What If: Toriyama Retired?

[ABED]

I go with Cipher on this, Toriyama is DB. There are plenty of talented artists and writers out there, but Toriyama has a unique voice that makes DB what it is. At best, another writer can approximate his voice, but won't capture it all the way.

[PsionicWarrior]

I go with Cipher on this, Toriyama is DB. There are plenty of talented artists and writers out there, but Toriyama has a unique voice that makes DB what it is. At best, another writer can approximate his voice, but won't capture it all the way.

You can add me to that bandwagon.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I go with Cipher on this, Toriyama is DB. There are plenty of talented artists and writers out there, but Toriyama has a unique voice that makes DB what it is. At best, another writer can approximate his voice, but won't capture it all the way.

That's what I want to say, but then I'd have to apply the same standard to GT, a series that I actually like. I'll probably quit DB once Toriyama quits. In fact, it's a near certainty, but not because I don't think it can be reproduced, because I think GT was a fair, if imperfect approximation. I plan on dropping it once he leaves because it's a natural stopping point and I do want this series to end. That said, if Toriyama quits, and the subsequent material makes a huge leap in quality, I'll check it out, and a may even follow it through to the end. I just find that possibility very unlikely.

[Kunzait_83]

Count me in with Cipher and ABED as well.

Not to be a permanent broken record, but discussions like THIS one are EXACTLY why I eventually ended up going to the absurd lengths that I did in the Wuxia writeup.

For far too long now - since the series 2nd genesis as a mainstream North American phenomenon in the late 90s/early 2000s - most of the core aspects of Dragon Ball (the martial arts fantasy and style of hyper kinetic, explosive, high flying fighting, the views on fighting and martial arts training as a way of life espoused by its central characters, numerous aspects of its world building, its combining of slapstick comedy, drama, and kung fu action, etc) has been mistakenly and incorrectly pegged by its later North American fanbase as being either startlingly original or else otherwise misplaced as coming from other Japanese Shonen stories. When the reality is that it all stems from a much older and bigger/broader genre of martial arts fantasy fiction that the current Western fanbase unfortunately has often demonstrated almost no familiarity with whatsoever.

That's not to say that DB isn't entirely unoriginal and contains no fresh take of its own on said genre; but the real source of DB's uniqueness can be traced entirely at the feet of Toriyama himself. He, and moreover his one of a kind visual style and unmistakable sense of irreverent humor and whimsy, are what separates Dragon Ball from countless other sprawling magical martial arts sagas exactly like it dating back a great many years before it. You take Toriyama out of the equation, and DB is just another in a miles long list of disposable Wuxia franchises, of which Asia has a metric fuckton of.

If Dragon Ball's martial arts fantasy visuals and ethos and ancient Asia/sci fi hybrid world aren't what makes it unique and original, then the only thing on the list that you're really left with is Toriyama and his sensibilities. That's the key factor that separates Dragon Ball so staunchly from the rest of the Wuxia pack and makes it stand out as not just something unique, but downright unforgettably and unmistakably distinct. Dragon Ball isn't just a martial arts fantasy epic, its Akira "Dragon Quest, Chrono Trigger, Dr. Slump" Toriyama's martial arts fantasy epic. With all the quirkiness and peerlessly striking design-sense that that entails.

Contrary to the view that a lot of people (depressingly) have in this thread and in many other similar threads on here, Dragon Ball ISN'T just another cash cow franchise. Again, this is a series whose popularity and pop culture relevance has not only sustained itself, but positively THRIVED for well over a DECADE after it had ended, without producing almost ANY new content whatsoever. This is NOT normal for anything else out there.

Dragon Ball is a pop culture and financial juggernaut, yes, but its the rare kind that is author and creator driven. The material that got it this far for all these decades now, virtually ALL of it came from the mind and pen of Toriyama and very, VERY exceedingly few others. Not only has DB never truly been driven by corporate committee (at least not for any substantially extended period of time) before recently, but I argue that it will VERY quickly lose whatever spark or luster that it had for so long sustained itself on beforehand if it should ever truly fully succumb to that.

Things like GT and Super are but a small taste of what a true and fully 100% corporate/writer's room-driven Dragon Ball would actually look like, and the results of that I assure you won't be pretty.

This series has ALWAYS from moment one to now lived and died on the talent and one of a kind artistic voice of Akira Toriyama. Period. You take that away, and Dragon Ball becomes something very, very much generic and indistinguishable from countless others of its ilk in the Wuxia genre, nevermind probably whatever other fleetingly popular Shonen flavor of the moment the higher ups at Toei will almost certainly want to inject into the mix.

