Possibility of a remastered Dragon Ball?

[Kojiro Sasaki]

Now... continue the discussion!

Now he is talking! Pour him a drink!

What would be your perfect Dragon Ball release? What do you expect from Toei? What are your desires, quality standards, preferences and wishes? Let your imagination go wild on that one!
Present your thoughts here. We will pick the best ones and put it into our presentation.

[sangofe]

My perfect release would be a cleaned and color corrected version on bd in full screen. Not cleaned for all grain, but dirt. With eq'd broadcast audio.

Since I love to compare dubs, I'd love to have all sorts of imaginable dub synced to it. I reckon that's too much work though, so I'd be happy with my first point.

For it to sell internationaly, English, French, Chinese and Portuguese subtitles would help.

[Robo4900]

If it's remastered like the Levels, but uses Toei's negatives as the source, that would be the best, and probably all I can reasonably ask for.

Honestly though, my ideal version would be "Properly" full frame, and actually be zoomed out enough to include the edges of the drawing that were partially visible in the Dragon Boxes of the original series.

[genjosanzo8]

To get a remaster from Toei it need Fans great mobilisation BUT it's really true that to say all bad things about official release there is lot of people but to get out a finger from the ass there is very few people....HOW PEOPLE THINKS TO GOT A GREAT REMASTER IF THEY JUST SAY NOTHING?

when i first came here i was searching about broadcast audio with the dream to create the best release (like i was thinking that official company will never dit it) with best color correction and the best audio for dragon ball series that's what got me lot of trouble but with time and after seeing all around the world how people act and think, even if i have the broadcast audio and a way to color correct things i will never release them to public....
People want the best but buy crappy stuff
they criticized the release but don't say anything to the one releasing them
if only the half of people around the world disliking official release have used what kojiro forms give us there is a lot of chance to get trully what we expect but people allways want other did the stuff and just got the things and i don't even count those who love crappy things already release...the so called fandom didn't deserve to get the best stuff in reality

[Kojiro Sasaki]

My perfect release would be a cleaned and color corrected version on bd in full screen. Not cleaned for all grain, but dirt. With eq'd broadcast audio.

What about other stuff like NEPs, trailers, commercials? What type of extras would you want to see? I would love to get something like this, but focused more on Dragon Ball and sound production.

For it to sell internationaly, English, French, Chinese and Portuguese subtitles would help.

We can tell them about subtitles, but I do not believe that they will even consider hiring translators for all those languages. It's better to leave this job to local companies.

Honestly though, my ideal version would be "Properly" full frame, and actually be zoomed out enough to include the edges of the drawing that were partially visible in the Dragon Boxes of the original series.

You mean something like this?

Come on people! Post awesome opinions! We will make screenshots and send them to Toei! (remember about proper grammar and wording )

[sangofe]

My perfect release would be a cleaned and color corrected version on bd in full screen. Not cleaned for all grain, but dirt. With eq'd broadcast audio.

What about other stuff like NEPs, trailers, commercials? What type of extras would you want to see? I would love to get something like this, but focused more on Dragon Ball and sound production.

For it to sell internationaly, English, French, Chinese and Portuguese subtitles would help.

We can tell them about subtitles, but I do not believe that they will even consider hiring translators for all those languages. It's better to leave this job to local companies.

Honestly though, my ideal version would be "Properly" full frame, and actually be zoomed out enough to include the edges of the drawing that were partially visible in the Dragon Boxes of the original series.

You mean something like this?

Come on people! Post awesome opinions! We will make screenshots and send them to Toei! (remember about proper grammar and wording )

Yes, any extras would be nice. NEPs is something I consider a given... A Toei release without NEPs would make me rage loudly. I'd also love a maximum of interviews to be included.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Well, I guess if we're throwing out what the ideal would be, I'll put my two cents in. My ideal is basically Kai, but without the redrawing. Also, I'd like an extensive retracing of the line-work pre-Freeza, since they were noticeably diminished before that point in Kai. Broadcast audio is too much to ask for at this point, but I'm a fan of the clarity present in the current Funi Blu-rays, so maybe tweak it just a tad from the DBoxes in that direction.

That's all that's really crucial to me. I have a few preferences; Little to no DVNR, but I wouldn't mind it as long as they don't aggressively over-re-sharpen. I'm indifferent on the aspect ratio.

