The manga's ending vs GT's ending

[Basaku]

The point of introducing Oob was to say to us "Even after Goku's gone, there will always be someone to protect the Earth". He doesn't need fixing as far as I'm concerned.

But the series already had a giant cast of Earth protectors and an entire new generation growing up.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

The point of introducing Oob was to say to us "Even after Goku's gone, there will always be someone to protect the Earth". He doesn't need fixing as far as I'm concerned.

But the series already had a giant cast of Earth protectors and an entire new generation growing up.

Yes, but Toriyama had ended up writing them in such a way where none of them cared about self-improvement enough to make for Earth's primary protector. The good reincarnation of Majin Boo, someone with limitless potential just waiting to be unlocked, served the purpose just fine. If the ending had been about Oob, I'd get where you guys are coming from, but it isn't. The ending is about Goku training Oob to fight him seriously one day, while also ensuring that the Earth is insured. Oob didn't need a personality.

[Cipher]

This is something I've waffled on over the years. A while back, I would have said I preferred GT's ending fully, for the way it seems a better conclusion to the series as a whole, whereas the manga's ending was always a better stopping point for Goku's character.

I've warmed to the manga's ending considerably since then. My main misgiving with it the last time I wrote a full post on the subject was the way it failed to cap off the story of titular objects of the series, therein somewhat shirking responsibility to recognize its increasingly ensemble development as characters came together in search of them. The Dragon Balls themselves really aren't much spotlighted by the manga's ending, but they do get a last hurrah in the fight against Boo, at the very least. The way they've been "abused" as a fix-all is only a dangling plot point if you're more cynical about the world of the series than I think Toriyama ever intended to be (in his mind the Dragon Balls are largely forces for good because the characters make them so). As an ending for all the characters, it's just about right. Any character with dangling development is offered a fitting conclusion over the course of the Boo arc. Goku's final arc, his increasingly cavalier and dangerous attitude as his power and boredom increase, is resolved in its epilogue. Oob may be a non-character, but he's exactly the type of healthy outlet Goku needs: a pupil rather than a rival, someone who loves to fight but may be a more compassionate and level-headed protector than Goku could ever hope to be. Tonally, it's as open and hopeful as a long-running Toriyama series deserves.

GT's ending, and there's no reason we can't take both, especially with the way GT continually references anime-specific bits of the mythology, is incredibly un-Toriyama, but that's exactly what makes it feel worthwhile and interesting as a self-consistent alternate take. It differs from his ending not only in its morality, but in its treatment of the series as a meta object. Toriyama sees nothing wrong with ending the manga with what, character resolution aside, would simply be another arc in its ongoing story. Toei feels resolved to respond to the series as it exists in the real world by that point: a decade-long epic with nostalgic roots for many of its viewers. Hence it ends in heartfelt retrospective. Toriyama would only ever look forward, and his series bears that out until its end. That's fitting. That's fine. On the other hand, Toei was conscious of the benefits of looking back. GT is full of homages, in terms of both story content and ancillary visuals (its intros and outros, etc.), and its final episode similarly bears that out with its roll of footage taken from the whole of the series.

Of the two endings' differing moralities, Toriyama remains resolute in the ultimate, accidental goodness of his universe. The Dragon Balls are amoral, but they're mostly used for the benefit of others, and the cynicism surrounding their potential for misuse is addressed directly at about the one-third mark when Goku defends their existence to literally-God. Goku is selfish, but his actions have largely positive outcomes because of his trusting nature. It's not interested in imparting anything that rejects those ideas (nor does it make a real moral statement out of them, courting instead a kind of ultimate amoral whimsy). GT on the other hand, spins the series so that its events are build-up to the ultimate lesson in self-responsibility. Obviously the Dragon Balls themselves, and Goku, two instruments the cast has come to rely on, get whisked away. But the entire series sees the real world slowly replacing the fantastic elements. The cities and fashions grow more vaguely realistic (look at the architecture present in the final fight against the Evil Dragons). The characters are moving into more settled phases of their lives. The fantastic elements -- from the Dragon Balls to Boo to Goku to Piccolo -- are one by one swept off the table. In our sole sustained glimpse into this world's future, the old fantastic martial arts have all but vanished; Goku Jr. sees his wish granted not by collecting all of the magical objects, but by proving his perseverance and resolve in finding one.