And once that happens, everything that was genuinely gripping and striking and enduring for so many decades now will cave in on itself and dissipate. Leaving you ultimately with just another run of the mill action show. Kinda like what FUNimation themselves had tried so hard and for so long (and yet somehow, still kinda failed despite themselves) to homogenize the original series into.

Its already kinda in a half and half, one foot in/one foot out grey area of that with Super right now. Without Toriyama, this universe is spackled together haphazardly with toothpicks and scotch tape. It was never built to last without him. And Toriyama isn't going to want to, nor should be expected, to just crank out endless Dragon Ball forever and ever until he croaks solely just for your benefit. He ended it in 1995 for a damn good reason: he churned it out once a week, every week nonstop for 11 years, and simultaneously did work on the side for the anime WHILE he was busting his ass hardcore on the manga week to week. Burning himself out mentally and creatively in the process. He more than earned the retirement from all things DB, and I personally think its beyond ridiculous that so many fans in the current space seem to often act at times like I dunno... almost like they're entitled to or owed more material from the guy.

This is why I've insisted for so long that present fans need to just let this series go for the love of god. It had an AMAZING run of 11 years, 42 manga volumes, over a dozen anime movies, and almost 500 anime TV episodes. Most anime NEVER get runs even approaching that level of density and longevity (fewer still get even longer), and are rarely so beloved for so long after their end. Dragon Ball is in VERY select rare company here. There's been MORE than enough material there since 1995 to keep fans immersed in this world for literal generations now (plural).

Mike didn't start this website originally until a year AFTER GT had originally ended, and not only is it still here, not only is Mike himself still kicking it, he's kept an entire podcast devoted to nothing but talking about and analyzing all things Dragon Ball for roughly 13 years now and still going strong as we speak. All devoted to material that is ultimately finite, however sprawling and dense. Think about that for a moment. Really stop to appreciate how UNHEARD OF that normally is.

I'll never even begin to fathom where this bottomless hunger for "more more more!" comes from in fandom today, this almost gluttonous "too much is never enough" view of Dragon Ball where its like a smack addiction and you gotta get another hit of fresh shit, as if the bazillions of other chapters and episodes that came before were all just a disposable drop in the bucket that don't matter.

Explore other anime and manga. Non-Shonen anime and manga, of which there's a whole vast universe's worth, if the current landscape of Shonen fluff is too samey and formulaic (and it most certainly is). Explore other Wuxia, if you want more stuff that's much more along the lines of Dragon Ball, but also goes even farther into other directions. Explore other Toriyama series, if you want more of what the guy as a singular creative talent has to offer. There's an ENDLESS GALAXY of art and media that exists out there that you've never even imagined existed, much less heard of. Take that trite, groan-worthy (but accurate!) Shonen attitude and mindset of "Its a great big world full of sights and adventure, so lets go explore it!" to heart and actually put it into practice instead of just endlessly reading about it.

Move on already. Let go of the past and let go of childhood. Grow into other things and explore what else art, literature, animation, comics, and all sorts of other creative fiction has to offer both a growing and adult mind.

[sintzu]

I'm so connected to the original that I'll always keep up with the franchise even if I don't care about what they're doing. I may not watch it every week and buy its new peoducts but I'll at the very least know what's going on with it.

[Totamo]

Toriyama reputation isn't as high as it used to be. People tend to overestimate his brand name.

Dragon Ball was still being made after he retired in 95, some more successful than others.

[Kunzait_83]

Dragon Ball was still being made after he retired in 95, some more successful than others.

Aside from GT (which barely lasted 2 years before ending in overall failure) it generally wasn't. Some video games were made. Old stuff was re-released a bunch of times. That's largely about it. Even Kai doesn't really count as anything other than another re-release of old material (remixed and rescrambled).

BoG is the first new DB material of substance since GT ended in '97. Before that all you really have is the JSAT special and Episode of Bardock shortly before it, both of which are pure fluff (hell Episode of Bardock is little more than a fucking commercial for a trading card game).

This series was stone cold DEAD for well past a decade and a half after it ended, and kept "alive" purely by fan enthusiasm, particularly in the U.S. where a whole new generation of kids were discovering it for the first time only well AFTER it was all over with.

In fact, I'm fairly sure that its primarily BECAUSE most U.S. fans didn't get into it until insanely later on after it was over that so many of them are so apt to take for granted exactly how long and how thoroughly DB was dead and gone for before this recent revival. Its easy to do that when its all still new to you as far as you're concerned.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I'll never even begin to fathom where this bottomless hunger for "more more more!" comes from in fandom today, this almost gluttonous "too much is never enough" view of Dragon Ball where its like a smack addiction and you gotta get another hit of fresh shit, as if the bazillions of other chapters and episodes that came before were all just a disposable drop in the bucket that don't matter.

