"Jaco the Galactic Patrolman" discussion (incl. "DB Minus")

[The Monkey King]

All of this complaining is because Toei's original Bardock special was so damn good.
Even Toriyama loved it and basically told the story through Freeza's eyes in his manga.
And let's be honest, does one person here prefer DB- to the Bardock Special?
I really doubt anyone does.

[FortuneSSJ]

All of this complaining is because Toei's original Bardock special was so damn good.
Even Toriyama loved it and basically told the story through Freeza's eyes in his manga.
And let's be honest, does one person here prefer DB- to the Bardock Special?
I really doubt anyone does.

i dont understand Toriyama behavior anymore. if anything Dragon ball related, he should just focus on Battle of Gods sequel.
Not change what was done brilliantly in the past. But whatever, there are 12 universes and alternate timelines, I just put Dragon Ball Minus in a different one.

[Flame Dragon]

All of this complaining is because Toei's original Bardock special was so damn good.
Even Toriyama loved it and basically told the story through Freeza's eyes in his manga.
And let's be honest, does one person here prefer DB- to the Bardock Special?
I really doubt anyone does.

i dont understand Toriyama behavior anymore. if anything Dragon ball related, he should just focus on Battle of Gods sequel.
Not change what was done brilliantly in the past. But whatever, there are 12 universes and alternate timelines, I just put Dragon Ball Minus in a different one.

Toriyama should pull an Ocarina of Time and make an official timeline for all universes and alternate time periods. So finally we can see what movies are connected to the plot, what movies and specials are caused by what if events, what happened to Future Trunks universe etc.
Wait, what i'm talking about? There's no way Toriyama could pull that off without screwing up, being so forgetful these days.

[Makaioshin]

And let's be honest, does one person here prefer DB- to the Bardock Special?
I really doubt anyone does.

I prefer Jaco the Galactic Patrolman as a whole to the TV special. But I like the TV version of Bardock more than Minus's.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Why would he put the whole special in the manga? There's no logic place for it except Bardock's last stand which Freeza would remember. Toriyama could have ignored the special entirely, but he liked it enough to incorporate (the parts that made sense) it into the manga, thus making it something more than "just some filler that Toei made up".

Toriyama could have made a special chapter of it (aka a manga adaptation of it), like he did for Trunks. Or, he could have said in an interview "the TV Special is part of my story" or something like that, like it happened in One Piece, where a movie villain was mentioned in the manga, and then Oda, the writer, said that the movie (OP: Strong World) was an adventure that happened in both manga & anime. But Toriyama showed us that at least a part of the TV Special happened, with DB- proving that the TV Special as it is never happened.

And let's be honest, does one person here prefer DB- to the Bardock Special?
I really doubt anyone does.

I prefer the TV Special, but what does this have to do with canon at all?

[hleV]

Sorry to say it, but if it never was part of the story then he shouldn't acknowledged it, nor referenced it on his manga, nor allow Episode of Bardock to be made manga wise.

Define "acknowledged". Toriyama only put Bardock -- a character he himself made the design for -- as Freeza's flashback of Planet Vegeta's destruction. It doesn't necessarily mean that the whole Bardock special is now suddenly true to the original story, it means that Toriyama simply took that scene as a reference, thus in the original story, that scene happened pretty much the same way as in Bardock special. Not sure what you mean by "allow EOB to be made manga-wise".

[Luso Saiyan]

Toriyama could have made a special chapter of it

Considering that he wasn't more involved with the TV special due to having his hands full with the main manga, it's understandable that he didn't "waste time" making an whole extra chapter out of it.

[The Time Traveller]

Just bought the issue with it in English on the WSJ app on my phone, pretty good, enjoyable. I've always considered the TV special non-canon anyway since Goku arrives on Earth as a sweet baby instead of a violent dick punching baby, so I don't care about that. The flash we see in Dragon Ball where Burdock is killed by Freeza probably still happened though, so that's cool.

I don't think it makes sense having Freeza know about Super Saiyan God, Beerus didn't even know about it until he dreamt about it over 10 years later.

Does Burdock's partner even have a name? Is that supposed to be Toma?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Toriyama could have made a special chapter of it

Considering that he wasn't more involved with the TV special due to having his hands full with the main manga, it's understandable that he didn't "waste time" making an whole extra chapter out of it.

He still never said anywhere that the TV Special happened in the manga continuity. He added a scene of it, but that doesn't mean that everything else is also part of the story. Is it possible? Sure, it could have happened, until DB- came and killed any possibility.

[soulnova]

Now I have a couple of new questions I would like Toriyama to expand upon:

• Infiltrator babies: Gine is worried Bardock wants to send Kakarotto off planet as an infiltrator baby. It seems the saiyan children they used to send to fight were of the age of Raditz and Lil Vegeta. Were the babies supposed to stay put until the adults came? Perhaps gathering information to share for the invasion later on? Gine promises they would go and pick him up if Bardock was wrong, Which means they didn’t expected him at all to purge the planet himself. I would like to know the exact role of these “Infiltrator babies”.
• The Incubator. Gine placed Goku in the incubator for 3 years. Damn. Is there a special health reason for that or they simply didn't want to deal with the raising of a child and focus on something else until he/she was at a certain age? I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case but I would want to know if the incubator tank gave him basic information about the planet and his culture…. pretty much like Grunt from Mass Effect 2.
• Are there any other survivors? We so far had Nappa, Vegeta, Raditz, Tarble and Kakarot. Even if the Saiyans were so few, I'm surprised most of them actually made it back before the planet was destroyed.

