Does Toriyama listen to his fans?

[FoolsGil]

Not only that he doesn't, he has at times gone out of his way to do the opposite of what people asked for or expected.

[ABED]

Considering how each fan have different story in mind, he would get crazy, if he tried to please everyone

He's not likely one to listen to anyone because most people do not understand his writing or his vision anyway. lol. The only people who do are those that understand the roots of Toriyama's influences like the "Dao of Dragonball" Blog; which very few people do. If most of the western fanbase doesn't understand the series at all as is, they surely will not understand Toriyama's vision let alone the themes of his work to suggest plausible additions. I can imagine if there was a contest or poll for ideas, the western fans would just want their shitty broly knock-off fan characters to be inserted or SS3 God Bardock. Pandering to these fans is just how we got "Super Saiyan Rage" and the Gary-Stu Trunks in Super.

The only things people can really build off of are what Toei creates, and for the most part the producers behind the original movies and the concept of GT in the 90s (pre-Heroes) were in the right direction and at least felt consistent with the tones of the initial Z series.

It's not even the lack of understanding. If this was an American show we were discussing, the point would still remain the same - it's a bad idea to take advice from "the fans".

[sintzu]

I can imagine if there was a contest or poll for ideas, the western fans would just want their shitty broly knock-off fan characters to be inserted or SS3 God Bardock. Pandering to these fans is just how we got "Super Saiyan Rage" and the Gary-Stu Trunks in Super.

The only things people can really build off of are what Toei creates, and for the most part the producers behind the original movies and the concept of GT in the 90s (pre-Heroes) were in the right direction and at least felt consistent with the tones of the initial Z series.

There's so much more to DB than that. Vegeta in the Buu arc was far from the strongest character in that arc yet look how well he was handled. you can have all the transformations and flashy fights you want but none of that will ever surpass good writing.

I think the reaosn the original movies and GT turned out the way they did is because the franchise wasn't just known for its Ssj forms. The original DB didn't have any. It took Z 122 chapters to introduce the 1st form. The 3 "forms" that were introduced in the Cell arc weren't different or new, 2 were just buffed up versions like what Roshi used to do and Gohan's just had an electric aura. The 2nd new form which was Ssj3 was introduced 156 chapters later after Ssj1. Ssj4 was introduced after 35 episodes in GT and continued to be the only new form throughout the show. one of the things I like about GT is that they could've introduced a new one every arc but instead they designed one epic one that they believed was enough to hold the whole show. A producer working on GT even said they didn't want a new form but Shueisha did so that's why they came up with it. this proves that back then the Ssj forms weren't the full focus of the franchise.

DB (The manga) & GT (It wasn't perfect but it's the thought that counts) focused on story and character development first, the forms were just a small part in that.

Nowadays however, Ssj forms are front and center of the franchise and I think heroes is what started that. it's pretty much what the game lives on and it's one of the biggest things the franchise has done. Shueisha isn't stupid, they know that Ssj forms sell so that's why they're a priority now.

[ABED]

Transformations in DB now feel like Zords in Power Rangers. They keep making more of them because they sell.

[floofychan333]

Why do so many on here think "evil Goku" is somehow fan related? It's a fictional trope to have dark versions of the hero.

As for "the fans" there is no such thing. It's just a label of a disparate group of people with different preferences and opinions.

It's been a fan concept for a long time, notably for Goku.

[sintzu]

Transformations in DB now feel like Zords in Power Rangers. They keep making more of them because they sell.

I don't mind having new forms every now and then, I just don't like the fact that they're the face of the franchise.

Ssj forms being the face of DB would be like batmobiles being the face of Batman. Yes they're important to batman but they've never been the main focus from the companies behind it.

[ABED]

Why do so many on here think "evil Goku" is somehow fan related? It's a fictional trope to have dark versions of the hero.

As for "the fans" there is no such thing. It's just a label of a disparate group of people with different preferences and opinions.

It's been a fan concept for a long time, notably for Goku.

You give fans FAR too much credit for what is a common fictional trope. Dark versions of the heroes is not remotely new, like in that episode of Star Trek.

[Burast]

Why was Goku Black fanservice?

a Evil Goku was a dream of many fans for a while.

[Gog]

The 3 "forms" that were introduced in the Cell arc weren't different or new, 2 were just buffed up versions like what Roshi used to do and Gohan's just had an electric aura.

