GT or Super? Which one is the best?

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I think it goes well being just the noses. I'm certainly not an expert on the art and craft of illustration, so I may have a hard time trying to articulate what precisely I dislike about it. But, to take a stab at it: The lighting and shading look random and weird; everyone looks bloated, plastic, and glossy. I might just be biased toward the Maeda and 90's Yamamuro, who knows. Could just be me.

Here's some good required reading on the matter, from posters far more knowledgeable of and qualified to accurately articulate the reasons behind the difference in the art quality.

Some comparison pics, to aid in illustrating the distinction I'm trying to explain:
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I agree with everything you've said here, but there's not much I can point to in the newer drawing to say "This is bad". It's just lifeless, slightly disproportionate, though not in a jarring way, and overshaded. Like I've said, I don't like the evolution DB has undergone, and I think it makes the entire show infinitely less interesting.

[TheMikado]

I agree that older Dragon Ball looks more pleasing aesthetically, but using Super as a reference to say modern Dragon Ball is visually boring is flawed.

Not at all. It's boring in comparison to its former self, it's boring in comparison to other modern shonen, and it's boring in comparison to anime as a whole. Moreover, I don't even need to make those comparisons, because I could just look at Super, give a nice, wet, 30 second yawn, and my point is proven.

Unless there's some other modern Dragon Ball anime that I'm not aware of, it's perfectly valid.

No you really can't. Super was plagued with almost no product time. Which in-turn hurt the visuals of the show immensely, not just only were the visuals hurt. The lack of preproduction caused a ripple effect among all other aspects of production to sound, storyboarding, directing, and writing. Making everything else almost play catchup, I doubt you would be saying Super looks boring if mostly every single episode that aired wasn't rushed. Also, I don't agree with you saying it's boring compared to modern anime in all. It seems your just going off the deep end now, most modern anime look akin to Super. Flat and shiny- the only difference is that most anime had preproduction time-while Super didn't.

So it really does suck and not the show we actually deserved. I don't see what's wrong with saying fans would like a well made show which isn't rush. Just like I would like a nice car that actually reliable and well made or a home where the roof doesn't leak due to poor craftsmanship. We don't have to like it just because its Dragonball and it should be held to the same standards of everything else. You yourself just listed a ton of things that suffered due to the preproduction so I fail to see how you have helped your case.

[Godszgift]

I'm enjoying the new super arc but honestly gt was better written

[SaiyanGod117]

So it really does suck and not the show we actually deserved. I don't see what's wrong with saying fans would like a well made show which isn't rush. Just like I would like a nice car that actually reliable and well made or a home where the roof doesn't leak due to poor craftsmanship. We don't have to like it just because its Dragonball and it should be held to the same standards of everything else. You yourself just listed a ton of things that suffered due to the preproduction so I fail to see how you have helped your case.

What are you even talking about? Did you even the read the previous comments? I listed those things to show that Super isn't anywhere near a perfect example of how modern Dragon Ball looks or would look. Super is a haphazardly produce show, using that as a reference or crutch to say modern Dragon Ball looks boring is misleading and just plain out misguided. When their are other examples of modern Dragon Ball media that are visually engaging and appealing. It would be like using Fairy Tail as representative to say that shounen manga can't tell good and coherent stories. I never said anything about liking show, please show where I ever said that. As a matter of fact, I berate the show pretty much every episode because of its writing quality,( and visuals) however we are not taking about writing quality or whether you like the show are not. We are talking about visuals and using a haphazardly, unorganized, or in general messy product to represent one medium, genre, or category as a whole is faulty.

[Ki Breaker]

I'm enjoying the new super arc but honestly gt was better written

Gt was better written?
Gt executed every concept horribly, it's given as an example for poor execution..

I don't know what better writing means to you but if it's meant to cleverly execute concepts and helping connect with characters, gt is the opposite of it..

[Generico Garbagio]

evolution DB

My quote might be selective but you're just asking for crap when you use those words together.

We can all be thankful GT and Super are not live action movies made by Hollywood. If you compare GT to that, IT'S A MASTERPIECE.

[VDenter]

Super movie recaps aside (which are terrible) has managed to be more enjoyable for me than even the entire Cell arc and most of the later Freeza arc. So i guess it wins over GT which i dont find to be good at all. intriguing concepts and good animation can only take you so far when the story itself is just bad.

[Godszgift]

I'm enjoying the new super arc but honestly gt was better written

Gt was better written?
Gt executed every concept horribly, it's given as an example for poor execution..