I guess that's probably it for me.

[Kojiro Sasaki]

Well, I guess if we're throwing out what the ideal would be, I'll put my two cents in. My ideal is basically Kai, but without the redrawing. Also, I'd like an extensive retracing of the line-work pre-Freeza, since they were noticeably diminished before that point in Kai. Broadcast audio is too much to ask for at this point, but I'm a fan of the clarity present in the current Funi Blu-rays, so maybe tweak it just a tad from the DBoxes in that direction.

That's all that's really crucial to me. I have a few preferences; Little to no DVNR, but I wouldn't mind it as long as they don't aggressively over-re-sharpen. I'm indifferent on the aspect ratio.

This is something that draws my attention for a while now, so I'll let myself ask a question. There are people who don't care for technical stuff or artistic integrity - they just want to enjoy the show and they have full right to do it as they want. There are people who are openly ignorant about things and they insist on calling bad stuff good stuff - hell, we have freedom of thought (still) and freedom of speech wasn't (yet) banned - they have damn right to have any opinion they like. This is not a criminal offence. But! There are people who are interested in technical stuff, who have technical knowledge and do care for artistic integrity. My question is: How some of those people join their knowledge and care with being indifferent on losing ~15% of the original picture that was intended to be seen? I would really want to get better understanding of this attitude.

[Robo4900]

What about other stuff like NEPs, trailers, commercials? What type of extras would you want to see? I would love to get something like this, but focused more on Dragon Ball and sound production.

That looks cool. I'd love something like that on a release.
I'd really like a feature looking at anime vs manga differences; not just filler stuff like Garlic Jr., but things like the way Videl discover's Saiyaman's identity. Perhaps also an interview with some insights from the voice actors about what it was like working on the show.

For it to sell internationaly, English, French, Chinese and Portuguese subtitles would help.

We can tell them about subtitles, but I do not believe that they will even consider hiring translators for all those languages. It's better to leave this job to local companies.

The way to pitch this to them is to say they could probably just get the proper companies to send them the subs they use on their DVDs for the Japanese track.

Honestly though, my ideal version would be "Properly" full frame, and actually be zoomed out enough to include the edges of the drawing that were partially visible in the Dragon Boxes of the original series.

You mean something like this?

Come on people! Post awesome opinions! We will make screenshots and send them to Toei! (remember about proper grammar and wording )

Precisely. Possibly more, though; that scan still leaves a small amount of the edges not in frame. Excluding the black bars around it and copyright stuff on the bottom, I'd like something like this.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

There are people who are interested in technical stuff, who have technical knowledge and do care for artistic integrity. My question is: How some of those people join their knowledge and care with being indifferent on losing ~15% of the original picture that was intended to be seen? I would really want to get better understanding of this attitude.

Even though I usually don't prefer it, I do have a certain respect for the intent behind the modernization of classics. Cropping happens to be one of the techniques I usually don't mind if done well because it can make something old feel new with very little actual change. It's not like you need the entire picture, your eyes can only focus on small portions at a time anyway. The only real obstacle is framing, and it's a tiny one at that as long as you cut selectively. I feel similar about most DVNR processes, although I've never been able to get a result I'm happy with on my own.

I guess another, simpler answer is that I care more about the result than the intent. If the picture can be cut to a modern aspect ratio while maintaining quality equal or close to the original (Comparing 4:3 and 16:9 Kai prove to me that in can be done with Dragon Ball), it's a fair compromise.

Lastly, perhaps you're misguided in your categorizations of "fans who just enjoy the series no matter how it looks" and "fans who have respect for the original intent". Quite frankly, I consider myself to be in both categories. I don't own Kai or the Dragon Boxes, I sold them. My primary method of watching the series is the Blu-rays, I have one of the worst looking official releases in the history of cartoons. Do I still enjoy when I watch? Of course! It's still a good show (even if it does make me puke now and then).

[Robo4900]

The issue is that so many people prefer full-frame, it's not worth cropping it, because someone like you doesn't mind it in 4:3, whereas someone who wants it in 16:9 at all costs can just have their TV do auto-zoom. Most TV auto-zoom algorithms can detect mouth movements, and move to the correct places, so it'll be good enough for them, meaning a 4:3 remaster would cater to everyone.