That's a nice speech, but I disagree with the framing here. Firstly, is anyone actually demanding new material? I know there are many of us who have expectations, but unless I've missed something, most people are fine with what we're getting, and would probably be fine if it stopped. After all, the fandom existed for how long before BoG happened? 17-ish years? Even then, no one knew how permanent the revival would be until the inception of RoF. Maybe it's because we've traveled in different circles at different times, but I don't see this hunger that you've referenced.

Secondly, while it may be diluted at the moment, who's to say that the series won't catch a second wind once Toriyama jumps ship. Good god, Star Trek is about to go into its 6th 7th series! And for the most part, despite reversionings and reimaginings and restructurings of the original premise, it's remained intact (movies aside). I'll admit it shouldn't be expected, but if that does happen, will you really ignore it just because it isn't within its previous confines? Forgive me for suggesting that you may be a bit close-minded here.

[Zephyr]

is anyone actually demanding new material?

When people really enjoy something, and it ends, that can leave people craving for more. I don't know if 'demanding' is a good word, but there'd certainly long been a vocal yearning for more new Dragon Ball. Things like AF and Hoshi took off for a reason. Things like the JSAT, Battle of Gods, and the announcement of Super were all sorts of exciting here for a reason.

who's to say that the series won't catch a second wind once Toriyama jumps ship.

I think the overall point that Cipher, ABED, and Kunzait are touching on is that there is no second third wind without Toriyama (we're pretty much in Toriyama's second wind right now). Toriyama himself is the wind. It's what makes Dragon Ball what it is. It's what keeps it from being just another wuxia comic/cartoon.

As a franchise? As a product? As a thing that sells merch and makes bank? Yeah, sure, the franchise will catch more wind after Toriyama jumps ship. That's not the point of contention, though.

I certainly think it's possible that folks like Toyotaro and Dragon Garow LEE could capture part of his unique style of whimsy, but it still wouldn't be the same. And, at this point, given how much Dragon Ball material already exists within the original run alone, we're not really in need of a successor to capture his whimsy. I'll still follow, and likely enjoy, the stuff, but in no way do we need it.

[ABED]

I remember a few years back, Mike began watching GT from the beginning (I don't know if he ever finished it) and he used a phrase that's something like "It's Dragon Ball, but not quite". Now I know what he means. There's a quirkiness to it that is like DB, but it also has a melancholy feel to it which just isn't DB. I like the ending a lot, but I could never see Toriyama coming up with that type of ending.

Kunzait brings up writers rooms and unless Toriyama was at the helm, It will only come across as not quite DB. I love Supernatural and still enjoy it even well after the creator not only stepped down as showrunner but left the writing staff altogether. There have been great seasons since and even some of the series' best episodes, but the show doesn't quite have Eric Kripke's voice. I don't foresee Toriyama taking on the duties of a showrunner just to keep the stories consistent with his voice.

[Basaku]

What is the difference between Dragon Ball and a bog-standard wuxia story? Toriyama.

Which is why I say any ongoing material is faced with either having to not be immediately recognizable as Dragon Ball, in which case it may as well be something else with freedom to fit the author's vision, or a Toriyama emulation, which is unexciting at best.

Modern/contemporay(-ish) setting, alternatively futuristic. Same goes for majority of western popular fiction. Nothing is original anymore and everything draws from something else including ancient stories, mythology and fiction but modern popular entertainment draws primarly from early XX century works, including Toriyama. At no point I'm saying there wasn't a stroke of genius in the particular mixing of tropes, themes and elements in creation of his Dragon Ball universe, but it was still cool/engaging characters and story that catapulted this (and other) particular universe into popularity. Without that it wouldn't happen and while few may come close to Toriyama's ability to mix elements so succesfully, the ability to create interesting characters and tell good stories is far more universal AND applicable regardless of the universe in question.

People used to argue only Lucas could get the "uniquely mixed" Star Wars universe (which in itself was a newer take on Flash Gordon and that was an early-century take on classic fantasy, turning dragons into space monsters and horses and carriages into spaceships). But he allowed other authors to come in and while a ton of subpar quality work has emerged because of that where the authors clearly struggled to grasp the concepts of Star Wars universe, we also got stories and new ideas that if not eclipsed Lucas' vision and sensibility in mixing various elements (like Toriyama), then at least matched it. Same goes for X-men and Stan Lee. No one will question's Lee's genius, but that doesn't mean his creations are impossible for other artists to understand and work with adding meaningful and worthy contributions that make the whole ordeal of opening up the original concept to other artists completly worth it, even if mistakes happen along the road.