It's the kind of ending Toriyama would never dream of writing, in just about every conceivable way, but on the whole GT is kind of a profoundly un-Toriyama-response to the material to precede it to begin with. It's a different, but consistent, take on the world. In the end it feels worthwhile for those differences. My answer is that both endings are fine.

[Basaku]

Yes, but Toriyama had ended up writing them in such a way where none of them cared about self-improvement enough to make for Earth's primary protector. The good reincarnation of Majin Boo, someone with limitless potential just waiting to be unlocked, served the purpose just fine. If the ending had been about Oob, I'd get where you guys are coming from, but it isn't. The ending is about Goku training Oob to fight him seriously one day, while also ensuring that the Earth is insured. Oob didn't need a personality.

Vegeta, Piccolo, Tien etc. So no, obviously the series had multiple fighters who were equally about self-improvement as Goku

And the ending WAS about Uub. Toriyama literally puts him into Goku's spot and only him. This ain't an ending that allows everyone to headcanon "ohh Piccolo will be the protector in my headcanon, or Vegeta, or I will write this reincarnation of Cell who will be protector". He forces the successor introduced in the last 5 seconds of the 10 years long saga.

Uub wouldn't need personality if the point of EOZ was, for example, about finding new God of Destruction because let's say Beerus died for some reason and Goku picks Uub for the role. But EOZ ain't about that, it's about replacing the role the audience actually cares deeply about, the main protagonist

[Cipher]

And the ending WAS about Uub. Toriyama literally puts him into Goku's spot and only him. This ain't an ending that allows everyone to headcanon "ohh Piccolo will be the protector in my headcanon, or Vegeta, or I will write this reincarnation of Cell who will be protector". He forces the successor introduced in the last 5 seconds of the 10 years long saga.

The ending isn't about Oob. It's about Goku. Oob is a complete cipher, though his background indicates he may be a bit more morally conscientious than his master, which I'd argue is slightly important for reading it as a positive ending.

Toriyama isn't interested in where readers' headcanons go after that, because the series wasn't intended to continue from there.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

And the ending WAS about Uub. Toriyama literally puts him into Goku's spot and only him. This ain't an ending that allows everyone to headcanon "ohh Piccolo will be the protector in my headcanon, or Vegeta, or I will write this reincarnation of Cell who will be protector".

You're confusing the intent behind the ending with the natural consequence of it.

[Basaku]

And the ending WAS about Uub. Toriyama literally puts him into Goku's spot and only him. This ain't an ending that allows everyone to headcanon "ohh Piccolo will be the protector in my headcanon, or Vegeta, or I will write this reincarnation of Cell who will be protector". He forces the successor introduced in the last 5 seconds of the 10 years long saga.

The ending isn't about Oob. It's about Goku. Oob is a complete cipher, though his background indicates he may be a bit more morally conscientious than his master, which I'd argue is slightly important for reading it as a positive ending.

Toriyama isn't interested in where readers' headcanons go after that, because the series wasn't intended to continue from there.

If it was about Goku he would have Pan ride the cloud with him in the final panel.

[Cipher]

If it was about Goku he would have Pan ride the cloud with him in the final panel.

Why? Maybe Pan could operate in the same way Oob does for Goku, but I think it's a slightly more fitting ending for his character to have that last release/outlet be his final rival/villain, just as he'd wanted. Pan is there to help reinforced the idea of a new generation, though.

I think you're in for a seriously uphill battle if you're trying to convince anyone that the ending has its eyes on "Let's get the audience excited for Oob, a brand-new character!" rather than "Let's find a way to end Goku's character arc."

[Jinzoningen MULE]

If it was about Goku he would have Pan ride the cloud with him in the final panel.

Why? Maybe Pan could operate in the same way Oob does for Goku, but I think it's a slightly more fitting ending for his character to have that last release/outlet be his final rival/villain, just as he'd wanted. Pan is there to help reinforced the idea of a new generation, though.

I think you're in for a seriously uphill battle if you're trying to convince anyone that the ending has its eyes on "Let's get the audience excited for Oob, a brand-new character!" rather than "Let's find a way to end Goku's character arc."

I agree, but I don't think you addressed the most obvious point here. What on God's green Earth does Pan have to do with whether the ending was about Goku or not?