They where technically new forms in every sense of the word, and besides the point Roshi's buffed up form was just him accessing his full power, which is something that Freeza would ironically later copy.

Super Saiyan 2
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Super Saiyan Third Grade
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Super Saiyan Second Grade
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Each one of these forms are an ascended version of Super Saiyan, they are there own forms. And besides that if we count every arc of Dragon Ball Super then four forms have been added in, Super Saiyan Blue, Super Saiyan God, The Golden Form, and Super Saiyan Ikari, (I don't count Super Saiyan Rose as it isn't it's own thing, as it's just essentially Super Saiyan Blue with the of a Ki of a true god) Compare that to what we got in Z, Super Saiyan, SJ2G, SJ3G, LSSJ, SSJ2, SS3, Ozaruu, Zarbon's monster form, and Freeza's forms.

Of course Super will eventually surpass Z in it's amount of transformations, but we're focusing on the now, and right now Z has a lot more transformations over Super.

Why was Goku Black fanservice?

a Evil Goku was a dream of many fans for a while.

Goku Black was fan service in design and name only.

Anyway for the topic on hand, no Toriyama does not listen to the fans, Toei on the other hand...

[sintzu]

They where technically new forms in every sense of the word, and besides the point Roshi's buffed up form was just him accessing his full power, which is something that Freeza would ironically later copy.

What I mean is that they were in line with Ssj1 in terms of looks, they were so similar that the manga didn't even bother giving them different names until a lot later and even then just one got a new new name (Ssj2).

Ssj3 on the other hand looked a lot different than the others which is why I consider it the only "new" form after Ssj1.

[Gog]

They where technically new forms in every sense of the word, and besides the point Roshi's buffed up form was just him accessing his full power, which is something that Freeza would ironically later copy.

What I mean is that they were in line with Ssj1 in terms of looks, they were so similar that the manga didn't even bother giving them different names until a lot later and even then just one got a new new name (Ssj2).

Ssj3 on the other hand looked a lot different than the others which is why I consider it the only "new" form after Ssj1.

You've got a point there, every Super Saiyan form introduced in the Cell arc sucked.

[ABED]

Why was Goku Black fanservice?

a Evil Goku was a dream of many fans for a while.

That's it? Again, it's a trope.

[Trickster]

I think the problem with fans is that they want more of the same. Bring characters back and introduce new Ssj forms are usually on top of the list of fan demands.

EXACTLY!!! And that's awfull!

[ABED]

I think people want more of the same because it's what they know. That's one reason it's a bad idea to give them what they want. They can't envision something new and different until someone shows it to them.

[sintzu]

You've got a point there, every Super Saiyan form introduced in the Cell arc sucked.

I think they were great because they weren't the story's focus and they were just treated as power ups. it made the original Ssj truly feel special.

[ABED]

That does the opposite for me. By treating them as not special, it cheapens it. Super Saiyan 1 will always be special because it's the first.

[Captain Strawberry]

I think in terms of story, he will do what he wants to do and not what others what.

Though it seems generally he likes to do the opposite

[Lord Beerus]

The only time Toriyama take anybody's opinion seriously is when he want to swerve it. Toriyama should never listen to the fans, because they themselves don't really know what's good for Dragon Ball's story. I mean, they are some genuinely good ideas and concepts that fans can often provide but they are almost impossible to pinpoint due to being lost in a sea of shitty pandering and shameless fanservice.

[Totamo]

The only time Toriyama take anybody's opinion seriously is when he want to swerve it. Toriyama should never listen to the fans, because they themselves don't really know what's good for Dragon Ball's story. I mean, they are some genuinely good ideas and concepts that fans can often provide but they are almost impossible to pinpoint due to being lost in a sea of shitty pandering and shameless fanservice.

Like Black being Goten..........

[Baggie_Saiyan]

The only time Toriyama take anybody's opinion seriously is when he want to swerve it. Toriyama should never listen to the fans, because they themselves don't really know what's good for Dragon Ball's story. I mean, they are some genuinely good ideas and concepts that fans can often provide but they are almost impossible to pinpoint due to being lost in a sea of shitty pandering and shameless fanservice.

I think Toyotaro is evidence enough that fans simply cannot write Dragon Ball, fans sure as heck can draw it but not write, even something like this if you gave a fan to write Resurrection "F" with the basic plot lines from Toriyama I think it is very likely that the charm of what the final movie had wouldn't be there.