Fan Service

[ABED]

That Vader scene was awful. Why didn't he use the Force to stop everyone in place and pull back the data rod before that guy got so far? It wasn't exactly that long of a corridor. Par for the course for a film so wrapped up in its narrative it never takes the time to develop its characters, though.

This feels like the equivalent to a power level debate. I didn't see any problem in what he did. Him going through the rebels like butter was pretty friggin awesome, it's just that scenes like that and seeing R2 and 3PO in the movie didn't add anything to the narrative. And I don't think the film was wrapped up in the narrative. Characters are part of the narrative. I just think it was too wrapped up in being a film for long time fans of the series instead of just being a good story, which is what bothers me about what feels like a trend in pop culture. The reasons I fell in love with DB and Star Wars was because of the fun stories and characters, not moments that called back to things I already enjoyed. That's the flipside of fanservice.

[Doctor.]

Yeah, fusion existed since Super's beginning, but it's easy to cut it some slack. And the theory about having Boo absorb Vegetto is good, except it could also be presented that the characters aren't really sure of all the factors leading up to Vegetto's diffusing, so taking a chance on that is pretty high-stakes.

But I don't particularly care about Vegetto being in Super; I'm just thinking that they might have gone all-out already. In the very least, Goku and Vegeta are so much more powerful than they were in Z, but I don't see them ever catching up to Vegetto's power now that he had his Super incarnation. The series is kind of all about power escalation.

Regardless, I just hope that it was executed nicely for when I watch it. I still think that it's no coincidence that Vegetto made an appearance instead of figuring out another way to win against Zamasu. I do firmly believe that the decision to throw Vegetto in there was due to his popularity among the fans (to tie it back up to the thread).

I don't see how you can cut it some slack. The characters could easily abuse the fusion and they don't do it. Just like the other characters could try to learn the Kaioken or Instant Transmission and don't do so. It's all just very convenient to forget about because Toriyama/the writers don't want to fill in the holes or provide explanations.

Again, a villain can still be treated as a threat without being the greatest thing ever. Goku and Vegeta are unlikely to surpass even Beerus by the time the series finishes.

Vegetto had almost no impact in Zamasu's defeat, so he was definitely there for fanservice, I'm not arguing against that. I'm arguing against the notion that future fights will be tensionless because they can fuse. No, it's the other way around, previous fights were tensionless because they could fuse, future fights won't be because fusion is no longer as useful as it once was.

[SaiyanGod117]

Bringing in Big Tits and ass is not going to somehow up the quality of Dragon Ball or its women. I'm actually happy Dragon Ball barely has any of that, what's the point of bringing it in. So kids can take off some stress later?

[TheGreatness25]

I don't see how you can cut it some slack. The characters could easily abuse the fusion and they don't do it. Just like the other characters could try to learn the Kaioken or Instant Transmission and don't do so. It's all just very convenient to forget about because Toriyama/the writers don't want to fill in the holes or provide explanations.

I can cut it slack because it's a brand new series and from almost the very beginning, the main characters are much more powerful than they were in Z. As for the other characters not learning Kaio-ken nor Instantaneous Movement... well... they're not exactly written to mean much, huh? I really wish the human characters got more rub.

Goku and Vegeta are unlikely to surpass even Beerus by the time the series finishes.

Highly doubtful. I would bet that Goku surpasses Beerus. My prediction is that Goku (and maybe Vegeta) surpass Beerus and Whis, the final villain will be more powerful than Whis, and you know who is going to defeat that final villain. That's just the way the Dragon Ball series works. I have no particular problem with this scenario. I know that all of the "Goku Time" non-fans are going to have a hard time with a scenario like this.

Vegetto had almost no impact in Zamasu's defeat, so he was definitely there for fanservice, I'm not arguing against that. I'm arguing against the notion that future fights will be tensionless because they can fuse. No, it's the other way around, previous fights were tensionless because they could fuse, future fights won't be because fusion is no longer as useful as it once was.

Goku and Vegeta aren't about to do the fusion dance because of its shortcomings and they wouldn't want to do the Potara fusion because it's supposedly permanent. It's not like they want to be stuck together forever. It's a good reason to keep them away from using it. Don't forget that neither Goku nor Vegeta actually wanted to use this fusion; they had to as a last resort against a villain that would cripple everything and could easily topple them. It's made to feel like a very difficult decision that they make to fuse against Boo, not something to be taken lightly that they do whenever they feel like it. So I don't think that this affected the tension of the fights before Zamasu.

In either event, you and I agree with my point that Vegetto was fan service in Super. That's all I meant lol When I listed the thing with Burdock, future Trunks, and Vegetto, I never said that they were a bad thing. Maybe the execution was great. But the fact that they were sprinkled in there, in my opinion, was for fan service.

[Merged Zamasu]

the final villain will be more powerful than Whis,

Keep in mind we've already had a villain more powerful or very close to surpassing Whis. Many statements from the main characters heavily imply that Merged Zamasu had managed to surpass Whis (and Beerus). I have already explained many times (with proofs from the show) that Merged Zamasu had no doubt reached Whis and Beerus' level, so i will not do that yet again. Ouch, the truth hurts, doesn't it?

and you know who is going to defeat that final villain.

