Your personal canon (AGAIN!)

[Sailor Haumea]

Despite the fact that they seem to silently acknowledge that Toriyama's works are the "canon" for lack of a better word

Yet for some reason they won't announce it.

The only thing I can think of is that they're afraid if they do then fans won't support their other products like the movies, GT, ect.

Here's another reason: They don't give a flying fuck about canon.

[sintzu]

Here's another reason: They don't give a flying fuck about canon.

That too.

[Zephyr]

The only person making any sort of issue out of it is you.

Because there's such confusion.

I don't see the point in reminding everyone that you think the semantic value of the strictest definitions of the words used to articulate the concept are logically incoherent together.

Maybe if people were more consistent, they wouldn't be so confused on these issues. And to turn this around, I don't see the point of putting these two concepts together. You're just confusing people.

Every user posting their "personal canon" know exactly what they're posting about. You've admitted that you understand the concept, despite not liking the terminology chosen to denote it. Who is confused?

I understand if the flexibility of language bothers you, but you're not actually confused by it, are you?

[ABED]

The only person making any sort of issue out of it is you.

Because there's such confusion.

I don't see the point in reminding everyone that you think the semantic value of the strictest definitions of the words used to articulate the concept are logically incoherent together.

Maybe if people were more consistent, they wouldn't be so confused on these issues. And to turn this around, I don't see the point of putting these two concepts together. You're just confusing people.

Every user posting their "personal canon" know exactly what they're posting about. You've admitted that you understand the concept, despite not liking the terminology chosen to denote it. Who is confused?

I understand if the flexibility of language bothers you, but you're not actually confused by it, are you?

This isn't about language being flexible, it's about people being ignorant to the point where the concepts mean nothing. What I'm confused by is why some are so needy about canon that they create such a dumb term. Yes, language is fluid, but a big problem is that people use that as an excuse for creating terms or adding definitions to one which ultimately create confusion. If it bothers me, it's not for asinine reasons which seems to be your implication.

And no, I don't think people on here are clear about "personal canon" for two reasons, there are constant disagreements about what it all means and the very fact that "personal canon" became a term to begin with.

[rereboy]

I don't think anybody is confused. People seem to get that "personal canon" basically means "what I would like to be canon or what would be canon if I had complete control of the franchise and could freely determine by myself what is canon and what isn't", and people use the term because it's far easier to say those two words than use a long sentence like I've just done and because those two words are satisfactory in transmitting the idea.

[ABED]

I don't think anybody is confused. People seem to get that "personal canon" basically means "what I would like to be canon or what would be canon if I had complete control of the franchise and could freely determine by myself what is canon and what isn't", and people use the term because it's far easier to say those two words than use a long sentence like I've just done and because those two words are satisfactory in transmitting the idea.

Considering the number of people that don't understand the concept, I'd say that it isn't satisfactory.

[rereboy]

I don't think anybody is confused. People seem to get that "personal canon" basically means "what I would like to be canon or what would be canon if I had complete control of the franchise and could freely determine by myself what is canon and what isn't", and people use the term because it's far easier to say those two words than use a long sentence like I've just done and because those two words are satisfactory in transmitting the idea.

Considering the number of people that don't understand the concept, I'd say that it isn't satisfactory.

I haven't fully read all the topics in the forum where the term appears but I highly doubt the number of people not understanding it is nearly high enough for it to not be satisfactory since I've seen no actually significant confusion about it that I can recall. What people seem to struggle are their different views on what canon is or should be, not actually the concept of personal canon.

And even if there was some confusion, I don't see a better alternative term to refer to the concept.

[Anime Kitten]

You know, Mr. ABED, if you don't like the idea of "personal canon", you're not required to participate in threads like these. Just ignore them. If this issue bothers you as much as it does, then don't be involved in said issue.

[ABED]

actually the concept of personal canon.

And even if there was some confusion, I don't see a better alternative term to refer to the concept.

It's not even a concept, it's a bastardization based on people's misunderstanding of canon and this incessant need for it.

There may not be a shorter term for it, but that's not a good enough reason to take two disparate concepts and lump them together.

I've read people say head canon or personal canon is either what they would consider canon if they were put in charge or their imagined version of events. Do you not see why lumping a bunch of different definitions isn't a good idea?

