Ideas Don't Matter, Execution Matters

[Doctor.]

Future Trunks and his timeline is a good idea executed terribly. His world cannot function.

[ABED]

Future Trunks and his timeline is a good idea executed terribly. His world cannot function.

In what way?

[Doctor.]

Future Trunks and his timeline is a good idea executed terribly. His world cannot function.

In what way?

The fact that nobody in the afterlife bothers to inform Trunks/Gohan about what's going on (or, rather, the story never even mentions the afterlife or tries to explain why); the fact that Gohan is this super prodigy with massive potential, yet he's a weakling in the future timeline; the fact that the RoSaT exists yet Mr. Popo didn't inform anyone about it following Kami's death; the fact that no efforts have been made to try to find New Namek.

You can explain these yourself, probably, but these are legitimate questions that the story/Toriyama didn't bother to explain himself.

[ABED]

Gohan wasn't a weakling. He was strong, but the cyborgs were stronger, there were two of them and the rest of the team were dead. As for the RST, that's due to a retcon. Toriyama hadn't thought of it yet.

[Doctor.]

Gohan wasn't a weakling. He was strong, but the cyborgs were stronger, there were two of them and the rest of the team were dead. As for the RST, that's due to a retcon. Toriyama hadn't thought of it yet.

He was a weakling. He got put down by a #17 who used half his power. Yet we know, according to Trunks' own words, that Trunks was able to handle #17 and #18 fairly fine on his own. The same Trunks was a nuisance to Goku.

Retcons are part of the execution.

[Dbzfan94]

This could defintely be true about GT.

Great ideas, mostly poor execution; which is why GT isn't very liked among the fanbase.

[ABED]

Gohan wasn't a weakling. He was strong, but the cyborgs were stronger, there were two of them and the rest of the team were dead. As for the RST, that's due to a retcon. Toriyama hadn't thought of it yet.

He was a weakling. He got put down by a #17 who used half his power. Yet we know, according to Trunks' own words, that Trunks was able to handle #17 and #18 fairly fine on his own. The same Trunks was a nuisance to Goku.

Retcons are part of the execution.

Where did you get the idea that 17 only used half of his power? Trunks was able to handle 17 and 18... for a while. Clearly Gohan did the same for a while until he lost his arm. He survived for years and fought multiple times.

I know retcons are a part of the execution, so why are you essentially asking "Why didn't Gohan use the RST?" We know why - lack of forethought on part of the author.

[Doctor.]

Where did you get the idea that 17 only used half of his power? Trunks was able to handle 17 and 18... for a while. Clearly Gohan did the same for a while until he lost his arm. He survived for years and fought multiple times.

17 said it himself. I don't think Gohan did the same thing, if 17's words are anything to go by, they toyed with him. Seeing as how Trunks is comparable to the Vegeta that held his own against #18 (who is stronger than her future counterpart), you can say Trunks was much stronger than Gohan when he went back to the past.

I know retcons are a part of the execution, so why are you essentially asking "Why didn't Gohan use the RST?" We know why - lack of forethought on part of the author.

You're the one who asked why I think the world can't work. It can't work because the author didn't put any thought into it. Be it when creating it or with new additions as the story arc progressed isn't relevant.

[ekrolo2]

Future Trunks and his timeline is a good idea executed terribly. His world cannot function.

It also doesn't help that it's entire point, of Goku not being around to help save the world, is totally defeated by the end of the Cell arc essentially going "We're all better off without Goku!"

[ABED]

You're the one who asked why I think the world can't work. It can't work because the author didn't put any thought into it. Be it when creating it or with new additions as the story arc progressed isn't relevant.

It was the phrasing I found confusing.

17 said it himself. I don't think Gohan did the same thing, if 17's words are anything to go by, they toyed with him. Seeing as how Trunks is comparable to the Vegeta that held his own against #18 (who is stronger than her future counterpart), you can say Trunks was much stronger than Gohan when he went back to the past.

That doesn't make Gohan weak and I still don't recall 17 ever saying he was only using half his power. For all we know, he was boasting. The future Cyborgs toryed with Trunks as well, but at least Gohan lasted longer than any Z fighter before him. We don't know how comparable Trunks was to Vegeta. Trunks got beaten pretty quickly and without much effort. Vegeta lasted much longer against 18. It's all conjecture.

