try to pretend he's justified, but Baby feels he's justified. That's ultimately what matters.

[Doctor.]

And I dislike this entire premise because Zamasu is literally the only guy who's ever stopped and said "The universe we live in is kind of a piece of shit" and the story, instead of using that for good commentary on the fact only the selfish, amoral or totally undeserving have any real power, he's just a cunt who turns into a rambling psycho. Battle of Gods the movies biggest strength was that it was self aware of DBs own BS to comment on it and go against it and the Trunks arc can do this but goes the generic "Zamasu's just fucking Aizen!" route.

I don't think it goes the Aizen route because Aizen in Bleach was always seen as this wise and experienced guy who planned everything perfectly. Everyone sort-of respected him, even though he wasn't right at all. Zamasu's the opposite. He was a dumb kid way over his head, with too much power, that everyone made fun of. Even so, the Zamasu arc was self-aware about some of DB's BS. Abusing the dragon balls' power and the bullshit characteristics of the Saiyans are examples.

Nevertheless, I don't think they'd be setting up the Omni-Kings as such dangerous entities and the Grand Priest as such a shady figure this arc and the previous one if it didn't lead somewhere. But hey, Dragon Ball Super.

[ABED]

I can't comment specifically on Zamasu as I haven't seen Super, but just because a villain makes a point that has an air of logic to it doesn't mean the story is making the same point. For instance, Baby feeling justified in his motivation doesn't equal the writers believing Baby is justified.

[Doctor.]

I can't comment specifically on Zamasu as I haven't seen Super, but just because a villain makes a point that has an air of logic to it doesn't mean the story is making the same point. For instance, Baby feeling justified in his motivation doesn't equal the writers believing Baby is justified.

Of course not, but the story always portrays the villain's points in a positive or negative light. Super progressively portrayed Zamasu's ideas worse and worse the more insane he became, which tells the audience they're not supposed to take him seriously. Nobody ever confronted Baby about the stuff he believed in and whenever he had his speeches about how the Saiyans were bad, nobody ever tried to defend themselves. What sort of message does that give the audience? That obviously affects the villain, if his beliefs and ideas are being portrayed seriously, yet the character is being hypocritical.

[Gog]

Beerus cleaning Freeza's clock was the worst retcon in the entire franchise. It essentially destroys Freeza's entire belief as the strongest in the universe. It also makes him seem like the greatest moron in existence for not training so that he could surpass him. Rather, instead choosing to continue on as normal. It also breaks the fact that Freeza has never actually transformed past his third form against any threat.

Heck, Freeza should never have known about Beerus in the first place.

[ABED]

I can't comment specifically on Zamasu as I haven't seen Super, but just because a villain makes a point that has an air of logic to it doesn't mean the story is making the same point. For instance, Baby feeling justified in his motivation doesn't equal the writers believing Baby is justified.

Of course not, but the story always portrays the villain's points in a positive or negative light. Super progressively portrayed Zamasu's ideas worse and worse the more insane he became, which tells the audience they're not supposed to take him seriously. Nobody ever confronted Baby about the stuff he believed in and whenever he had his speeches about how the Saiyans were bad, nobody ever tried to defend themselves. What sort of message does that give the audience? That obviously affects the villain, if his beliefs and ideas are being portrayed seriously, yet the character is being hypocritical.

It's not that kind of series to confront these sorts of issues and the audience can come to its own conclusions. It doesn't need to hammer it home that what the villain is doing is wrong.

[Cipher]

Of course not, but the story always portrays the villain's points in a positive or negative light. Super progressively portrayed Zamasu's ideas worse and worse the more insane he became, which tells the audience they're not supposed to take him seriously. Nobody ever confronted Baby about the stuff he believed in and whenever he had his speeches about how the Saiyans were bad, nobody ever tried to defend themselves. What sort of message does that give the audience? That obviously affects the villain, if his beliefs and ideas are being portrayed seriously, yet the character is being hypocritical.

While there's certainly a conversation to be had about Goku's stance toward his Saiyan background as played out during the Baby fight (and I think that exact conversation can be found only ten or so pages back), I don't think the series needed to go any further than it does in having characters dismiss Baby's views. He's clearly unhinged and megalomaniacal, and characters tell him off regularly. Whatever misgivings about Goku's treatment of his origins one may have, he's thorough about never humoring Baby's ideas that targeting Earth could in anyway be justified.

