Modern Dragon Ball needs to stop throwing Goku and his family under a bus.

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Re: Modern Dragon Ball needs to stop throwing Goku and his family under a bus.

Post by kinisking » Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:47 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:I'm actually getting kinda tired of of whole "Goku is an idiot" label that people have been slapping on Super with his characterisation. Goku at his core is a battle loving manchild. While the anime adaption of the Z portion of the manga certainly adds more on Goku's mindset the make his seem like less of battle maniac, in the manga, he's a full blown blood knight that doesn't show that many social skill. Goku has always been about training, fighting and testing himself. Goku constantly thinking those things is Goku's core characteristic, especially as he gets older. I mean, Goku certainly has some other thoughts, but they ultimately relate to his main thought of "Who can I fight next?/How can I get stronger?". Silly stuff like Goku never kissing Chi Chi don't display a lack of intelligence. It's a dumb, and I mean really, dumb gag. But I think some people are looking into it way too deeply and/or taking it way too seriously. Does it make sense for Goku to have never kissed Chi Chi? No, it doesn't. But given how casually distant Goku can be with his family, it's not something completely out of the realm of possibility. Super just follows that trends. Calling Goku a retard in any way is really making a mountain out of mole hole.

I've only really come across one instance where Goku, in my opinion, showed a distinct lack of intelligence in Super and that was when he couldn't tell that was Beerus wearing a Monaka suit in EP42. But in that circumstance, it was 100% played for laughs and pure filler. Him forgetting stuff like the senzu and and seal for the Mafuba jar... it's just a case of, well, forgetting things in a race against time. I mean, are we really gonna start labelling people stupid if they forget important things? It's like locking you keys inside your car or leaving a bag of groceries on the bus or forgetting important documents you're meant to take to school or work at home the same day. Shit like that just happens. It's a common lapse in concentration that occurs to everyone at one stage of their life, even if they're not in a rush. It's happened to me, you and everyone on this forum at one point in their live. That shouldn't mean you're stupid. That's a bit of an overreaction, in my opinion.

Chi Chi has always been quite a hothead, but she has her moments where she mellows out and just accepts Goku's bullshit because that's ultimately what he can do from time to time but she knows he doesn't do it out of malice or spite. And in all fairness, if you had an irresponsible husband like Goku, your patient would be stretched to the limit.

Gohan is shift in focus is perfectly acceptable given he got married and has a child and is still looking for greater opportunities to provide as much as he can for his family. I really don't understand why Gohan is being getting flack for simply wanting to making he isn't living off of donations from family and friends like Goku and Chi Chi are. Gohan won't always have the time to play Great Saiyaman because that's more of hobby than an actual commitment. When he has actual time to play superhero, he'll do it. And he's actually done that in few episodes of Super, albeit briefly. And, no, Gohan never loved training with his father, hell he pretty much only ever trained once with Goku and that was in circumstances where he really had no choice. I mean, when Goku announced that he was going to coming back to life for one day to take part in WMAT in the Majin Boo arc, Gohan initially wasn't even going to take part in that tournament. It took Videl blackmailing him for that to happen. So Gohan has never shown a love for training or fighting with anyone. He does it out of necessity. I really don't know why Gohan is being labelled a nerd for trying top provide for his family and for himself.

.
Pretty sure i already corrected you on this before but Gohan was already attending when Goku said he'd come. That's exactly why Goku said he'd come. Because Gohan already had been blackmailed and was attending which lead Vegeta and Goku to attend.

Also, Gohans a nerd. It's not a bad thing like some people ironically try to act like it is, but he kind of is.
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Re: Modern Dragon Ball needs to stop throwing Goku and his family under a bus.