Meanwhile, a 16:9 remaster gets 4:3 fans mad, it usually is criticised even by its advocates like yourself(I admit that while Funi's cropping does have its moments, it's never seamless, as the framing often feels far too tight; Kai ended up redrawing some shots in its widescreen version to prevent framing issues), meaning the only people it really caters to are those who want it in 16:9 without caring how it looks; the kind of people who can be satisfied with the zoom function on their TV.

As for DVNR, I agree, reducing noise is a necessary part of remastering, but as it is, Dragon Ball only exists on 16mm film(Ignoring the movies, and a handful of episodes in the Freeza/Namek arc), often of quite low quality stock, meaning no matter which way you cut it, either there'll be grain, or it'll look like the Funimation Blu-Rays. The trick is to keep it in there, but to reduce it to acceptable levels. There is one additional problem presented by the nature of 16mm -- the effective resolution is debatable, and often depends on film stock, generation of the print, etc. But generally, if you take a lot of care with remastering, you can get it looking nice at 1080p, although most would say that's where it caps out. The problem is, cropping effectively increases the resolution you'll be scanning at by ~50%. Kai got around this by having a blurry/fuzzy look to begin with, which also got around the problem of smaller background drawings looking a little derpy at this size, and it got around a lot of the framing issues you get with this by redrawing some parts to allow them to be extended to fit the full width. But, as with all of Kai's redraws, these parts stand out like a sore thumb, and if Toei were to go with a sharper remastering style, there's no way they could get away with this. It's possible they could try re-scanning the original background art, and using some clever compositing or some original animation cels to do this more seamlessly, but it would be very difficult for them to achieve a good result.

In the end, the real trick to remastering is to respect the source material, and thus, to not make the show something it's not. Kai 1.0 is an ideal example of how to remaster a show -- the colours were nicely corrected; the grain was reduced enough to please people who don't like it -- and to aid in video compression -- but all the detail was left intact; it had enough of the frame scanned that zooming with your TV looks okay; and it was scanned from the best possible source material. And while I'm honestly not the biggest fan of Kai's slightly fuzzy, blurry look(I like it sharper, like the Levels), I really can't fault it. As I've mentioned numerous times, the blurriness smooths over a lot of potential issues Kai could have had, and honestly, I'd be perfectly happy to see OG Dragon Ball remastered in the same style. Preferably without shortening it at all, though; I never thought the filler in OG Dragon Ball was intrusive, with the only bothersome stuff being easily skippable(The roaming lake mini-arc, for example), but enjoyable enough to let play anyway.

[Kojiro Sasaki]

Even though I usually don't prefer it, I do have a certain respect for the intent behind the modernization of classics.

I am just a classic purist. No modernizations allowed

Cropping happens to be one of the techniques I usually don't mind if done well because it can make something old feel new with very little actual change.

I think that this one is a matter of opinion. I consider the change too big to be accepted. Still - I don't see any logical reason to remove ~15% of the picture that was intended to be seen. Especially when you're working with cheap 16 mm film, with which you will not get any quality gain by zooming in to match horizontal resolution of the HD screen. You will only get more grainy and blurred picture.

It's not like you need the entire picture, your eyes can only focus on small portions at a time anyway.

“A 4:3 ratio mimics human eyesight visual angle of 155°h x 120°v, that is 4:3.075, almost exactly the same.” You would rather not be able to focus on the picture you gain at the sides.

The only real obstacle is framing, and it's a tiny one at that as long as you cut selectively.

How would you crop the following scenes, to not interfere with the original director's vision?
[spoiler][/spoiler]

I feel similar about most DVNR processes, although I've never been able to get a result I'm happy with on my own.

Have you liked DVNR on the Levels? They used some.

I guess another, simpler answer is that I care more about the result than the intent. If the picture can be cut to a modern aspect ratio while maintaining quality equal or close to the original (Comparing 4:3 and 16:9 Kai prove to me that in can be done with Dragon Ball), it's a fair compromise.

Kai was, at least, released in two formats. As long as the original version in proper format is available - I have no problems with producing modernized versions.

I have one of the worst looking official releases in the history of cartoons. Do I still enjoy when I watch? Of course! It's still a good show (even if it does make me puke now and then).

“fans who just enjoy the series no matter how it looks” - doesn't it fit perfectly? But seriously, I know what you're saying, and that hits the essence of my question: How do you join your quality standards with enjoying shitty looking stuff?