I want the series to continue because Toriyama created a wonderfull engaging universe that absolutely can go on indefinitely and tell countless stories, look at its own elements in a variety of different ways, reinvent itself and realign in multiple different fashions etc. Other artists can succesfully contribute to this universe without being Toriyama themselves.

[sintzu]

I remember a few years back, Mike began watching GT from the beginning and he used a phrase that's something like "It's Dragon Ball, but not quite".

I don't foresee Toriyama taking on the duties of a showrunner just to keep the stories consistent with his voice.

That's how the Super anime feels as well, especially during the Toei only material. It really stands out compared to what Toriyama writes and not in a good way.

I don't think he'll do anything major but I think he might prevent it from turning into something like DB heroes.

[Kunzait_83]

That's a nice speech, but I disagree with the framing here. Firstly, is anyone actually demanding new material? I know there are many of us who have expectations, but unless I've missed something, most people are fine with what we're getting, and would probably be fine if it stopped. After all, the fandom existed for how long before BoG happened? 17-ish years? Even then, no one knew how permanent the revival would be until the inception of RoF. Maybe it's because we've traveled in different circles at different times, but I don't see this hunger that you've referenced.

I have to question if we've been traveling on the same planet in the same dimension, much less the same circles. Ever since Kai, people in this forum community alone have gotten positively orgasmic at the very notion of Dragon Ball coming back and continuing on in some form. Even then, early on, the desire for more new stuff seemed to reach a borderline ravenous frenzy, never mind the fact that Kai itself wasn't even anything the least bit new at all to begin with.

The JSAT special was as inconsequential a piece of nothing as a DB short film can get, but people in this community went positively ballistic in anticipation for it. From there on, every other discussion on this forum seemed to teem with people practically soiling their drawers at the very notion of getting more Dragon Ball material, including a whole brand new series with Toriyama returning (well long before we actually got Super).

This whole "More new Dragon Ball! Come back now Toriyama!" sentiment has been a very strongly recurring thing in fandom, certainly on this forum, since at least 2009. Hell, I can't count the number of people who have said what they'd really want is for Dragon Ball to continue making new anime and manga material forever and ever.

This fanbase has been a great many things, but "satisfied with what was already there" was far, FAR from one of them as of the last 7 or 8-ish years. And also the fact that it had gone for more than 15 years without anything new and still retaining such rabid interest and enthusiasm was PRECISELY part of my point as to why clamoring for more new material being made is so ridiculous in the first place. The series was already long and dense enough to more than sustain for this long, this many years after. There's never been any NEED for more. It went on for arguably longer than it even should've in its day.

Secondly, while it may be diluted at the moment, who's to say that the series won't catch a second wind once Toriyama jumps ship. Good god, Star Trek is about to go into its 6th 7th series! And for the most part, despite reversionings and reimaginings and restructurings of the original premise, it's remained intact (movies aside). I'll admit it shouldn't be expected, but if that does happen, will you really ignore it just because it isn't within its previous confines? Forgive me for suggesting that you may be a bit close-minded here.

......

Me: "Y'know guys, I think Dragon Ball had its time, lasted a good long while, but seeing as how its been over with for so long and bringing it back now suddenly and eventually without any input from Toriyama would probably only dilute and damage the magic. Maybe instead of clinging to the past we ought to instead just cling to DB's spirit and explore brand new material and horizons that we've never experienced before outside of Dragon Ball, taking with us the notion of "adventure" that so many seemed to get out of Shonen and using it to launch us forward towards brand new things and new experiences to grow and change off of, following in the example of the characters in DB.

Kanz: "How do you know that the new DB material won't actually be good, huh? You're just being closed-minded!"

[Cypher]

I feel like it's not really an issue of the quality of potential future product in the Dragon Ball franchise; what is at issue is does there actually NEED to be any, and to me the answer is 'no'. That doesn't mean that I won't sample what IS produced, and indeed very likely enjoy at least some of that which is produced, but any necessity involved derives from both money to be gained (on the part of the companies who own the various properties) and fan demand, which is, in my opinion, very much in evidence online- and, it goes without saying, on this very forum also. I don't think that demand is necessarily in and of itself of a deleterious nature, as it represents a powerful interest in 'Dragon Ball' in general, but the fact, in my opinion, unequivocally remains that there are some currents in the Dragon Ball fandom that are never satisfied with what we're given. To my mind, this is a self-defeating approach. Irrespective of this, I doubt very much that there is anything whatever to be gained from accusing other posters of being 'close-minded', particularly when outright disparaging a contrary view in the same post.

