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For instance?The Artificial Human/Cell arc brought all of these recurring characters back and gave them relevance, and not just in a fighting capacity. They had good use of screentime from beginning to conclusion as each contributed in some form.
I don't think he did. Secondary characters always got plenty of focus in DB, and it's not about quantity, it's about quality.Toriyama changed his writing style to focus more on the secondary characters.
I'm not talking exclusively about a fighting lens. I'm talking about every single aspect.Super_Divine_Genki wrote:Relevance shouldn't be looked at under just a fighting lens.rereboy wrote:Falling much more into irrelevance is not the same as having no relevance at all.
Goten and Trunks get plenty of screen time, but it amounts to little beyond a few funny moments. Mr. Satan is the only one out of that list that I feel was utilized well and in a very surprising manner. He was given a great character arc.LuckyCat wrote:While some of the older cast falls out of relevance in the Buu arc, new support characters do become relevant. Goten and Trunks, and to a certain degree Mr. Satan and Dende all have important story roles.
Goten and Trunks get screwed over because Toriyama can't keep them straight, there are moments where they legitimately seem to want to take the thing seriously but he wants them to be the comedic duo (even as Gotenks) so Goten and Trunks wanting revenge on Boo doesn't mean anything for longer than a moment.ABED wrote:Goten and Trunks get plenty of screen time, but it amounts to little beyond a few funny moments. Mr. Satan is the only one out of that list that I feel was utilized well and in a very surprising manner. He was given a great character arc.LuckyCat wrote:While some of the older cast falls out of relevance in the Buu arc, new support characters do become relevant. Goten and Trunks, and to a certain degree Mr. Satan and Dende all have important story roles.
The secondary characters were all seen deliberating on how best to attempt to go about handling the Artificial Humans/Cell situation all while Goku was out of commission. Were they irrelevant in their actions during that long stretch? They did what they could.They didn't go hide and wait for Goku to wake up. They were being proactive while Piccolo was the most capable in battle, and even Yamucha helping to track down Imperfect Cell. Then it shifted when Vegeta and F.Trunks emerged. When Goku and Gohan had emerged from the RoSaT, along with also having Vegeta's and F.Trunks power to take on Perfect Cell, they didn't go into seclusion. They showed up in support knowing the potential high risks, and ended up even attempting to go down fighting. That's relevant enough for me. They remained present throughout.ABED wrote:For instance?The Artificial Human/Cell arc brought all of these recurring characters back and gave them relevance, and not just in a fighting capacity. They had good use of screentime from beginning to conclusion as each contributed in some form.
Yeah, they are just kind of there, but they don't amount to much and provide few great moments. The one stand out moments from the supporting characters is the filler moment where they try and help out even though they know it won't amount to much, but they do so because they love Goku and his son.They remained present throughout.
Yeah they do. If they aren't there, Dende's dead and Freeza probably gets his wish. Him or Vegeta. Surely one of them could've made someone talk. Even assuming they didn't get their wish, neither would the Earthlings. Piccolo and everyone else would've stayed dead. It's amazing you consider that padding, but not most of the Cell arc. Piccolo merges with Kami, but nothing comes of it. Without Piccolo, Kuririn and Gohan and Vegeta are dead. The arc begins with them going to Namek to wish their friends back. If they aren't there, they don't achieve that goal.Kuririn and Gohan had no relevancy on Namek if we're going to chalk it up to outcome.
You can do that without having 100 instances of "wow, we got a power up, shit, so did the bad guy". There are only so many times you can do that before it becomes redundant and not a good reversal. Their supposed different ways of approaching the big bad amounted to nothing. Cell was ultimately defeated the same way the others were - overwhelming force.The point was to show us why these characters and their world matter to eachother
The sheer number of them and the length of the arc. Besides Tenshinhan and Yajirobe did help out. Both saved Goku's life and Goku wouldn't have gotten to the top of Karin Tower without Yajirobe.how were their wasted efforts here any different than in any arc starting at Piccolo Daimao
Reversals can be good, but do it too much and becomes redundant and boring. Are you really claiming those same sort of efforts aren't present in the Freeza arc?I liked how the good guys efforts would bring them two steps forward, but then it would go three steps back against them
I don't consider it padding, I used that term in the context of final outcome. Freeza and Vegeta both were not getting their wish after the reveal of the language barrier by any means, so that side of it didn't matter. I'm not disputing that the events of the Namek arc amounted to nothing, because I know that gathering the DB's was the goal. Saving Dende was the key, I agree. Kuririn and Gohan's efforts on Namek had payoff. Piccolo and co. efforts during the Cell arc have to be taken into context. The threat level was too much for anyone to take on until a certain point, and the narrative ebbed and flowed along. I'm fine with their not being a heavy payoff with Piccolo and co. because it was about giving character moments, strengthening bonds, and taking into consideration the history that is there, otherwise they become cardboard to stick in the background. Yamucha was useful in removing Goku from harms way which led to a whole chain of events occurring from there. That small contribution directly impacted the final outcome way later down the line, as minor a blip that it seemed at the time (after Yamucha was near-death a short while before that).ABED wrote:It's amazing you consider that padding, but not most of the Cell arc.
In the short term, it directly had an impact on Cell's maneuvering and later led to Cell finding #17. Many actions that took place had an inadvertent negative effect, which was a bit different from previous arcs. And then Vegeta's actions added insult to injury on top of that which went in Cell's favor. Things spiraled out of control in spite of their efforts. A good example of "too many cooks in the kitchen". Cell took advantage of every little opportunity. The characters doing more harm for their cause than good is probably a major reason that many take issue with the narrative, but that's one of the strengths that I find about it. They were warned, became exponentially stronger, and things still turned out nearly as bad as the future timeline.Piccolo merges with Kami, but nothing comes of it.