The only kind of modernizations I accept, if we can call it modernization, is what they do with classic albums: Going back to the original multitrack masters and remixing everything from scratch, to avoid all the degradation caused by old equipment used before. If they would take first generation music masters, first generation SFX masters, first generation voice masters and re-edit the audio track completely from scratch in stereo or 5.1, while matching the original placement of everything, which would give us significant improvement in sounding - I would gladly accept that

I believe that if some show is produced in some form and broadcasted all around the world where it gets milions of fans, it should be released in original form in the first place. Making the modernized version the only version available is just plain unfair.

[DB1984]

Not only would lack of NEPs make me rage loudly, but so would if they're not restored to the correct order. (before the end credits)

[Jinzoningen MULE]

How would you crop the following scenes, to not interfere with the original director's vision?
[spoiler][/spoiler]

I don't know... panning? I'm by no means advocating for cropped releases, I'm just saying that I get why some might want that and I don't care enough to resent it.

Have you liked DVNR on the Levels? They used some.

The Level Sets have an absolutely useless amount of it. They may as well have not even bothered, the totality of the grain pre-process likely looks almost identical.

Kai was, at least, released in two formats. As long as the original version in proper format is available - I have no problems with producing modernized versions.

Was it really, though? In my part of the world, it was only released in 4:3. I suspect that similarly, other countries either only get 16:9 or only 4:3. I guess it doesn't matter, just a note.

I know what you're saying, and that hits the essence of my question: How do you join your quality standards with enjoying shitty looking stuff?

How does a food critic eat at McDonald's? How does a Star Wars fan watch Lucas' edits to the Original Trilogy? How does a Dragon Ball fan listen to the poor sound quality Japanese track? Compartmentalization. You can acknowledge that something is bad without resenting it enough to reject it. I watch, think to myself "That sucks... Oh well.", then move on with my day.

[Desassina]

I'd rather have a remade Dragon Ball anime with no regards to canon. Just retell the story as a new production with much better artists, to recapture that round drawing style, but with flowing animation nonetheless. Think of a breaking point for the series not to evolve into DBZ, but continue with its own material instead, and that could be around Piccolo Daimao.

[Robo4900]

How does a food critic eat at McDonald's? How does a Star Wars fan watch Lucas' edits to the Original Trilogy? How does a Dragon Ball fan listen to the poor sound quality Japanese track? Compartmentalization. You can acknowledge that something is bad without resenting it enough to reject it. I watch, think to myself "That sucks... Oh well.", then move on with my day.

But, if we can get an official release off the ground that does it right, you wouldn't have to just tolerate this crap.

I think that's the point Kojiro's been trying to make this whole time, and what the OP of this thread was getting at too; if we all acknowledge that the current releases are terrible, and clearly express the fact we want something new, then the worst thing that could happen is nothing, in which case you haven't lost anything, but you've tried to make a change. After all, you can't really know what'll happen until you try. Thing is, Toei live or die by fan demand, that's how capitalism works; if people don't want something, they don't buy it. So if Toei are convinced that the fans want a good HD release, they'll at least have to consider it, because if the fans want it, they'll buy it, and it'll make them loads of money, and generate goodwill. Again, basic capitalism.

[Kojiro Sasaki]

How does a food critic eat at McDonald's? How does a Star Wars fan watch Lucas' edits to the Original Trilogy? How does a Dragon Ball fan listen to the poor sound quality Japanese track? Compartmentalization. You can acknowledge that something is bad without resenting it enough to reject it. I watch, think to myself "That sucks... Oh well.", then move on with my day.

This proves my point! You do not enjoy quality. You enjoy the show! That's the same as me and the Japanese audio track. I hate the quality, I love the content. I never said that you need to reject stuff, especially if you have no choice.

I'd rather have a remade Dragon Ball anime with no regards to canon. Just retell the story as a new production with much better artists, to recapture that round drawing style, but with flowing animation nonetheless. Think of a breaking point for the series not to evolve into DBZ, but continue with its own material instead, and that could be around Piccolo Daimao.

Your imagination definitely gone wild on that one! But hell - that's what I wanted myself...This topic is about the remaster, not remake. We are talking about completely different thing here.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

This proves my point! You do not enjoy quality. You enjoy the show!

Close. I actually love both, but I'm willing to settle in some areas if that means I can get it cheaper. Marketability is a large factor there.