If Alan Moore wrote Dragonball?

Hades · Post by **Hades** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:29 am

What if Alan Moore (V for Vendetta and Watchmen era) had written Dragonball (and by extension Z) instead of Akira Toriyama?

Post by **TheDevilsCorpse** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:40 am

I doubt I'd even be interested in the franchise today. As much as I like more serious stories like Watchmen, I don't typically stay invested for a long period of time. I don't even remember the last time I looked at the book...must have been when the movie was released. Honestly, it was the combination of Toriyama's art style and his sense of humor that combined the wackiness and the action into a perfect little package. So, I'm not sure I'd have really given the franchise a second thought if it wasn't Toriyama who got the ball rolling. That isn't to say that I wouldn't be interested in alternate retellings by various authors now that the series has it's hooks in me...

Gonstead · Post by **Gonstead** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:48 am

I would have gone "WTF is this?" and changed the channel soon afterwards, forgetting it for the rest of my life.

Michelle91 · Post by **Michelle91** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:51 am

It would have been a totally different series and the series would have been a lot shorter. Alan Moore and Akira Toriyama are two totally different writers and it's pretty impossible to compare them. It's like comparing F. W. Murnau to J. J. Abrams.

The Time Traveller · Post by **The Time Traveller** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:53 pm

Not really much of a Moore fan, I liked V for Vendetta and Batman: The Killing Joke but it would just be less charming as a whole.

Cipher · Post by **Cipher** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:28 pm

It wouldn't even be comparable?

I ... I guess you'd have Alan Moore mixing genre elements of wuxia, Chinese fairy tales and pop-culture Hong Kong kung-fu into a limited-run, serialized piece of fiction that would either be middlingly pretentious (probably) or a postmodern triumph (maybe).

So ... cool?

Scarz · Post by **Scarz** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:38 pm

I rather see Frank Miller write a DB comic. The insanity level will be through the roof!

Cipher · Post by **Cipher** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:03 pm

Scarz wrote:I rather see Frank Miller write a DB comic. The insanity level will be through the roof!

I would buy this in a heartbeat.

penguintruth · Post by **penguintruth** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:18 pm

"Vegeta's journal: Meeting with Zarbon left bad taste in mouth. He is pampered and decadent, betraying even his own shallow, evil affectations. Possibly homosexual? Must investigate further."

mattymoron · Post by **mattymoron** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:38 pm

I'd like to see Grant Morrison's take on a Dragon Ball comic.

SparkyPantsMcGee · Post by **SparkyPantsMcGee** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:50 pm

He'd make some back handed comment about the adaptation to cartoon from his work and then complain years later,calling his fans morons, if they went out to purchase Kai. So, same thing he does now...

However despite his personality, you can't argue about that man's talent. If he were to do Dragonball it would be very thought provoking but I fear it might lose some of its charm.

mattymoron wrote:I'd like to see Grant Morrison's take on a Dragon Ball comic.

This would probably make my head explode.

Cipher · Post by **Cipher** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:09 pm

mattymoron wrote:I'd like to see Grant Morrison's take on a Dragon Ball comic.

Just go read some chapters out of order and imagine there's a bunch of alienating, self-referential nods. Have a character talk about the events of a semi-canonical movie every once in a while or something.

When you're done, you can spend the next volume pondering whether you've actually read something smarter, or something equally childish but more obtuse.

penguintruth · Post by **penguintruth** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:07 pm

Cipher wrote:
mattymoron wrote:I'd like to see Grant Morrison's take on a Dragon Ball comic.
Just go read some chapters out of order and imagine there's a bunch of alienating, self-referential nods. Have a character talk about the events of a semi-canonical movie every once in a while or something.

When you're done, you can spend the next volume pondering whether you've actually read something smarter, or something equally childish but more obtuse.

That is so true.

mattymoron · Post by **mattymoron** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:12 pm

Cipher wrote:
mattymoron wrote:I'd like to see Grant Morrison's take on a Dragon Ball comic.
Just go read some chapters out of order and imagine there's a bunch of alienating, self-referential nods. Have a character talk about the events of a semi-canonical movie every once in a while or something.

When you're done, you can spend the next volume pondering whether you've actually read something smarter, or something equally childish but more obtuse.

I appreciate how closely his work mirrors the mindset of a trip. I'd say that smarter and more childish aren't mutually exclusive.

Cipher · Post by **Cipher** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:30 pm

SparkyPantsMcGee wrote:He'd make some back handed comment about the adaptation to cartoon from his work and then complain years later,calling his fans morons, if they went out to purchase Kai.

Wait, I just clicked that link. They're making a prequel series to Watchmen without Moore at the helm?