[rereboy]

actually the concept of personal canon.

And even if there was some confusion, I don't see a better alternative term to refer to the concept.

It's not even a concept, it's a bastardization based on people's misunderstanding of canon and this incessant need for it.

There may not be a shorter term for it, but that's not a good enough reason to take two disparate concepts and lump them together.

I've read people say head canon or personal canon is either what they would consider canon if they were put in charge or their imagined version of events. Do you not see why lumping a bunch of different definitions isn't a good idea?

I don't see it. It's a term easy to understand for me and it seems to easy to understand for most, and since I can't find a term that does a better job in transmitting the concept, and neither can anyone that I've encountered so far, including you apparently, I'm not going to think that it's not a good idea.

[TheGreatness25]

With so much different material and side material, how do you not expect people to put it all together how it works for them? There's manga canon, anime canon, Toei canon, Kai canon, movie canon, video game canon. You're talking about it from the manga/Toriyama canon perspective, but the movies and video games are real things that are official, so you obviously they gave their own canon.

[Zephyr]

And no, I don't think people on here are clear about "personal canon" for two reasons, there are constant disagreements about what it all means and the very fact that "personal canon" became a term to begin with.

Considering the number of people that don't understand the concept, I'd say that it isn't satisfactory.

Again: who is confused?

I've read people say head canon or personal canon is either what they would consider canon if they were put in charge or their imagined version of events.

I know there is technically a semantic distinction there, but the two things you described are not mutually exclusive. Again, language is fluid. Why would someone not consider their imagined version of events "canon" if they were in charge of declaring what was and what was not canon? A term (in this case "headcanon") can obviously refer to one of those things, the other, or both simultaneously. Everyone in these threads just seems to realize this without even having to discuss it to this abstract, pedantic degree. You're literally the only person confused here, and it's really not that confusing. If it bothers and confuses you this much still, and it's literally only you, then popping into every "what's your headcanon" thread to remind everyone, who's discussing a concept that they understand, that you don't understand it and think it's stupid is just going to come off as annoying cry for attention. Imagine if someone popped into every battle power thread and just spouted "LOL power levels are bullshit xD".

that's not a good enough reason to take two disparate concepts and lump them together.

I'm convinced that seeing something like this in the grocery store or pharmacy must give you an aneurysm:

It's not even a concept

It is a concept. It's clearly a concept. If it wasn't a concept, there wouldn't be countless threads discussing it. If it wasn't a concept, you wouldn't be complaining so incessantly about what people choose to call it. And it's one that you understand. It's just a concept whose corresponding colloquial term seems to bother the living hell out of you. Case in point:

it's a bastardization based on people's misunderstanding of canon and this incessant need for it.

[ABED]

Zephyr, you're grasping at straw. Seriously, Icy Hot!? It goes from cool and then warm. It's not two opposing concepts at the same exact time.

Language is fluid, but that's the most asinine justification for creating a non-sensical term that only exists because some desperately cling to canon. All that says to me is that because some people are dumb enough to misuse the terms then language reflects that.

You're literally the only person confused here

I'm not confused here so please stop saying that, and I see it all the time on this forum that people are confused by what canon is and stupid terms like "personal canon" don't help matters. Not just people on this forum either, I see it all over the internet.

[Zephyr]

Zephyr, you're grasping at straw. Seriously, Icy Hot!?

But they're two contradictory terms! How on Earth could anyone think it makes a lick of sense to pair the two words together? Ice? Heat? Together!? But heat melts ice, and all you're left with is water! What an asinine misuse of terminology!

a non-sensical term

But we can make sense of it. We have been doing so. If you're so desperate to be pedantic about the most absolutely strict definition of every word in every sentence in every post, why would you feel justified in calling something "non-sensical" when it clearly makes sense to everyone else?

people are confused by what canon is and stupid terms like "personal canon" don't help matters.

The very fact that they're asking for a personal version of it implies that they know that, on its own and in the official capacity, canon is inherently not up to them. There's no confusion.

I'm not confused here

No offense, but you're doing an abysmally poor job of demonstrating that.