[DonAce]

I understand what the manga was going for, but I don't think it was totally pulled off too well. I mean, the ending starts with Bulma complaining because Goku hasn't seen her in 5 years and then he flies off and we see the absolutely stunned reactions of his family as he flies off with a total stranger. Feels like a gut punch and it's hard for me to read, to be honest. GT's ending feels quite nice and fluffy in comparison, almost too much so. It's a bit fanservicey and leans on the corny side, but I really enjoyed it anyway. Doesn't feel like anything Toriyama himself would ever write, which is a good and bad thing.

[Basaku]

If it was about Goku he would have Pan ride the cloud with him in the final panel.

Why? Maybe Pan could operate in the same way Oob does for Goku, but I think it's a slightly more fitting ending for his character to have that last release/outlet be his final rival/villain, just as he'd wanted. Pan is there to help reinforced the idea of a new generation, though.

I think you're in for a seriously uphill battle if you're trying to convince anyone that the ending has its eyes on "Let's get the audience excited for Oob, a brand-new character!" rather than "Let's find a way to end Goku's character arc."

Or perhaps people who are trying very hard to convince themselves it was a good ending for Goku or the entire series itself are in for an uphill battle.

Not to even mention that this series already gave Goku the 'outlet' of competing with his former rival/villain so no novelty to be found here either.

I agree, but I don't think you addressed the most obvious point here. What on God's green Earth does Pan have to do with whether the ending was about Goku or not?

Maybe because she's his grand-daughter who's also happens to be very much into fighting? One would think an ending for Goku would sum up all elements of his character developed throughout the saga which includes fighting, training but also the family he 'aquired' and which played a big part. Pan represents that, Uub doesn't.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Maybe because she's his grand-daughter who's also happens to be very much into fighting? One would think an ending for Goku would sum up all elements of his character developed throughout the saga which includes fighting, training but also the family he 'aquired' and which played a big part. Pan represents that, Uub doesn't.

I don't think you're evaluating this objectively. Goku's "acquisition", as you say, of his family doesn't mean anything. By the end of the Boo Arc, the focus on them was already gone. At best, you could say that if the ending isn't about Goku, Pan could have been a viable choice.

[Cipher]

Or perhaps people who are trying very hard to convince themselves it was a good ending for Goku or the entire series itself are in for an uphill battle.

So take me through your analysis then. What's your rationale for thinking the ending is focused on anything other than ending Goku's arc? The fact that it doesn't use a pre-existing character?

I'm getting more of a sense of frustration with what it promises for imagined future stories than with how it manages to close the one it's actually part of.

Anyway, is Goku suddenly supposed to learn to be a family man in the final chapters? His final arc involves his constant, increasingly problematic need to make reckless moves to find challenge and satisfaction. Oob nicely addresses that by being a healthier version of exactly what has always drawn Goku in. It's a solution that very directly invokes the problem. Pan is a less holistic cap in comparison, and a less satisfying final outlet, as the unresolved elements of his character at that point aren't about how well he does or doesn't treat his family.

Not to even mention that this series already gave Goku the 'outlet' of competing with his former rival/villain so no novelty to be found here either.

Competing rather than teaching. Vegeta's arc also wraps in the Boo arc, and the series always portrays Goku's chasing after continued rivalries with villains as being somewhat problematic. Hence someone like Oob being a step in a better direction while still being in line with what piques Goku's interests.

Which also addresses the point below:

At best, you could say that if the ending isn't about Goku, Pan could have been a viable choice.

While I do think Oob provides a better ending than a Pan spotlight would -- both because finally getting a healthy version of his long-sought-after villainous rivals, and having to actually tutor him, seems like a better finale for Goku, and because, as you said, we've been there and done that with his family by that point -- if I had one issue with the manga's ending, it would be that it feels a bit cluttered with both Pan and Oob.

Not that it's a huge issue, as there's no reason for the next generation to feel so compact.

[Kokonoe]

The deal was different this time because the circumstances were different. The Dragon Balls had never been overloaded with Minus Energy before. And Shen Long is technically a god. Who cares about whether Porunga has the same power? It's beyond the point of the story. That would just be useless exposition.

He is a god created by a Namekian on Earth, so his status as a god doesn't mean much in scenario compared to King Yemma, King Kai, etc. His status should put him below Kami and Dende which don't have the biggest sway in Other World.

Goku needing to fuse with the balls instead of destroy or recreate or come up with some alternative was highly unnecessary. He also made a deal with Shenron, except Shenron doesn't appear till later, further creating plot inconsistencies just to further the mystery surrounding what's actually occurring. Also, where would they even go? Generally when a wish is granted the balls shoot up straight in the sky and scatter, so it's not like Shenron has this side club house he's been saving the entire series when he doesn't feel like granting wishes anymore. I still don't understand how Goku made it to Hell to meet Piccolo, which should be impossible.