What else would you like to know?

[RandomGuy96]

There's also Tullece, Paragus, and Broly. Hey, if you're counting Tarble, it's not fair to exclude them. That makes eight.

I don't think it's that shocking that they all made it back except for a few. There was literally a few thousand of them, which is an insanely tiny population.

I also am interested in baby Goku's role. Glad to hear that it is apparently not normal for every Saiyan baby to just exterminate a planet soon after birth, as that's silly.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

There's also Tullece, Paragus, and Broly. Hey, if you're counting Tarble, it's not fair to exclude them. That makes eight.

It's perfectly valid to exclude those three when their films can fit into the continuity being discussed, unlike Tarble's special.

[Marco Polo]

There's also Tullece, Paragus, and Broly. Hey, if you're counting Tarble, it's not fair to exclude them. That makes eight.

Tarble was mentioned in the story about Super Saiyan God, which itself was mentioned in Dragon Ball Minus. None of the other Saiyans you listed were.

[Mewzard]

I did like that DB- didn't have to rely on a "Bardock randomly gets psychic powers" plot to progress. It's quite understandable for Bardock to be suspicious given the sudden exodus of all Saiyans onto the planet and his questioning about Super Saiyans. Bardock's instincts and being cautious being what saved Goku instead of him being the last ship off the planet before its destruction is far more interesting.

Also, what were the odds that all but four Saiyans (at the time) being on world, given they were known for being sent out to take worlds? Freeza's destruction of the world seemed so last minute (and concerned about Bardock of all people?). I liked that DB- had Freeza plan this out in advance, to call the Saiyans to the planet, and even wait it out a month to blow up the proverbial barrel full of monkeys. Vegeta's arrogance saved himself and Raditz, and Bardock's caution and suspicion saved Goku...Nappa? I would assume he was one who was simply too far away to make it back in time for the planet's destruction.

So yeah, I do like DB- more than the TV Special. Freeza's destruction of the planet is less a whim and more calculated, the plot device of psychic powers is dropped for a more reasonable one of Bardock trusting his instincts on a very suspicious scenario, it does build on what we know of Saiyans with both their population and what non-combative Saiyans do (plus how they "raise" Saiyan babies), we actually get Goku's whole family this time around (instead of having a non-existent mother and ignoring Raditz all together), and it works all nicely together with Jaco and DB itself (honestly, with Toriyama, I feared we'd have a lot more iffy sections and plotholes, but he did fairly good I feel).

I appreciate Toriyama expanding the DB universe in his own way. This and Jaco may be the last time Toriyama ever draws something DB related again (of course, he'll probably work on future BoG sequels), but I enjoyed the ride while they lasted.

[Shineman]

It’s kind of hilarious with some people complaining about Dragon Ball Minus. Some people act like that anything Toriyama doesn’t do, it’s considered subpar and bad, and shouldn’t be considered. Yet, complains about DB-, Bardock’s characters and vice versa and claiming that Toriyama should stop making Dragon Ball; making it ironic.

This whole canon thing shouldn't even be a issue, even with the inclusion of DB-. What's stopping the fans to not considered Jaco, DB- or both not being canon to Dragon Ball? Surely it's the same as fans considering anime-content non canon as well. Thus, it's all meaningless talking about the concept of canon. It leads nowhere.

[VegettoEX]

It’s kind of hilarious with some people complaining about Dragon Ball Minus. Some people act like that anything Toriyama doesn’t do, it’s considered subpar and bad, and shouldn’t be considered. Yet, complains about DB-, Bardock’s characters and vice versa and claiming that Toriyama should stop making Dragon Ball; making it ironic.

You make that assumption, or as least presume for the sake of your argument holding any water, that EVERYONE who dislikes DB products WITHOUT Toriyama's involvement should then therefore LIKE what he's done here.

That just isn't the case when it comes to something like this.

[FortuneSSJ]

Are there any other survivors? We so far had Nappa, Vegeta, Raditz, Tarble and Kakarot. Even if the Saiyans were so few, I'm surprised most of them actually made it back before the planet was destroyed.[/list]

What else would you like to know?

Is Gine alive or not?! Since Bardock predicted the end he could have told her to run away.
Thats my only question. Hope to get a answer from Tori eventually.

[MagicBox]

And let's be honest, does one person here prefer DB- to the Bardock Special?