That ... that is really stupid. I'm not an ever-loving Moore fanboy either; truly, I think Watchmen was something of accidental genius and plenty of work has just been overly pretentious and above-average genre.

But unless he really had something else to say with these characters and was helming it himself, yeah, I have to agree. Hell, even if he were writing it himself, I'd have reservations, maybe even more so.It is kind of moronic to call yourself a Watchmen fan and clamber for a prequel. At the very least, it indicates you enjoyed it for vastly different reasons than Moore intended or than it's usually recognized and celebrated for. I don't think what he said was unreasonable at all.

mattymoron wrote:I appreciate how closely his work mirrors the mindset of a trip. I'd say that smarter and more childish aren't mutually exclusive.

I was just playing rough. As far as people you'd want manning a serious genre series, he's definitely top-notch and clearly cares about his work. I just think it's a mistake to think he's doing anything really groundbreaking or cerebral. And if all you're in it for is the trippiness, well, there's way trippier fiction out there without the clutter of all that self-referentialism I mentioned or having to keep pace with a company-wide multiverse.

Anyway, Dragon Ball. Dragon Ball is simple and fun, and that's why we love it.

mattymoron · Post by **mattymoron** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:44 pm

Cipher wrote:I was just playing rough. As far as people you'd want manning a serious genre series, he's definitely top-notch and clearly cares about his work. I just think it's a mistake to think he's doing anything really groundbreaking or cerebral. And if all you're in it for is the trippiness, well, there's way trippier fiction out there without the clutter of all that self-referentialism I mentioned or having to keep pace with a company-wide multiverse.

Anyway, Dragon Ball. Dragon Ball is simple and fun, and that's why we love it.

Eh, I LOOOOOOOVE continuity within the works I read. I don't read a lot of comics, but I'm usually very up-to-date with most of what happens within them. I'm a big fan of shared world fiction, purely because you get a chance to develop a huge, author spanning continuity.

SparkyPantsMcGee · Post by **SparkyPantsMcGee** » Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:02 am

Cipher wrote:
SparkyPantsMcGee wrote:He'd make some back handed comment about the adaptation to cartoon from his work and then complain years later,calling his fans morons, if they went out to purchase Kai.
Wait, I just clicked that link. They're making a prequel series to Watchmen without Moore at the helm?

That ... that is really stupid. I'm not an ever-loving Moore fanboy either; truly, I think Watchmen was something of accidental genius and plenty of work has just been overly pretentious and above-average genre.

But unless he really had something else to say with these characters and was helming it himself, yeah, I have to agree. Hell, even if he were writing it himself, I'd have reservations, maybe even more so.It is kind of moronic to call yourself a Watchmen fan and clamber for a prequel. At the very least, it indicates you enjoyed it for vastly different reasons than Moore intended or than it's usually recognized and celebrated for. I don't think what he said was unreasonable at all.

The writers for Before Watchmen are actually some of the top writers in the business. The first issues for a handful of the books have been out for a short while now and while I haven't read them(honestly I had no intrust or money) I hear Minutemen is actually really good.

Personally I feel all that can be said, has been said, with Watchmen and while I don't have any interest in this I can definitely see where the interest is coming from. These are top notch writers(seriously go check out who is working on these books) and it's dealing with a universe that hasn't really been explored. I don't see anything wrong with being curious about it in the same way I'm ok with people being interested in Episode of Bardock or any of the other Spin-off Dragonball stories we've seen recently. Which reminds me, if Moore wrote Dragonball I'd love to see what he'd say about things like Episode of Bardock; Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans; or Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!!

Cipher · Post by **Cipher** » Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:29 am

SparkyPantsMcGee wrote:Personally I feel all that can be said, has been said, with Watchmen and while I don't have any interest in this I can definitely see where the interest is coming from. These are top notch writers(seriously go check out who is working on these books) and it's dealing with a universe that hasn't really been explored. I don't see anything wrong with being curious about it in the same way I'm ok with people being interested in Episode of Bardock or any of the other Spin-off Dragonball stories we've seen recently. Which reminds me, if Moore wrote Dragonball I'd love to see what he'd say about things like Episode of Bardock; Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans; or Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!!

Well, let's just ride this one one out, because I've got my English major/nerd rage mode on.

My issue is -- and I actually haven't seen this expressed a lot, having gone through some reviews and links in the last half-hour -- that regardless of the individual quality of these stories, it really flies in the face of the original work and reflects badly on both DC and the fans who await these issues to even publish them.

It isn't just that Watchmen is a perfectly fine self-contained story and a prequel happens to be unnecessary. I mean, that's true, but that wouldn't make the prequel offensive. I might still be inclined to check it out. This is the category things like Episode of Bardock fall into. It's definitely not necessary; maybe I even feels it hurts the integrity of the original work to include it; but at the end of the day it's fine as a bit of apocrypha.