I think what you want is a ton of exposition. It's not a mystery. We don't know where exactly Goku is going, but we don't have to know. All we know is he's going away and not coming back. That's all you need to know. As for being rushed, the arc doesn't feel rushed at all. If anything, it feels stretched. The fight against the One Star Dragon drags quite a bit.

And what 180 are you talking about?

No, not really. I just want an ending that actually makes sense for the story and doesn't twist things to a bizarre degree to make the audience feel sad. An ending is meant to draw out feelings, but the way it's executed here is illogical and inconsistent.

[ABED]

He is a god created by a Namekian on Earth, so his status as a god doesn't mean much in scenario compared to King Yemma, King Kai, etc. His status should put him below Kami and Dende which don't have the biggest sway in Other World.

Clearly he has powers that go beyond those of his creator. He can bring people back from the dead, but Kami can't. Going to Hell shouldn't be a huge deal.

I just want an ending that actually makes sense for the story and doesn't twist things to a bizarre degree to make the audience feel sad. An ending is meant to draw out feelings, but the way it's executed here is illogical and inconsistent.

And your issues come down to not knowing everything. Circumstances are different by virtue of the balls having cracked open. Magic is inherently illogical. Your posts do imply that you want a TON of useless exposition. "Where are they going? How'd they get to Hell? How come Shen Long could talk to Goku without being summoned?

further the mystery surrounding what's actually occurring. Also, where would they even go?

Not a mystery because it doesn't matter where exactly they are going. We just know that he's going away and won't be coming back, at least not for a long time. The thing you are missing is that the Dragon Balls cracked due to overload. It was a huge change from what came before.

Goku dies, abandons his entire family forever, becomes one with Shenron basically meaning he ceases to exist or becomes a different entity altogether, and then 100 years later we see an elderly Pan who must think she's going crazy as she frantically searches for her grandfather she thought was long dead, and still doesn't find him.

It's dark, it's sad, and it has absolutely no place in a story like Dragon Ball. Not to mention it doesn't make any sense and is never explained how the hell Goku becomes immortal against Omega in the first place, or what precisely happened to him. It's not even one of those things where it's "left open to interpretation" because it makes it fairly clear that yes, he's dead. The circumstances revolving around his death and how he won against Omega though aren't explained, and don't make a lick of sense.

Goku Jr. and Vegeta Jr. are just retarded as concepts. If they wanted to leave a lasting impression of the next generation, don't make literal carbon copies of Goku and Vegeta, even down to their stupid "Jr." names.

And what do you mean by no amount of fleshing out will salvage Uub? The problem with the character was that we knew nothing about him, and then Goku flies away with him after we just met him, and that's how the story ends. If Uub was fleshed out and we got to know him a bit more before him and Goku went off together, that would have very easily solved the problem with Z's ending, and the character of Uub himself.

Again with the abandoning issue. He's not abandoning them. He made a deal with Shen Long and a noble one at that. The cost is he has to leave. Death doesn't mean dark. Pan think she's crazy? You make is sound like she literally thinks she might have to go to an institution. Wow, just wow at your reasoning for Goku Jr. and Vegeta Jr. They aren't supposed to leave a huge lasting impression. It's just a nice treat for fans to see that Goku and Vegeta's lineages continue. It's a neat little coda, nothing more.

It would take more effort and time to flesh out Uub than it's worth. The story was wrapping up and to give the story the amount of time it would take to flesh him out would be anticlimactic. I like reading Cipher's posts. They are insightful and interesting even if I don't agree with them. I understand his point about Uub, and while putting Pan in that spot would change things, at least making it a member of Goku's family creates a connection with the audience easier than a complete stranger. I'm also not convinced Goku has an arc.

[TheMikado]

GT period, I could make a long drawn out post but the fact of the matter is that GT ends the story on what the franchise started with and the title of the franchise. Dragonball, it was never MegaFightTheNextGuy. This is why the manga ending is so unsatisfying. Goku is no Superman looking to train his Superman jr. but he's presented as that. In GT he "sacrifices" himself which is basically what Goku has always done. Not looked for ways to impose justice but will willingly be the one to take on the responsibilities. Even the dialogue with Omega and Goku at the end where Omega says this is Gokus fault and Gokubattenpts to justify their use of the Dragonballs for selfless reasons. It acknowledges Gokus entire life and the journey to get there like any good ending should.