Post by RedShift » Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:46 am

Lord Beerus wrote:Him forgetting stuff like the senzu and and seal for the Mafuba jar... it's just a case of, well, forgetting things in a race against time. I mean, are we really gonna start labelling people stupid if they forget important things? It's like locking you keys inside your car or leaving a bag of groceries on the bus or forgetting important documents you're meant to take to school or work at home the same day. Shit like that just happens. It's a common lapse in concentration that occurs to everyone at one stage of their life, even if they're not in a rush. It's happened to me, you and everyone on this forum at one point in their live. That shouldn't mean you're stupid. That's a bit of an overreaction, in my opinion.
Except it really wasn't? The entire point of Goku & Vegeta going back to there own timeline was to figure out how to beat Zamasu. There answer was the Evil Containment Wave. So Goku then spends the next several hours learning the technique... Which involves sealing someone in a jar. With a seal.

... And he immediately forgets about the jar in the time machine...

... AND to make it worse, he doesn't even remember to bring the actual seal in the first place!

You're marginalizing quite a huge screw up here.

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Re: Modern Dragon Ball needs to stop throwing Goku and his family under a bus.

Post by Mazingerdestro » Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:20 am

I don't think the Son family ever harmed the series' progression. On the contrary, sometimes Gohan, Goten, and Chichi allowed for the plot to expand.
Since Goku puts training over everything, his family is just a way to write funny episodes without having to turn Goku to a clown.
I can't imagine a single moment at least in Super that his family dictated the plot.
However, the family was used as a plot element. In the Golden Arc Gohan was the one that called Goku.
In the Future Trunks arc, Gohan was the one that helped Trunks stop been depressed.

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Re: Modern Dragon Ball needs to stop throwing Goku and his family under a bus.

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:47 am

Goku lost his shit when he found out a different timeline Chi Chi got murdered. Don't know what you mean Goku x ChiChi doesn't exact. Vegeta spends just as much time away from his family as Goku. Hit mini arc, Goku was eating with his family where was Vegeta? Oh yeah with Whis... Not to mention ditched everyone in the Freeza arc to train with Whis for quite a long time.

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Re: Modern Dragon Ball needs to stop throwing Goku and his family under a bus.

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Jan 18, 2017 2:08 pm

RedShift wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Him forgetting stuff like the senzu and and seal for the Mafuba jar... it's just a case of, well, forgetting things in a race against time. I mean, are we really gonna start labelling people stupid if they forget important things? It's like locking you keys inside your car or leaving a bag of groceries on the bus or forgetting important documents you're meant to take to school or work at home the same day. Shit like that just happens. It's a common lapse in concentration that occurs to everyone at one stage of their life, even if they're not in a rush. It's happened to me, you and everyone on this forum at one point in their live. That shouldn't mean you're stupid. That's a bit of an overreaction, in my opinion.
Except it really wasn't? The entire point of Goku & Vegeta going back to there own timeline was to figure out how to beat Zamasu. There answer was the Evil Containment Wave. So Goku then spends the next several hours learning the technique... Which involves sealing someone in a jar. With a seal.

... And he immediately forgets about the jar in the time machine...

... AND to make it worse, he doesn't even remember to bring the actual seal in the first place!

You're marginalizing quite a huge screw up here.
Even if they sealed Zamasu, what would stop Goku Black from breaking the jar open and freeing him again?
kinisking wrote:Pretty sure i already corrected you on this before but Gohan was already attending when Goku said he'd come. That's exactly why Goku said he'd come. Because Gohan already had been blackmailed and was attending which lead Vegeta and Goku to attend. .
Nope. That's not the case. Videl literally blackmails Gohan into entering the tournament in the manga. Goku announcing he would be taking part in the tournament as part of his one day only revival takes place after that event. It happens in Chapter 425.

Fun Fact Time:
Chapter 425 was never technically adapted into the anime as-is. However, some elements from that chapter were reworked and incorporated into the anime to accommodate the additional Great Saiyaman filler material created.

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Re: Modern Dragon Ball needs to stop throwing Goku and his family under a bus.