[Doctor.]

That doesn't make Gohan weak and I still don't recall 17 ever saying he was only using half his power. For all we know, he was boasting. The future Cyborgs toryed with Trunks as well, but at least Gohan lasted longer than any Z fighter before him. We don't know how comparable Trunks was to Vegeta. Trunks got beaten pretty quickly and without much effort. Vegeta lasted much longer against 18. It's all conjecture.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

All the other fighters were pretty weak as well, especially if Vegeta never achieved Super Saiyan.

[ABED]

That still doesn't make him weak. 17 is prone to exaggeration.

[Doctor.]

That still doesn't make him weak. 17 is prone to exaggeration.

#17 has almost no personality, I don't think that's a fair assessment. This has gone farther than needed, I obviously meant that he was weaker than his father and his own self in the past.

[ABED]

That still doesn't make him weak. 17 is prone to exaggeration.

#17 has almost no personality, I don't think that's a fair assessment. This has gone farther than needed, I obviously meant that he was weaker than his father and his own self in the past.

He has the personality of a 17 year old with a lot of power and no sense of responsibility, especially in the future so I don't think your assessment is fair at all. We saw him boast constantly in DBZ, saying he was the strongest fighter ever.

[Doctor.]

That still doesn't make him weak. 17 is prone to exaggeration.

#17 has almost no personality, I don't think that's a fair assessment. This has gone farther than needed, I obviously meant that he was weaker than his father and his own self in the past.

He has the personality of a 17 year old with a lot of power and no sense of responsibility, especially in the future so I don't think your assessment is fair at all. We saw him boast constantly in DBZ, saying he was the strongest fighter ever.

Which he was, as far as he knew, at least until Cell came along, at which point he was absorbed and we never saw him again. He never really made any empty boasts.

[ABED]

Yes, as far as he knew because he didn't care to actually test to see if it was the case. He intentionally dismisses threats to his image of himself as the strongest. Anyway, you're correct. This is a whole other topic.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

We didn't see enough of him to where I'd be comfortable making any assumptions on whether or not he's boasting. That said, the line from the bonus chapter did seem to me like Toriyama was saying "Hey! Look how crazy powerful these Artificial Humans are!"

[ABED]

We didn't see enough of him to where I'd be comfortable making any assumptions on whether or not he's boasting. That said, the line from the bonus chapter did seem to me like Toriyama was saying "Hey! Look how crazy powerful these Artificial Humans are!"

Fair point, but I don't take villains' taunts at face value.

[floofychan333]

What do you mean by unfair?

The whole last arc of DB was building up to Piccolo, and while he had a good run as a villain, instantly introducing Vegeta kicked Piccolo to the curb way sooner than what should have happened. Toriyama just did so much work developing Piccolo, giving him a great backstory, amazing powers, and showing his transformation into a hero. Piccolo didn't even survive long enough to fight the main villain, which even Kuririn did, he was dead during the search for the Namekian DB's, he didn't stand a chance against the Androids, when he finally got to be on par with a SSJ Vegeta and Cell showed up almost instantly and pushed him to the background before he could even have a lengthy fight with 17, he wasn't able to do anything against Cell, and he was relegated to being a babysitter for Goten and Trunks in the Buu arc. Now, this may sound similar to what guys like Tenshinhan and Yamcha have gone through, but Piccolo was intended to stick around as Goku's foil for a long time and simply got tossed aside too quickly.

Piccolo wasn't kicked to the curb in the Saiyan arc. He had a great arc and served a narrative purpose. That shows great "respect" for his character. And why does it matter if Toriyama intended something? Is that even true?

He died before Goku even showed up and he was built up so much that it's really a shame we couldn't have seen him do something of note in another arc.

[ABED]

It was neccessary for the story that he died when he did. That's not disrespectful, it's drama. I find it bizarre that you take that as a knock against him. His arc and his death in the Saiyan arc was one of the best moments in the entire series. And we saw Piccolo fight evenly against Freeza's second form and without him, Goku would've died before he was able to complete the Genki Dama. Those things are noteable. I'm unsure what exactly you take to be noteworthy other than what appears to mean "defeat the big bad or contribute to killing the big bad". I find that to be limited thinking.