Baby's a run-of-the-mill supervillain with a superiority complex (he's a Tsufuru-jin second, maybe, and the ultimate Machine Mutant first) and a paper-thin moral rationalization for wanting to subjugate the universe. Dragon Ball is, thankfully, not the type of series to pretend that's something that needs to be talk-no-jutsued into intellectual defeat. Zamasu, simlarly, is a run-of-the-mill supervillain with a superiority complex and a paper-thin moral rationalization for wanting to subjugate the universe. Super doesn't spend much time talking down his ideas either. Whenever he goes off, characters either make fun of him or take the opportunity to sock him square in the face. That's all we need, and it's refreshing in a genre (shonen action) so dominated by overwrought melodrama.

I don't think either series portrays these villains ideas anything close to seriously. They're presented as being baseless from the get-go.

Heck, Baby's first actions include killing everyone on board a passenger shuttle Alien-style. This is not a villain of substantive moral weight.

[Kaio_Krazy]

Beerus cleaning Freeza's clock was the worst retcon in the entire franchise. It essentially destroys Freeza's entire belief as the strongest in the universe. It also makes him seem like the greatest moron in existence for not training so that he could surpass him. Rather, instead choosing to continue on as normal. It also breaks the fact that Freeza has never actually transformed past his third form against any threat.

Heck, Freeza should never have known about Beerus in the first place.

Wait, this is an unpopular opinion? Huh well regardless, I 100% agree with you.

[ekrolo2]

Vegeta should've been retired after the Boo arc, there's really nothing left for his character to do except 50 shades of "Look guys! Vegeta cares about other people now!".

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Vegeta should've been retired after the Boo arc, there's really nothing left for his character to do except 50 shades of "Look guys! Vegeta cares about other people now!".

The mentor angle would be very interesting if they'd actually bother themselves to do something with it.

[Cipher]

Vegeta should've been retired after the Boo arc, there's really nothing left for his character to do except 50 shades of "Look guys! Vegeta cares about other people now!".

Shh, don't tell anyone, but the series should have retired after the Boo arc, because it wrapped up everyone's narratives. It isn't just Vegeta who has little left to do.

[Beyond]

Piccolo gets the best meme and parodies of all the characters in the show. Between the funi dub, WTS, and some TFS he has some of the best. Krillin is a good second though. I don't know if it's actually unpopular, but it needed to be said.

[WittyUsername]

Beerus cleaning Freeza's clock was the worst retcon in the entire franchise. It essentially destroys Freeza's entire belief as the strongest in the universe. It also makes him seem like the greatest moron in existence for not training so that he could surpass him. Rather, instead choosing to continue on as normal. It also breaks the fact that Freeza has never actually transformed past his third form against any threat.

Heck, Freeza should never have known about Beerus in the first place.

I agree. The worst thing about that particular retcon though, is the fact that according to Minus and Super, Beerus was apparently the one who gave Freeza the idea to destroy planet Vegeta in the first place...

[ekrolo2]

Vegeta should've been retired after the Boo arc, there's really nothing left for his character to do except 50 shades of "Look guys! Vegeta cares about other people now!".

Shh, don't tell anyone, but the series should have retired after the Boo arc, because it wrapped up everyone's narratives. It isn't just Vegeta who has little left to do.

I think Freeza should've been the end

[Doctor.]

Vegeta should've been retired after the Boo arc, there's really nothing left for his character to do except 50 shades of "Look guys! Vegeta cares about other people now!".

Shh, don't tell anyone, but the series should have retired after the Boo arc, because it wrapped up everyone's narratives. It isn't just Vegeta who has little left to do.

I think Freeza should've been the end

I say it shouldn't have been made. Dragon Ball is a mistake.

[ABED]

I think the Freeza arc would've been a good end point with a few changes to bring true closure. I don't think killing Goku is a fitting ending for the show.

[Cipher]

Freeza arc as an ending works with the sole exception of failing to pull through on Gohan's plot line, and, yes, offing Goku cuts against the tone of the series in a big way. (And not with the sense of nostalgic wrap-up GT offers.)

After the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, I don't think any story line leaves the series feeling nearly as complete as the Boo arc does.