[TheGreatness25]

Alls I'm-a sayin' is that I have a sneaky suspicion that a certain main character whose name rhymes with "Koku" is going to be the most powerful thing by the end of the series.

[Doctor.]

I can cut it slack because it's a brand new series and from almost the very beginning, the main characters are much more powerful than they were in Z. As for the other characters not learning Kaio-ken nor Instantaneous Movement... well... they're not exactly written to mean much, huh? I really wish the human characters got more rub.

Sure, the human characters never meant much, but Piccolo was relevant until halfway through the Cell arc. He could have easily kept up with the Saiyan improvements if he had gotten Kaioken.

Highly doubtful. I would bet that Goku surpasses Beerus. My prediction is that Goku (and maybe Vegeta) surpass Beerus and Whis, the final villain will be more powerful than Whis, and you know who is going to defeat that final villain. That's just the way the Dragon Ball series works. I have no particular problem with this scenario. I know that all of the "Goku Time" non-fans are going to have a hard time with a scenario like this.

I don't know how far you are into Super but you at least don't seem to be caught up to the Zamasu arc. Every time Goku and Vegeta improve, Beerus keeps being portrayed as massively stronger than the two of them, let alone Whis, Vados, the Grand Priest, the Omni-Kings and all the other people who are much stronger than Goku at this point. So, I really don't see Goku becoming the strongest when he's not even in the top 10 right now. He wasn't even the strongest in Z, he wasn't even top 5.

Goku and Vegeta aren't about to do the fusion dance because of its shortcomings and they wouldn't want to do the Potara fusion because it's supposedly permanent. It's not like they want to be stuck together forever. It's a good reason to keep them away from using it. Don't forget that neither Goku nor Vegeta actually wanted to use this fusion; they had to as a last resort against a villain that would cripple everything and could easily topple them. It's made to feel like a very difficult decision that they make to fuse against Boo, not something to be taken lightly that they do whenever they feel like it. So I don't think that this affected the tension of the fights before Zamasu.

In either event, you and I agree with my point that Vegetto was fan service in Super. That's all I meant lol When I listed the thing with Burdock, future Trunks, and Vegetto, I never said that they were a bad thing. Maybe the execution was great. But the fact that they were sprinkled in there, in my opinion, was for fan service.

Again, I feel like there's no shortcoming to the Potara the moment the befriended Boo. They could also just try their luck with the Dragon Balls, as well (which Super confirmed can defuse the Potara. Even if they couldn't, the Super Dragon Balls definitely would be able to).

[ABED]

He could have easily kept up with the Saiyan improvements if he had gotten Kaioken.

He was only on Kaio's world for a couple days and Kaio-ken is transient.

[sintzu]

To me that was the worst part of the movie. Vegeta was just beating up, an exhausted weaker opponent. That moment just honest to god pissed me off.

At least Super made it better by having Goku lose to Freeza and him losing his strength on his own instead of Goku beating it out of him.

[JulieYBM]

This feels like the equivalent to a power level debate. I didn't see any problem in what he did. Him going through the rebels like butter was pretty friggin awesome, it's just that scenes like that and seeing R2 and 3PO in the movie didn't add anything to the narrative. And I don't think the film was wrapped up in the narrative. Characters are part of the narrative. I just think it was too wrapped up in being a film for long time fans of the series instead of just being a good story, which is what bothers me about what feels like a trend in pop culture. The reasons I fell in love with DB and Star Wars was because of the fun stories and characters, not moments that called back to things I already enjoyed. That's the flipside of fanservice.

I wouldn't be so hard on the scene if it wasn't both following a terrible film and undercutting the only good thing about the film: all of its characters die. Folks like to say tits and ass are the fan service that ruin films but the Vader and Leia scenes undercut the ending of Rogue One more than any television series or film I can possibly think of. Sure, the very prequel nature of the film in some respects does completely undercut the film, but you shouldn't be following up the complete death of your core cast with rah-rah scenes like Rogue One did.

The narrative--and worse yet, the narrative of a 'cinematic universe'--is literally the one certain the film serves. Every scene is about pushing the history of its world or advancing its plot. That might work if your actors are in sync...but they weren't in sync at all. World-building has become this cancerous crutch that now defines the quality of a film because the film is now only a commercial for a larger product. That inherently wouldn't be so bad if there was an actual individualistic voice coming out of the film, but every corner of the film feels like it was made by committee. Or its staff just has fucking awful taste (the first musical cue of the film was a major red flag moment).

[sintzu]

I actually think the Freeza movie is a good example of fan service because as I mentioned it's all self contained, the film never takes itself seriously and is aware of what it is.

The problem is that it made Freeza look worse than he already was.

[kinisking]

It seems weird to complain about fan service considering we're the fans. Don't we want to be pleased? Super is basically fan service in and outside of itself. It has no reason to exist besides for the fans wanting new dragonball.