[ABED]

I'm very much with Kunzait on this one. Revivals in general are often mediocre or terrible. The magic is often lost in the intervening years. It can happen for any number of reasons. Out of all of them that I've seen, Veronica Mars is about the only one that I've really enjoyed. That was a case where the revival was necessary because the story never got a proper conclusion. DB has had several. Ultimately, I simply like seeing stories come to satisfying conclusions as opposed to being endlessly drawn out.

I would like to address that issue of "need". Technically none of it needed to exist, not even the original series, so I don't see the point in that argument.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I think the overall point that Cipher, ABED, and Kunzait are touching on is that there is no second third wind without Toriyama (we're pretty much in Toriyama's second wind right now). Toriyama himself is the wind. It's what makes Dragon Ball what it is. It's what keeps it from being just another wuxia comic/cartoon.

I wouldn't call this a second wind, more like a gentle breeze. Not even close to what it once was. As for Toriyama being the foundation of DB, I disagree. I certainly think his style laid the foundation for everything that Dragon Ball is, but to say that the integrity or usefulness of the series hinges on one man strikes me as close-minded purism.

I would like to address that issue of "need". Technically none of it needed to exist, not even the original series, so I' don't see the point in that argument.

That's my perspective as well.

[ABED]

I think the overall point that Cipher, ABED, and Kunzait are touching on is that there is no second third wind without Toriyama (we're pretty much in Toriyama's second wind right now). Toriyama himself is the wind. It's what makes Dragon Ball what it is. It's what keeps it from being just another wuxia comic/cartoon.

I wouldn't call this a second wind, more like a gentle breeze. Not even close to what it once was. As for Toriyama being the foundation of DB, I disagree. I certainly think his style laid the foundation for everything that Dragon Ball is, but to say that the integrity or usefulness of the series hinges on one man strikes me as close-minded purism.

I would like to address that issue of "need". Technically none of it needed to exist, not even the original series, so I' don't see the point in that argument.

That's my perspective as well.

Maybe it's purism, I don't know, but the story was written and drawn by Toriyama. All 42 volumes were from him. He is absolutely the basis for DB. It's his world, his characters, his quirky sense of humor.

[Cypher]

Well, to the extent that I'm actually invested in this subject (i.e. not a great deal; I just came across this thread and thought I could give my 'two cents' with the rest), I think that in a scenario such as this, viz. one where a property existed in a to all intents and purposes 'complete' form in the anime and manga for many years, and has now been revitalised in quite a major way, questions regarding motivation and necessity are entirely reasonable, or at the very least by no means unreasonable; at the same time I can appreciate that you might disagree, and understand why, so I'm not really here to argue (primarily because I don't have a horse in the race, to be honest; some of what has been produced subsequent to the conclusion of the 'original' Dragon Ball manga and anime series has not been satisfactory to me personally, and some of it I have found enjoyable. As I said, no doubt I shall encounter that which is to come in some shape or form down the line, and will no doubt enjoy at least some of THAT, so for me it's win/ win in that taking and leaving is an option).

Addressing the concept of 'need' is, therefore, to me personally, not of vital importance by any means, but as it causes no harm, is a valid undertaking, but then I did not conceive of my previous post as particularly containing an argument, nor a particular point, so with that in mind I guess that's all I have to say off the top of my head.

[precita]

This is why I'm hoping after Super ends the franchise ends in terms of new material.

I don't mind Super, it's nice to see the series have one revival, but I don't want this being a continuous thing. I think Super will run for 200 episodes (hell we're almost at 100 episodes right now!) but after that it should end again.

[Basaku]

This is why I'm hoping after Super ends the franchise ends in terms of new material.

I don't mind Super, it's nice to see the series have one revival, but I don't want this being a continuous thing. I think Super will run for 200 episodes (hell we're almost at 100 episodes right now!) but after that it should end again.

I absolutely understand that some people would like stories with a definitive beginning and an end, it's a perfectly valid POV even if I don't share it on many occassions. But we all know the franchise will NOT end after Super. DB is once again a billion $ business for the companies involved so it's really, well, beside the point to discuss whether it should end anytime soon or not because it won't.

What I'm trying to say is that it's more of a matter of whether we want Toriyama to continue being the main force behind the story moving forward for as long as possible, say next 10 years, or maybe the series should already be incorporating other authors or do it sooner than later and begin the transition to post-Toriyama reality that will eventually happen anyway