I don't know how that it is held negatively against the Cell arc. There were more players involved to add some twists and keep things interesting. It wasn't any more overdone as it was with Freeza saying, "Well, I've got even more transformations than my first two. And, I've only been using ??% of my final forms full power. And if that all fails, I can blow up the planet and survive in space in partial physical state too". Piccolo and the Saiyajins getting powerups is not a bad thing, imo, and was presented dramatically. Piccolo's arc came full circle.You can do that without having 100 instances of "wow, we got a power up, shit, so did the bad guy". There are only so many times you can do that before it becomes redundant and not a good reversal.Their supposed different ways of approaching the big bad amounted to nothing. Cell was ultimately defeated the same way the others were - overwhelming force.
I think the Boo arc suffers more from that. I felt that the Cell arc had good balance, all things considered.Reversals can be good, but do it too much and becomes redundant and boring.
In the long term as well.In the short term
His reunion is little more than a power up. It's not really a character arc. His arc was complete when he gave his life to save Gohan. I agree that Freeza's transformations were overdone, but his ability to survive in the vacuum of space provided some drama as it was the source of his strategy to destroy the planet and live while his enemy dies.Piccolo's arc came full circle.
Everyone played a role, for better or worse, and to varying degree. Maybe not the definition of standout moment, but I was throwing Yamucha a cookie. He didn't need to be at the scene after being near-death a little bit before, but he shot over there anyway to inform everyone. It did amount to something, as well as the other characters (Kuririn, F.Trunks) helping to relocate out-of-commission Goku. The element of an outside plot device (the Dragon Balls) to aid a characters relevancy wasn't an option -- the threat(s) were being confronted directly, all while keeping Goku out of the way. He had always come through, now it was their turn to pull some weight in what ever way they could. What mattered was the history between them and their use in the plot, which re-enforced comradery in dire situations in an arc that was more complicated than previous arcs. It was an ongoing part of that narrative until the conclusion. You can't simply remove them completely (Bulma included) and allow the arc to play out as is.ABED wrote:I don't think the character moments you are talking about in the Cell arc were there as much as you say nor did they amount to much.
The Earth Dragon Balls were lost in the process as well. They went all in with that gamble at a time when there was little to no certainty.His reunion is little more than a power up. It's not really a character arc.
It didn't. If it did, I think you are lowering the bar for important moments. Why do you consider moving Goku or taking him off the battlefield such important moments? Compare those to how Piccolo, Gohan, and Kuririn were used in the Saiyan arc and none of them survive. In the Cell arc, any of the characters could've moved Goku and nothing would've changed. The moments you mentioned are so small they are practically insignificant.It did amount to something
No, but it was a nice reversal/false finish when Freeza is still alive.There was no payoff with the Genki-dama
Fair point, but one that was VERY easily rectified and not some great cause for concern. If Piccolo doesn't fuse with Kami the arc still plays out the same way. Cell still reaches his perfect form.The Earth Dragon Balls were lost in the process as well.
ABED wrote:Goten and Trunks get plenty of screen time, but it amounts to little beyond a few funny moments. Mr. Satan is the only one out of that list that I feel was utilized well and in a very surprising manner. He was given a great character arc.LuckyCat wrote:While some of the older cast falls out of relevance in the Buu arc, new support characters do become relevant. Goten and Trunks, and to a certain degree Mr. Satan and Dende all have important story roles.
Maybe this is a little hypocritical, I don't know, but it grinds my gears that the artificial separation of DB has lead to DB vs. DBZ debates. It's all DB and I don't think DBZ changes things any more than DB changed things throughout its run.
It's not a Kanzenshuu-only problem, but it's more prevalent on here nowadays without a doubt. When you have an argument, many who disagree will either reiterate their opinion without bothering to address your points, or the version of your argument they respond too is so ridiculously distorted that there's no way you can expect them to talk about anything in good faith. When this happens, it's like... How old are you? If you literally don't even know how to discuss properly, why are you even here?Alruneia wrote:When you try to explain something to someone, but you just end up in a pseudo-argument where your explanation is utterly ignored (probably not even read all the way through). This isn't a Dragon Ball-specific problem, and I haven't seen it happen much here on Kanzenshuu, but I just went through it somewhere else about the Super Saiyan forms, specifically the difference between Ascended/Grade 2 and Ultra/Grade 3.
The initial claim was that Grade 2 and Grade 3 are the same thing, and as a response, I pointed to several statements and facts from the story that shows that there is a difference between the two forms. (the speed issues; Trunks' power-ups against Cell and Goku powering up in the time chamber, which were both shown as multi-step processes in the anime; and finally the fact that Trunks understood that Vegeta had held off on Grade 3 because he knew of its drawbacks) And as a response... I practically just got the initial claim reposted at me. Great. Thanks.
I will add more to this, the people who are obsessed over a particular character and refuse to listen any arguments, thoughts or facts against them..Alruneia wrote:When you try to explain something to someone, but you just end up in a pseudo-argument where your explanation is utterly ignored (probably not even read all the way through). This isn't a Dragon Ball-specific problem, and I haven't seen it happen much here on Kanzenshuu, but I just went through it somewhere else about the Super Saiyan forms, specifically the difference between Ascended/Grade 2 and Ultra/Grade 3.
The initial claim was that Grade 2 and Grade 3 are the same thing, and as a response, I pointed to several statements and facts from the story that shows that there is a difference between the two forms. (the speed issues; Trunks' power-ups against Cell and Goku powering up in the time chamber, which were both shown as multi-step processes in the anime; and finally the fact that Trunks understood that Vegeta had held off on Grade 3 because he knew of its drawbacks) And as a response... I practically just got the initial claim reposted at me. Great. Thanks.