I actually think the Freeza movie is a good example of fan service because as I mentioned it's all self contained, the film never takes itself seriously and is aware of what it is.

The problem is that it made Freeza look worse than he already was.

I'd argue he was treated better in ROF than in the cell arc where he got decimated by Trunks. At least here he shows his potential, gets a more even fight, outwits vegeta, and only loses because of hax.

[ABED]

I wouldn't be so hard on the scene if it wasn't both following a terrible film and undercutting the only good thing about the film: all of its characters die.

It is one of the only good things. Maybe it undercuts that, I don't know, but it was badass and one of the few things that didn't make it feel like a complete waste of time. However, what it did end up doing is remind me of why I like Darth Vader and Star Wars instead of making me like R1. The Leia scene fit the narrative, but it was distracting because of the CG. I think you miss the point of the main cast's death. They died for something, so the "ra ra scene" as you call it fits. Whether the sentiment lands is another question.

Every scene is about pushing the history of its world or advancing its plot.

Every scene should be advancing the plot.

That inherently wouldn't be so bad if there was an actual individualistic voice coming out of the film, but every corner of the film feels like it was made by committee.

That doesn't feel like that at all. It feels more like a film made by a fan who is a fan first, storyteller second. I don't think he has much work to his name beyond Godzilla and it shows.

It seems weird to complain about fan service considering we're the fans. Don't we want to be pleased?

Yes, by stories and characters, not mere callbacks to moments, characters, or movies we liked before. It often only serves to remind me that I liked something else.

It has no reason to exist besides for the fans wanting new dragonball.

Which doesn't stop it from giving us something new and pushing forward the story.

[sintzu]

Not remotely fanservice, just uncreative.

The uncreativity came with Super, Z relied on one look for the Freeza and Cell arcs and when we got new forms in the Buu arc and GT they were more than Ssj1 with a different hair color. you don't have to like Ssj3 & 4 but at least they had a different look to them that made them feel as strong as they were described.

I'd argue he was treated better in ROF than in the cell arc where he got decimated by Trunks. At least here he shows his potential, gets a more even fight, outwits vegeta, and only loses because of hax.

He made the same exact mistake he made on Namek, he took on a form that his body couldn't handle and it cost him the fight, it showed that he learned nothing from his fight on Namek.

In terms of his fights, in the movie he was completely humiliated by Goku in both of them which made bringing him back and powering him up seem even more of a waste than it was. Thankfully Super fixed that by having him be equal to Goku in his 1st fight and completely ahead of him in his 2nd fight. Vegeta's fight was also a waste in the movie cause it was short and he was just beating up Goku's left overs while in Super he was the only one to beat him up which gave it a lot more weight than it had in the movie cause up to that point in Super Freeza was in control of everything.

[Ki Breaker]

Are we talking the sexual kind?

We've seen 16 year old Bulma's ass and breasts in Dragonball. Wake me up when we see 40+ year old Bulma's ass and boobs in Super.

Can we please have that toie?

[Baggie_Saiyan]

I actually think the Freeza movie is a good example of fan service because as I mentioned it's all self contained, the film never takes itself seriously and is aware of what it is.

The problem is that it made Freeza look worse than he already was.

Depends on what you define as "worse". For me Freeza was the focal point of the humour, bringing Freeza back there was no way he was gonna carry the weight he had pre-getting sliced by Trunks, so them going the route they did was the best they could have gone in my opinion.

[sintzu]

Them going the route they did was the best they could have gone in my opinion.

Was it better than introducing a completely new character ? if the point of the movie is to be a standalone story then why not introduce a standalone character like the old movies ?

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Them going the route they did was the best they could have gone in my opinion.

Was it better than introducing a completely new character ? if the point of the movie is to be a standalone story then why not introduce a standalone character like the old movies ?

Oh I completely agree but I meant with the premise of Freeza coming back that's the best route could have gone in, in terms of how the character was handled.

[sintzu]

Oh I completely agree but I meant with the premise of Freeza coming back that's the best route could have gone in, in terms of how the character was handled.

It could've been a lot better.

They could've had Goku save Vegeta from the planet's destruction and instead fo Whis rewinding time Beerus' could've used that as a way to get Goku and Vegeta to fight in Champa's tournament, the universe that wins gets their earth back.

That would've given the torunament a lot more weight cause the stakes would've been a lot higher than they were.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Oh I completely agree but I meant with the premise of Freeza coming back that's the best route could have gone in, in terms of how the character was handled.

It could've been a lot better.

They could've had Goku save Vegeta from the planet's destruction and instead fo Whis rewinding time Beerus' could've used that as a way to get Goku and Vegeta to fight in Champa's tournament, the universe that wins gets their earth back.

That would've given the torunament a lot more weight cause the stakes would've been a lot higher than they were.

I'm not saying the plot was great or anything just that they handled Freeza well. Problem with your particular ending was the future of the franchise was unkown, however in Super that's a different story the whole premise has a lot more potential as a series rather than a movie so they really should have stripped the entire plot of the movie and start from scratch, it was totally pointless to have only the middle change while keeping the beginning and end of the arc 1:1 with the movie.