[ABED]

Again withy Icy Hot. First off, it's a brand name, and second, the two sensations don't occur at the exact same time. Stop using this example to mock me, it's not remotely the same thing.

The very fact that they're asking for a personal version of it implies that they know that

No it doesn't because before the term canon was used, people would ask, but just use different words and didn't lump two terms that don't go together. I've seen people ask "what's your version of canon" proving they have no idea what it means.

No offense, but you're doing an abysmally poor job of demonstrating that.

You would say that since you don't get the crux of the argument. I, personally, am not confused by it. I've made that abundantly clear. How have I not understood what people mean by it? Show me one single post where I was confused by this so-called concept. My issue has and will always be that it's a silly term.

[rereboy]

My issue has and will always be that it's a silly term.

It's a term that satisfactorily transmits the concept that people want to transmit with no other term doing a better job. Even you admit that you aren't confused by it, despite arguing that it's confusing. In those conditions, it's far more silly to argue that it's silly than it actually is.

[TheOverlyMadHatter]

Hm, well, here's what I would consider canon at the moment:

-Jaco The Galactic Patrolman (Minus DB, err... Minus.)
-Dragon Ball Z: A Final, Solitary Battle - The Father of Z-Warrior Kakarrot, Who Challenged Freeza
-Dragon Ball Kanzenban Manga, (Minus the Trunks side-story chapter)
-Dragon Ball Z: Defiance in the Face of Despair!! The Remaining Super Warriors - Gohan and Trunks
-Dragon Ball: Heya! Son Goku and his Friends Return!!
-Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods - Extended Edition
-Dragon Ball Z: Revival of F - Trunks Edition
-Dragon Ball Super Manga (Minus the BoG arc)

If I were to rewrite most of Toei's Material to fit into one Canon by making (major, in some cases) tweaks to filler episodes and movies, it would go this way. (Brace yourselves. This is a long one):

[spoiler]-Jaco the Galactic Patrolman (again without Minus)
-DBZ Bardock Special
-Episode of Bardock.
-The Dragon Ball anime begins at the Pilaf Arc
-Alternate version of DB Movie 1 happens during the search and culminates to the acquisision of a Dragon Ball. No Shenron summoning.
-Pilaf Arc ends and goes into the beginning of 21st Tenka-ichi Budoukai arc.
-Alt. Movie 2, Lunch is introduced this way.
-The Dragon Ball anime continues as it was.
-DBZ Movie 1, without the presence of Krillin. Goku just tracks Garlic Jr down by maintaining a close chase.
-Saiyan Arc
-Namek arc beings, Alt. Movie 2 takes place while Gohan, Kuririn and Bulma are in Space.
-Gohan and Kuririn encounter Turles and his Crusher Corps in space.
-They then encounter Slug on Namek, foreshadowing the concept of the Super Namek.
-Namek arc continues as it was
-Garlic Jr. Arc, with Kuririn meeting him for the first time.
-Trunks Special.
-Artificial Human arc kicks off with Trunks' message.
-During the Time-Skip, Alt. Movie 5. Gohan is slightly aged up, Vegeta is present, Piccolo kicks the shit out of Salza, Goku is SSJ from the get-go, and Cooler is powered and give Goku a much harder fight.
-AH arc continues from Time-Skip up until before Cell's appearance. Goku wakes up for an Alt. Movie 7, then falls ill again due to complications. (Ass-pull, I know, but this is one is particularly hard to fit.)
-AH arc continues up until Goku and Gohan's emergence from the RoSaT.
Get ready for the most eventful 10 days since the Namek arc.
-Alt. Movie 6. The Earth needs a new Kami. Kaio points Goku to New Namek, and discover that the Big Gete Star has taken over. Gohan participates a lot more. Goku and Vegeta plow through the Meta-Coolers but are eventually overwhelmed by their numbers. Ends the same way, but with Dende becoming Earth's Kami.
-Alt. Movie 8. Goku and Gohan are Super Saiyans the entire time.
-Alt. Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans. Goku and Gohan remain Super Saiyans the entire time.
-AH arc resumes and concludes.
-Movie 9.
-Otherworld Tournament Arc.
-Majin Buu arc kicks off with Gohan starting High School through the final stages of Videl learning how to fly.
-Alt. Movie 10 without the Shenlong being summoned.
-Buu arc continues through the end of the Tourmanent.
-Alt. Movie 11.
-Buu arc continues through Goku returning the the Otherworld
-Alt. Movie 12. Goku returns to the afterlife to find it in shambles a result of Janemba's actions. Events in the afterlife occur as they did in the movie, while those on Earth are ignored.
-Buu arc resumes up till right before the EoZ time-skip
-Alt. Movie 13 without the Time Machine.
-Heya! Son Goku and his Friends Return!!
-Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods - Extended Edition
-Ajay's Dragon Ball Z: Revival of F Super Cut combined with the Trunks Edition.
-Alt. Champa arc. Events are as they were in the anime up until Goku's fight with Hit. Things start out like manga up until he goes Blue, then they progress like they did in the anime.
-Pot-au-feu arc.
-Goku Black arc. Events during Trunks' encounter with Babidi and Dabra occur as they did in the manga.
-Super continues.
-End of Z time-skip, with the Kanzenban ending
-Dragon Ball GT.
-Dragon Ball Xenoverse.
-Dragon Ball Xenoverse 2.
-GT TV Special.[/spoiler]