I don't know what better writing means to you but if it's meant to cleverly execute concepts and helping connect with characters, gt is the opposite of it..

Gt was poorly written too. Both shows are. My main problem with super is the complete negligence of dbz's power scaling. The retcon with Beerus telling Frieza to destroy planet vegeta might be a minor nitpick to some, but I also hate how they snuck that in to Super, which made Frieza's villainous intent much less malicious and brutal as he was initially.

[Sailor Haumea]

They're both hit and miss, but GT hits more than it misses, while Super misses more than it hits. Super can't have any massive paradigm shifts because it's set itself in the timeskip, whereas GT didn't restrict itself like that. The events in GT can actually have consequences, whereas with Super the status quo must be maintained the entire time. There's no suspense for the main characters. Gohan in peril? We already know he'll live. Universe 7 at risk? Again, not really, since we know they're alive by the time of EoZ.

[hectorgf]

I'm enjoying the new super arc but honestly gt was better written

Gt was better written?
Gt executed every concept horribly, it's given as an example for poor execution.

I don't know what better writing means to you but if it's meant to cleverly execute concepts and helping connect with characters, gt is the opposite of it..

GT is pretty bad.
But Super doesn't have any story, is just a bunch of fan services mixed together.
Seriously, Super distunes all the Z "essence", and it's identical to a fanfic. Look at it: "super saiyan red and blue, evil goku, super saiyan "rosé", a female Broly, Freeza returns with a golden form, Freeza from another universe, Trunks's spirit bomb sword and the second return of Freeza."

And the narrative is just awful. There's some bullshit or incoherence in every single episode. There's no character development, the only ones who get a little bit of it, it was Krillin and Gohan, but the execution was so bad, that I think they're worse than the ones that didn't get a character development.

Gohan has a great conflict in RoF arc: he abanded the fights, but he notices that he needs to train to be able to protect his family, friends, and the world whenever they need, and them he start training with Piccolo again (what I think it's another incoherence. He doesn't need Piccolo anymore since the cell saga), but then, they just throw it away, and his character returns to his old nerd version. The episode that Gohan unleashes his power is just a repetition of it.
Same with Krillin, his conflict in that Island with Goku was just like the same thing that he had in episode 16. Just another repetition.

Oh, and Super has A LOT of more incoherences, Deus Ex, and bullshit than GT (I never thought any series would beat GT).
They repeated the same resource of "Oh, I forgot it in the past" in Black saga TWICE.
They made Trunks learn Mafuba watching a video, in FIVE MINUTES. This is the worst planned scene I've ever seen.
Super Saiyan Rage, The plot armor that Trunks and Mai got, Krillin and Goku getting hurt by a shot...

And the worst fault of the series: the flanderization.
Every character was ruined, mainly Goku.

GT flanderizes Goku when he is in his kid form, but when he is in super saiyan 4, then he is just like the original.
Vegeta is very good at this show too, at least in the final arc.

[SaintEvolution]

I'm enjoying the new super arc but honestly gt was better written

Gt was better written?
Gt executed every concept horribly, it's given as an example for poor execution.

I don't know what better writing means to you but if it's meant to cleverly execute concepts and helping connect with characters, gt is the opposite of it..

GT is pretty bad.
But Super doesn't have any story, is just a bunch of fan services mixed together.
Seriously, Super distunes all the Z "essence", and it's identical to a fanfic. Look at it: "super saiyan red and blue, evil goku, super saiyan "rosé", a female Broly, Freeza returns with a golden form, Freeza from another universe, Trunks's spirit bomb sword and the second return of Freeza."

And the narrative is just awful. There's some bullshit or incoherence in every single episode. There's no character development, the only ones who get a little bit of it, it was Krillin and Gohan, but the execution was so bad, that I think they're worse than the ones that didn't get a character development.

Gohan has a great conflict in RoF arc: he abanded the fights, but he notices that he needs to train to be able to protect his family, friends, and the world whenever they need, and them he start training with Piccolo again (what I think it's another incoherence. He doesn't need Piccolo anymore since the cell saga), but then, they just throw it away, and his character returns to his old nerd version. The episode that Gohan unleashes his power is just a repetition of it.
Same with Krillin, his conflict in that Island with Goku was just like the same thing that he had in episode 16. Just another repetition.