Post by kinisking » Wed Jan 18, 2017 2:41 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
RedShift wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Him forgetting stuff like the senzu and and seal for the Mafuba jar... it's just a case of, well, forgetting things in a race against time. I mean, are we really gonna start labelling people stupid if they forget important things? It's like locking you keys inside your car or leaving a bag of groceries on the bus or forgetting important documents you're meant to take to school or work at home the same day. Shit like that just happens. It's a common lapse in concentration that occurs to everyone at one stage of their life, even if they're not in a rush. It's happened to me, you and everyone on this forum at one point in their live. That shouldn't mean you're stupid. That's a bit of an overreaction, in my opinion.
Except it really wasn't? The entire point of Goku & Vegeta going back to there own timeline was to figure out how to beat Zamasu. There answer was the Evil Containment Wave. So Goku then spends the next several hours learning the technique... Which involves sealing someone in a jar. With a seal.

... And he immediately forgets about the jar in the time machine...

... AND to make it worse, he doesn't even remember to bring the actual seal in the first place!

You're marginalizing quite a huge screw up here.
Even if they sealed Zamasu, what would stop Goku Black from breaking the jar open and freeing him again?
kinisking wrote:Pretty sure i already corrected you on this before but Gohan was already attending when Goku said he'd come. That's exactly why Goku said he'd come. Because Gohan already had been blackmailed and was attending which lead Vegeta and Goku to attend. .
Nope. That's not the case. Videl literally blackmails Gohan into entering the tournament in the manga. Goku announcing he would be taking part in the tournament as part of his one day only revival takes place after that event. It happens in Chapter 425.

Fun Fact Time:
Chapter 425 was never technically adapted into the anime as-is. However, some elements from that chapter were reworked and incorporated into the anime to accommodate the additional Great Saiyaman filler material created.
I know that. We miscommunicated. I thought you were saying that Goku decided to enter the tournament, and even then Gohan didn't want to come until he was blackmailed. I was trying to say that Gohan got blackmailed beforehand but it seems you already know that.

Gohan getting blackmailed into the tournament doesn't really mean much though. All those fighters would be Mr.Satan level at best. Not even Goku would want to come to a tournament like that. But you're right, Gohan fights out of necessity (although I'd argue that he's more neutral about fighting then downright hating it like some people say).
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Re: Modern Dragon Ball needs to stop throwing Goku and his family under a bus.

Post by mabalia » Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:10 pm

To be fair Vegeta is ooc in super too and his fans complain about his characterization.

Some episodes super can do right, most of them don't. After the future Trunks arc, their characterization in the anime got a lot better. I hope they keep it that way, but I know it depends of the scriptwriter. I do like Toyotaro's work on the manga, especially the characterization.

And like everything in super is canon now, let's analyze Goku's reaction to three deaths of people that are his companions (Toriyama said so, your understanding as a fan of his work doesn't matter :problem: ). First Goku heard that Black killed Future Bulma and his reaction was pathetic (my most hated ooc Goku reaction in super), he simply didn't care and was happy about the fight, and she was the woman who saved his life when she built a time machine to give him the medicine to his heart's disease.

Second Goku heard of Chichi's and Goten's deaths... He acted with fury without the joy of a chalenge a fight usually has to him. He didn't want to spare Zamasus the way he did to Freeza (and he was the one who killed his companion Krillin), no he'd never forgive Zamasu, he wanted to kill him but unfortunetally he wasn't strong enough.

Just by those two reactions: or his (alternate) family is some kind of special companion to him or he doesn't consider Bulma a good companion of his.

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Re: Modern Dragon Ball needs to stop throwing Goku and his family under a bus.

Post by Kanassa » Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:37 pm

mabalia wrote:
And like everything in super is canon now, let's analyze Goku's reaction to three deaths of people that are his companions (Toriyama said so, your understanding as a fan of his work doesn't matter :problem: ). First Goku heard that Black killed Future Bulma and his reaction was pathetic (my most hated ooc Goku reaction in super), he simply didn't care and was happy about the fight, and she was the woman who saved his life when she built a time machine to give him the medicine to his heart's disease.
This isn't OOC for Goku.

Again, there's a big difference between hearing about your friend dying in another timeline, and having the killer of your family stab you in the hcest, pin you up against a wall and smugly recite the details of slaughtering your family while wearing your face.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:

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Re: Modern Dragon Ball needs to stop throwing Goku and his family under a bus.