[Zephyr]

You would say that since you don't get the crux of the argument. I, personally, am not confused by it. I've made that abundantly clear.

No, see, it was my initial understanding that you had understood what the concept meant. Refer to my first reply to you:

You've had the concept explained to you before. Several times. By several users. In painstaking detail. You even admitted that you understood what was meant by it.

...but then....

How have I not understood what people mean by it? Show me one single post where I was confused by this so-called concept.

Your incessant insistence that the term is non-sensical, and thus "has no meaning", makes it sound an awful lot like you simply don't understand what people mean when they use it.

My issue has and will always be that it's a silly term.

So then why are you barging in here and reminding everyone? What is your aim? What discussion value does pointing that out have? The thread isn't asking how people feel about the term itself. It would be like someone going into a thread about "what was this character's battle power?" to remind everyone how silly they find the word "battle power". Like, more power to you, I guess, but nobody asked who found what terms silly.

And if nobody is confused by the meaning of the term (and trust me: nobody is), then it being "silly" doesn't feel like an "issue" worth bringing up to anyone. But hey, maybe I'm wrong, maybe there are people who will ask "what's a headcanon and how do I make my own??", but I've never seen this happen. Asking what other people think that the official rights holders would recognize as canon (what is canon?) isn't such a confusion. Asking what other people would personally decree as canon had they the authority (what is your headcanon/personal canon?) isn't such a confusion.

Everyone participating in the latter exercise gets it. You now two times over admit that you get it. There is no confusion. Everyone knows that canon has to be officially recognized, and that's why the thread is asking for a hypothetical personal twist on it. There's not even anything inherently silly about that. It's a reasonable question that yields interesting discussion. If it's not for you, then maybe just don't enter the thread?

[ABED]

So then why are you barging in here and reminding everyone? What is your aim? What discussion value does pointing that out have? The thread isn't asking how people feel about the term itself. It would be like someone going into a thread about "what was this character's battle power?" to remind everyone how silly they find the word "battle power". Like, more power to you, I guess, but nobody asked who found what terms silly.

Battle power isn't a combination of contradictory terms.

(and trust me: nobody is),

Sorry, but I don't trust you.

Everyone knows that canon has to be officially recognized

Pure hyperbole as I've seen it far too many times to count where people do not understand that fact and partially because there are dumb terms like "head canon"

It seems that the people on here, insofar as they actually do understand what is meant by 'headcanon" like it simply because it's shorter than what they think canon should be, which I would consider as asinine reason to create such a term. It's almost like Crony Capitalism, there's no such thing. They are two opposing concepts.

Even you admit that you aren't confused by it, despite arguing that it's confusing.

I'm not confused, but it still qualifies as being confusing for the reasons stated.

[Anime Kitten]

It seems that the people on here, insofar as they actually do understand what is meant by 'headcanon" like it simply because it's shorter than what they think canon should be, which I would consider as asinine reason to create such a term.

Which would you prefer: "What I personally consider as canon" or "Headcanon"? I don't see the issue with the term. It's simply a representation of its meaning.