Oh, and Super has A LOT of more incoherences, Deus Ex, and bullshit than GT (I never thought any series would beat GT).
They repeated the same resource of "Oh, I forgot it in the past" in Black saga TWICE.
They made Trunks learn Mafuba watching a video, in FIVE MINUTES. This is the worst planned scene I've ever seen.
Super Saiyan Rage, The plot armor that Trunks and Mai got, Krillin and Goku getting hurt by a shot...

And the worst fault of the series: the flanderization.
Every character was ruined, mainly Goku.

GT flanderizes Goku when he is in his kid form, but when he is in super saiyan 4, then he is just like the original.
Vegeta is very good at this show too, at least in the final arc.

I don't think that an idea being similar to a fanfic is exactly a problem. Good ideas can come out from fanfics. The main question probably maybe be the execution of the ideas, but not them in themselves.

Also, excepting the critics about RoF arc, Goku's flanderization and the general pacing for the first 20 or 30 episodes, I don't see real big problems in the points that you quoted here. The Mafuba stuff for example, we can deduce that Mafuba is not exactly a hard technique to learn, and since Trunks is a half Saiyan and way more strong that Roshi, that originally used it, I don't think it's a big deal to him for have learned Mafuba in that way.

Also, most of Dragon Ball Super's fanservice don't exactly make incoherences, excepting again for the Golden Frieza arc. They are most references to the original series, like Goku's instant transmission Kamehameha in the fight with Toppo, or Vegetto in the fight with Merged Zamasu.. and I know, that fight was short and disapointing, but didn't created any noticiable incoherece.

Well, Dragon Ball Super is far from be excellent. Actually is a problematic series, but I can't see it as worse than Dragon Ball GT in concepts and script.

[hectorgf]

I don't think that an idea being similar to a fanfic is exactly a problem. Good ideas can come out from fanfics. The main question probably maybe be the execution of the ideas, but not them in themselves.

Also, excepting the critics about RoF arc, Goku's flanderization and the general pacing for the first 20 or 30 episodes, I don't see real big problems in the points that you quoted here. The Mafuba stuff for example, we can deduce that Mafuba is not exactly a hard technique to learn, and since Trunks is a half Saiyan and way more strong that Roshi, that originally used it, I don't think it's a big deal to him for have learned Mafuba in that way.

Also, most of Dragon Ball Super's fanservice don't exactly make incoherences, excepting again for the Golden Frieza arc. They are most references to the original series, like Goku's instant transmission Kamehameha in the fight with Toppo, or Vegetto in the fight with Merged Zamasu.. and I know, that fight was short and disapointing, but didn't created any noticiable incoherece.

Well, Dragon Ball Super is far from be excellent. Actually is a problematic series, but I can't see it as worse than Dragon Ball GT in concepts and script.

It was just an example that they aren't focusing on producing a new story, they're just putting fan service behind fan service.

In the case of Mafuuba, you are just creating an explanation that they didn't give it to us to justify their poor writing. There's no foreshadowing, they just took a Piccolo video out from nowhere, and they made Trunks learning that, and mastered that right in time. It's too convenient. It's obvious that it wasn't planned. It wasn't a prepared idea.

I didn't say that the fanservices make incoherences, it's just a signal of poor writing and creative capacity. I think every -or almost every- episode of Dragon Ball Super has an incoherence or a big bullshit. GT needs to eat too much vegetables to reach Super in the matter of writing.

Oh, and these fanservices of references are pretty bad too. They simply don't have any idea of how to make a fanservice.

Every reference is too obvious, they basically slap it on your face, it's like "Hey, look, remember that scene!? We're doing it again! Look! Look! It's like that time in the past".

One good fanservice that I remembered in Dragon Ball Super, it was in episode 16, when Vegeta is trying to cook, and the ingredients on his side are the original stuff that inspired the name of Ginyu Tokusentai's members. It was subtle, clever, and it wasn't even the focus of the scene.

On the other hand, they made Tenshin use Shiyouken against Kame sennin. Tenshinhan doesn't even have to use a lot of strength to beat him, he is way much stronger, there wasn't necessary to use that attack, even more because he abanded that technique.

[SaintEvolution]

I don't think that an idea being similar to a fanfic is exactly a problem. Good ideas can come out from fanfics. The main question probably maybe be the execution of the ideas, but not them in themselves.

Also, excepting the critics about RoF arc, Goku's flanderization and the general pacing for the first 20 or 30 episodes, I don't see real big problems in the points that you quoted here. The Mafuba stuff for example, we can deduce that Mafuba is not exactly a hard technique to learn, and since Trunks is a half Saiyan and way more strong that Roshi, that originally used it, I don't think it's a big deal to him for have learned Mafuba in that way.