Post by floofychan333 » Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:39 pm

Everybody just likes Vegeta more, especially in North America. To be honest, I've always thought the Son family was dysfunctional and shouldn't continue to be that way, but I'm glad Vegeta is finally on a winning streak. He's always gotten the short end of the stick throughout the series but now Dragon Ball is The Goku and Vegeta show rather than the Goku show.
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Re: Modern Dragon Ball needs to stop throwing Goku and his family under a bus.

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Thu Jan 19, 2017 1:34 am

Somehow the intense flanderization of their family has worsened the joke in the Saiyan arc that they were supposed to be mildly dysfunctional. I can't remember any real time where they actually had a family relationship outside that one picture Chi Chi had of them together. Whats even more odd is that somehow Chi Chi gets all the blame for her dissatisfaction with it. I mean he spends more time with North Kai than he does at home. Even North Kai is starting to hate him apparently. We know Goku likes to eat and train but come on. If Z never happened and we just had Super, Goku probably wouldn't have even had kids at all.
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Re: Modern Dragon Ball needs to stop throwing Goku and his family under a bus.

Post by ABED » Thu Jan 19, 2017 6:53 am

I can't use the term Flanderization in light of Flanders being more dynamic than that term gives him credit for.
Whats even more odd is that somehow Chi Chi gets all the blame for her dissatisfaction with it.
Well, she wanted to marry him because of her weird ideas of what marriage is instead of actually finding someone she loved.
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Re: Modern Dragon Ball needs to stop throwing Goku and his family under a bus.

Post by mabalia » Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:50 am

Kanassa wrote:
mabalia wrote:
And like everything in super is canon now, let's analyze Goku's reaction to three deaths of people that are his companions (Toriyama said so, your understanding as a fan of his work doesn't matter :problem: ). First Goku heard that Black killed Future Bulma and his reaction was pathetic (my most hated ooc Goku reaction in super), he simply didn't care and was happy about the fight, and she was the woman who saved his life when she built a time machine to give him the medicine to his heart's disease.
This isn't OOC for Goku.

Again, there's a big difference between hearing about your friend dying in another timeline, and having the killer of your family stab you in the hcest, pin you up against a wall and smugly recite the details of slaughtering your family while wearing your face.
In the past Goku reacted to his friends’s death in a serious way. Of course I didn’t hope he’d reacted to Bulma’s death with the same fury he had when saw Kuririn being killed, after all he didn’t see it before his own eyes, but he could at least act like he cared about her death, especially because she was the woman that saved his life, besides being his friend. Even when 17 year old Future Trunks told him of his friends's death he was shocked and later disapointed because he heard he didn't fight.

If he was a bit angry about her death, in the first fight against Zamasu (anime version) he could've won right there if he took the fight seriously, Zamasu wasn't strong enough to win that fight. From what I read of the manga, Goku cares about his friends and I think he acted ooc in super.

And the point I wanted to make is: people takes super to justify that Goku loves and cares about his family the same way he loves and cares about his friends, and I present two exemples of how Goku reacts to a friend's death and to family members's death (all of them come from alternate timeline). Even Freeza who killed Kuririn he was willing to spare, but the same courtesy he couldn't make to Zamasu.

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Re: Modern Dragon Ball needs to stop throwing Goku and his family under a bus.

Post by Pickle_Jar » Sat Jan 21, 2017 6:21 am

I've always assumed Goku is such a goof because he sustained a TBI at a very young age and his brain healed around it. So of course he's gonna have memory problems and fumble socially, yet be a genius in battle a lot of the time.

There has been plenty of evidence that Goku cares about his family.

But the kiss thing cracked me up because there's a suggested kiss during the Cell saga in DBZ. We don't see it, so one could easily surmise that they kissed each other on the cheek.

Now I really want to see Goku and ChiChi kiss in Super just so he can go up to Vegeta later and be all "it wasn't bad!"
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