Making the ending of the series of Dragonball about the Dragonballs should be a no brainer as to the acknowledgment of the entire journey in full.

[successoroffate]

GT's ending all the way. I get closure from it. The passing of the torch to the new generation and having the main character dying is really the icing on the cake. To this day, I still find brilliant the way they implied Goku's death . Goku saying "Shenlong's back sure is warm" really breaks my emotions. Took me years and a couple of reruns/DVDs to really understand the meaning of such powerful scene.I still get goosebumps from just thinking about it. Not to mention the final credits playing along with DAN DAN Kokoro Hikareteku.

[Basaku]

Maybe because she's his grand-daughter who's also happens to be very much into fighting? One would think an ending for Goku would sum up all elements of his character developed throughout the saga which includes fighting, training but also the family he 'aquired' and which played a big part. Pan represents that, Uub doesn't.

I don't think you're evaluating this objectively. Goku's "acquisition", as you say, of his family doesn't mean anything. By the end of the Boo Arc, the focus on them was already gone. At best, you could say that if the ending isn't about Goku, Pan could have been a viable choice.

Anyway, is Goku suddenly supposed to learn to be a family man in the final chapters?

Do not confuse memes and memes-turned-Super with what actually happened in a decade proceeding EOZ. Goku obviously wasn't the model family man and a perfect BFF but multiple times his care for family and friends was shown and explored and they were very important part of the saga involved in key moment that would drive the plot and change the course of the action. You do remember that Goku turned SSJ because of Krillin's death right? Or how he sacrificed himself to protect Gohan/Piccolo and defeat Radditz?

To have an ending that figuratevily and literally has Goku abandon all his friends and family for some guy he never met before "because so stronk" is an unfitting ending to the saga and the character. Maybe it would work better now with Super retroactively adding more of selfish and brain-dead meme Goku writing but that's post-fact developement.

[ABED]

GT is another person's take on Toriyama's material. It doesn't truly get Toriyama's voice and the execution is messy, so I can see why it doesn't work for some, but it works for me none the less. I like all different sorts of endings, and acknowledge that Z's is perfectly in character for Goku, but GT's is also in character for him. I prefer finality from an ending, especially after such a long run. I don't think Goku dying is dark, it's simply bittersweet, but what is death in DB? It's not the end, it's just the end of Goku's story.

[Cipher]

Do not confuse memes and memes-turned-Super with what actually happened in a decade proceeding EOZ. Goku obviously wasn't the model family man and a perfect BFF but multiple times his care for family and friends was shown and explored and they were very important part of the saga involved in key moment that would drive the plot and change the course of the action. You do remember that Goku turned SSJ because of Krillin's death right? Or how he sacrificed himself to protect Gohan/Piccolo and defeat Radditz?

To have an ending that figuratevily and literally has Goku abandon all his friends and family for some guy he never met before "because so stronk" is an unfitting ending to the saga and the character. Maybe it would work better now with Super retroactively adding more of selfish and brain-dead meme Goku writing but that's post-fact developement.

If you go through my post history you'll find I'm no great fan of Super's character writing or memes replacing decades-long understandings of the characters.

Of course I remember Goku's anger over Kuririn's death. I remember their handshake as Goku went off to fight Vegeta. I remember him telling Gohan how proud he is at multiple points.

I also remember his arguing with Kuririn to let Vegeta live when it put all their loved ones at risk. I remember him telling Kaio he would never forgive him if he could stay to finish his fight with Freeza. I remember him electing to stay dead after the Cell Games in part because of the promise of fighting strong guys in the afterlife when he'd been through and done everything on Earth (voluntary abandonment #1!). I remember him electing not to stop Boo because of boredom/curiosity in the younger generation. I also remember, for years before Super was a twinkle in anyone's eye, thinking it felt like a perfectly fitting ending to see all of that wrapped up in an ending that used a good version of that last villain (especially with the next generation of his family wanting to do their own things). That also works especially well after an implied ten years of ennui, Bulma saying she hasn't seen Goku in five years, etc.

Pan would offer a servicable ending in some ways, but she wouldn't address that streak, which by that point has been the cornerstone of conflict and development with Goku's character since arguably the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai. The issue is never that he doesn't love his family enough; it's that he arguably loves his rivals and enemies more.