Also, most of Dragon Ball Super's fanservice don't exactly make incoherences, excepting again for the Golden Frieza arc. They are most references to the original series, like Goku's instant transmission Kamehameha in the fight with Toppo, or Vegetto in the fight with Merged Zamasu.. and I know, that fight was short and disapointing, but didn't created any noticiable incoherece.

Well, Dragon Ball Super is far from be excellent. Actually is a problematic series, but I can't see it as worse than Dragon Ball GT in concepts and script.

It was just an example that they aren't focusing on producing a new story, they're just putting fan service behind fan service.

In the case of Mafuuba, you are just creating an explanation that they didn't give it to us to justify their poor writing. There's no foreshadowing, they just took a Piccolo video out from nowhere, and they made Trunks learning that, and mastered that right in time. It's too convenient. It's obvious that it wasn't planned. It wasn't a prepared idea.

I didn't say that the fanservices make incoherences, it's just a signal of poor writing and creative capacity. I think every -or almost every- episode of Dragon Ball Super has an incoherence or a big bullshit. GT needs to eat too much vegetables to reach Super in the matter of writing.

Oh, and these fanservices of references are pretty bad too. They simply don't have any idea of how to make a fanservice.

Every reference is too obvious, they basically slap it on your face, it's like "Hey, look, remember that scene!? We're doing it again! Look! Look! It's like that time in the past".

One good fanservice that I remembered in Dragon Ball Super, it was in episode 16, when Vegeta is trying to cook, and the ingredients on his side are the original stuff that inspired the name of Ginyu Tokusentai's members. It was subtle, clever, and it wasn't even the focus of the scene.

On the other hand, they made Tenshin use Shiyouken against Kame sennin. Tenshinhan doesn't even have to use a lot of strength to beat him, he is way much stronger, there wasn't necessary to use that attack, even more because he abanded that technique.

Well, Dragon Ball already have a universe and a logic inside it. Even if that logic isn't great, there are possible explanations for things like Trunks learning the Mafuba so fast as he did. Foreshadowing is not always necessary.

Also, can you list all or most of those episodical incoherences or big bullshits? Cause I don't remember of them being in every episode, really.

And, the "how to make a fanservice stuff" it seems to me more a personal thing than a problem. I really liked when, as the example I used before, Goku used the instant transmission Kamehameha on Toppo. It was obvious, but didn't affected the story, or the storytelling, or anything like it. It was just a reference that you can ignore or not.
Being honest, the only one that I think it passed the limit was that Genki-dama Sword Trunks used to defeat Merged Zamasu. That was purely based in the "power of friendship and humanbeing hopes", without many logical explanations even in the Dragon Ball universe. But well, even the original series did a few crap or weird stuff like that before. And I'm not counting GT or the old movies on that.

[ABED]

How is Goku's teleport Kamehameha considered fanservice?

[Lord Beerus]

How is Goku's teleport Kamehameha considered fanservice?

I'd honestly say the only technique thrown into Super that felt fanservice-y was SSJB Vegetto's Final Kamehameha.

[Kanassa]

How is Goku's teleport Kamehameha considered fanservice?

I'd honestly say the only technique thrown into Super that felt fanservice-y was SSJB Vegetto's Final Kamehameha.

I would say the Father-Son Galick Gun could be considered fan service, but then again, aside from it being a Father-Son combo on a signature move (Though in this instance, Vegeta is literally firing the Galick Gun as well, unlike in the Cell arc where Goku's presence was more metaphorical) it's not really that similar to the father-son Kamehameha and isn't even shot similarly

[PsionicWarrior]

^I actually think there is a lot of fan-service in Super, but I'm certainly not complaining about it.

[ABED]

There's no true definition of fanservice, but stuff like a father-son combo of a popular move doesn't strike me as fanservice, or at least of the negative variety. Bad fanservice is "Hey look, it's 3PO and R2 in Rogue One!"

[ekrolo2]

There's no true definition of fanservice, but stuff like a father-son combo of a popular move doesn't strike me as fanservice, or at least of the negative variety. Bad fanservice is "Hey look, it's 3PO and R2 in Rogue One!"

Not as bad as the Ep4 cantina thugs being in it

[ABED]

There's no true definition of fanservice, but stuff like a father-son combo of a popular move doesn't strike me as fanservice, or at least of the negative variety. Bad fanservice is "Hey look, it's 3PO and R2 in Rogue One!"

Not as bad as the Ep4 cantina thugs being in it

Forgot about that.