*raises hand*

I don't think Minus is perfect. A lot of the dialogue is generic. The chapter's (very) short length, coupled with Toriyama's lack of confidence with dramatic stories, keep Burdock and Gine from being developed in any meaningful way. It definitely doesn't give Burdock as much personality as the TV special did. But I prefer Minus' story. It just makes so much more sense. Mewzard covered a lot of my feelings already. I like how Freeza's plan to exterminate the Saiyans is more carefully calculated. I like that Burdock uses his own instincts instead of psychic plot devices. I think Vegeta was more in-character in his quick Minus cameo than he was in the entire animated TV special. And sending Goku to Earth as a toddler? I *love* that. The whole "send them as newborns, but without armor" thing never made a lick of sense. I never liked that.

It has its flaws, but I think Minus does a better job of explaining this part of the story. And hey, I can still adore the TV special. Win-win.

Toriyama should pull an Ocarina of Time and make an official timeline for all universes and alternate time periods. So finally we can see what movies are connected to the plot, what movies and specials are caused by what if events, what happened to Future Trunks universe etc. Wait, what i'm talking about? There's no way Toriyama could pull that off without screwing up, being so forgetful these days.

Saying "these days" implies that he would have cared about something like this at one point in the past, which simply isn't true.

I don't really think you know what kind of a person Akira Toriyama is if you'd ever expect him to care about connecting the movies, specials, multiverse, etc. like that.

[Marco Polo]

Are there any other survivors? We so far had Nappa, Vegeta, Raditz, Tarble and Kakarot. Even if the Saiyans were so few, I'm surprised most of them actually made it back before the planet was destroyed.[/list]

What else would you like to know?

Is Gine alive or not?! Since Bardock predicted the end he could have told her to run away.
Thats my only question. Hope to get a answer from Tori eventually.

Bardock says right there in DB- that they can't run away, unlike baby Kakarot, because Freeza would instantly detect them.

[Gaffer Tape]

I feel like I'm really behind on the bandwagon here, but I just read DB- for the first time. And color me disgusted.

You know what? I don't care. I *really* don't care that it contradicts the TV special. I never cared. In fact, I expected it, especially after that shot of toddler Goku in Jaco appeared. I was almost looking forward to it. I never assumed that just because Toriyama put Bardock in a couple of panels in the manga that that undeniably meant the entirety of the special was canon to the manga continuity. So Toriyama wanted to do his own take? I admit I was hesitant about the idea of adding Goku's mother in, and I think I was pretty vocal about that when it was first announced, but I was trying to reserve judgment until I actually saw where it was going.

But when I get right down to it, ignoring the TV special entirely, I find that this is just a *terrible* story. There is just no way something this short can get across the ideas and feelings it hints at, so the whole thing just careens along at a breakneck pace that's almost nothing but clunky exposition and unexplained motives and characterizations. I was worried that Gine was going to be some perfect, wonderful fanfic-esque character, but, honestly, if I hadn't already read the Toriyama interview about her, I'd barely have any idea who she was. Hell, I still barely know who she was. I barely know who Bardock is!

Maybe it's just my prior knowledge of the series, but I can't exactly commend Bardock for "solving the big mystery." I mean, really? Freeza has been asking around about the Super Saiyan, the legendary warrior said to be stronger than all else (even Freeza), and he suddenly and unexpectedly calls all the Saiyans back to the same location? Um... trap, much? But, again, it's dealt with so quickly and vaguely that I'm not sure if all the other Saiyans look like complete idiots for not putting two and two together, or that Bardock looks like a paranoid conspiracy theorist for being so sure about it with so little information.

Then there's the fact that this origin story is just such a copy of Superman. I mean, the parallels have always been tossed around. But this...? I half expected Bardock to put his hand on the space pod and say, "They can be a great people, Kal-El-Karrot. They wish to be. They only lack the light to show them the way." So completely gone is the idea that Goku was sent to earth to destroy it by his barbaric race but through a twist of fortune ended up becoming good. Instead, he was sent there by his loving parents to keep him safe.

It's exactly what I feared. It makes Goku too "special." Or, specifically, it makes his origin too special. His parents were aberrations who loved each other and showed affection to their children. They're the only ones who figured out what Freeza was up to and took the steps that ultimately led to Freeza's defeat. It's just too pat. I hate to make the comparison, especially in light of everyone balking that it "retcons" the TV special (which it doesn't... the TV special would have had to have been explicitly in the manga's continuity to begin with in order to be retconned), but the TV special walked that tightrope perfectly. It gave Bardock just enough pathos and uniqueness that you could sympathize with him as the protagonist, but it didn't make him out to be anything more than just an evil thug. It played with the idea of him trying to do something to make a difference to his fate and his son's fate, but he ultimately failed, which makes Freeza's memories of him tragically humorous: he was just that guy who got in the way at the last second, and nothing special about him was even remembered or known.

Ultimately, it's fan-service, plain and simple. There's no story here. It's just a bunch of, "Ooh, look, it's Goku's parents." "Ooh, look, it's Vegeta and Raditz as kids." "Ooh, look at all the shiny new backstory." What a waste. I'd rather it not have been written, which is a shame because what I've read of Jaco I've enjoyed immensely. But between this and the abysmal Episode of Bardock, I'd say it's clear they need to put this character on a shelf and never, ever use him again.