The problem with Before Watchmen is that Moore (and again, I don't think he's an untouchable genius, but he was on-form here) wrote a postmodern farewell to the superhero genre. It did more than that, obviously, or it wouldn't be as universally celebrated, but one of its major accomplishments was to take things like 28-issue prequel comics and the silly stories within them and say, "Okay, guys, we're done. We don't need to say any more right now." And it worked really well. He did that with a bunch of generic, stand-in superheroes no one could ever care about outside this particular story and it worked. The universe they existed in was a generic comic universe.

I tried really hard to think of another example or analogy in the realm of fiction for what putting this series out at all is like, and I'm coming up short. But picture a work (a film, a book, a comic, a movie, even a video-game if you want) that is hugely critical of the medium, genre and industry it sets itself in. Obviously it does a lot more, but that's part of it. It's so successful at doing so that it's heralded as a standout work in all those categories and is an acclaimed piece of art for decades.

Then the publisher, studio, whoever, looks at it and says, "Wow, everybody loves this! We should continue it!" Then they produce more material exactly in the vein of all the pratfalls the original pointed out, just by existing, just in its mere conception. And then plenty of the same people who loved the original either clamor for it or say, "Well, hey, I didn't need it, but at least it's pretty good."

But it can't be good.

Because if it cared about the original work, it wouldn't exist. If it cared about being a good story, it wouldn't needlessly set itself within the derivative confines a set of characters and story which had already been exhausted; it can never live up to its potential with that foundation. It's a waste all around.

I struggled to think of another example, I think, because most artistic industries simply aren't as immature (for this and so many other reasons) as comics. It's really unfortunate. And I guess that's why. At the end of the day, I'll probably never read it and can just write it off. I'm sure I'll hardly remember it happened. But it says so many unfortunate things about both comic companies and fans. And it's kind of generally offensive in an "understanding fiction" sense.

Also, Dragon Ball.

SparkyPantsMcGee · Post by **SparkyPantsMcGee** » Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:48 am

I'm not disagreeing with you because your argument is part of the reason I have no interest in the books. There will never be another Watchmen and I think to some extent DC knows this. They have described this as a passion project or something to the extent of a love letter to the original work. I don't know were this is going but if you look up interviews with Darwyn Cooke before he took on this project you'll see most of DC(including him) were kind of against the idea. However, something clicked and they jumped on board. What this means for Before Watchmen, I don't know. However, I want to see the completed project before I buy/support/judge this series because I have respect for the guys involved; and like you said Moore isn't untouchable.

One last thing I wanted to bring up because I always found this interesting:

He did that with a bunch of generic, stand-in superheroes no one could ever care about outside this particular story and it worked. The universe they existed in was a generic comic universe.

Originally Moore wanted to use the acquired Charlton characters DC had just obtained at the time. However DC had plans for those characters but loved Moore's idea. This forced him and Gibbons to come up with their own characters. Just a fun fact I wanted to bring up.

Also, this video kind of spotlights most of my opinion on the matter and it's kind of a fun watch(his videos are great):
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/ ... r-Watchmen

...damn it's late! Oh and yes, Dragonball!

Cipher · Post by **Cipher** » Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:03 am

SparkyPantsMcGee wrote:Originally Moore wanted to use the acquired Charlton characters DC had just obtained at the time. However DC had plans for those characters but loved Moore's idea. This forced him and Gibbons to come up with their own characters. Just a fun fact I wanted to bring up.

That's actually why I made that comment. He was prepared to use real superheroes for his send off, but when denied the opportunity, he put a bunch of relative ciphers in their place to make the story work. The point either way is that he wasn't looking to create a bunch of renewable, iconic characters. He was looking to either end a bunch or create suitable stand-ins.

Which is what makes this attitude so appalling:

“It’s our responsibility as publishers to find new ways to keep all of our characters relevant,” said DC Entertainment Co-Publishers Dan DiDio and Jim Lee in the company’s press release. “After twenty five years, the Watchmen are classic characters whose time has come for new stories to be told. We sought out the best writers and artists in the industry to build on the complex mythology of the original.”

Watchmen was a po-mo farewell to the superhero genre, a total about-face on the ideas of "classic characters" and modern legends and "complex mythologies." So it's really baffling to see the current DC powers that be think they're somehow obligated to turn it into exactly that. And it's a shame that, whatever decent work comes out of it, it'll be tied to that poor idea and the creative teams aren't doing something unfettered and new instead. That's what I find so icky about the whole thing.

But, yeah, I think we're more-or-less on the same page, so I guess that's a wrap.

And also something about Goku.

Kanzenshuu

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