Super: Yay or Nay?

[ekrolo2]

Toriyama is probably doing with Super the same thing he did with the F movie: ideas and events that maybe resemble a script if you're from Narnia. That's probably one of the key factors to it being kind of a mess on top of plenty of non-Toriyama problems that don't help matters.

I don't think saying that Super's problems come from a lack of a visual basis like a manga from Toriyama are accurate since Battle of Gods the movie managed to work just fine without that.

[Cipher]

Toriyama is probably doing with Super the same thing he did with the F movie: ideas and events that maybe resemble a script if you're from Narnia. That's probably one of the key factors to it being kind of a mess on top of plenty of non-Toriyama problems that don't help matters.

While I've never taken a look at the original, didn't Toriyama write F's entire script? It's nothing game-changing, but it's coherent enough for a fun insert story and well-characterized. I seem to be one of the few who enjoy it more or less without issue.

I do agree that a major issue for Super is a lack of visual guidance from Toriyama, or maybe more so that Toriyama's narratives are reliant on his visual execution (which isn't a knock against him, but an acknowledgement that he writes from the perspective of an artist, and moreover writes toward his particular idiosyncrasies and strengths).

Though it could certainly do with his character writing as a whole.

[hectorgf]

Nay, definitely.

I don't even need to extend myself about it. It's simples, the appeal of Dragon Ball is the characters and the fights.
If every character is ruined, flanderized, without any development, and the fights are just awful, then you have one of the worst anime ever made.

But Super helped me to see how good the original DB was. If you want to have the same experience, go for it and yay! hahaha.

[Puaru]

This is a tough question to answer.

Because on one hand, DBS isn't anywhere NEAR as good as the original manga/anime (I'm talking about both DB and DBZ). Comparing the two are sorta like comparing the Classic 1990's seasons of The Simpsons to the modern incarnation of the show. It's officially a continuation and features the same characters and are of the same genre, but the difference in quality between the current incarnation and the older material is absolutely enormous to the point of feeling like two completely different entities. The original DB manga/anime was truly a masterwork. Simplistic, yes, but a masterwork in it's simplicity. Appealing characters in awesome fights set within simple but effective and involving storylines. And at it's best, both the manga and to a lesser extent the anime had exquisite artwork. DBS on the other hand has turned most of the characters either into flanderized caricatures of themselves or simply not portrayed them frequently enough for the audience to have a connection with them anymore. (Like, who is Piccolo in DBS? Seriously, who is he, what kind of personality does he have, what is his purpose? Within the confines of DBS specifically (as opposed to the franchise as a whole), he is more a prop than a character, and so is Gohan, Krillin and most of the other supporting cast.) And then there is the lack of truly captivating storylines. DBS is a very predictable show with EXTREMELY simple and straightforward storylines. And then there is the fact that the vast majority of fights lack imagination, and are to brief and predictable to be suspenseful, and are furthered hampered a lot of the time by bad animation.

But with all of that said, DBS is still entertaining enough. It still has at least a few grains of the charm of the original manga/anime. The character of Goku might have reversed to the ultra simple-minded person he was at the very start of the original DB, but regardless he definitely have a clear and recognizable persona which is in itself faschinating to watch even when the events he is placed in aren't always that interesting. In this sense Goku is Mr Bean; a character that has such a unique way of reacting to the world around him that, as long as you enjoy the character, even just having him go shop for food becomes rather entertaining. And while the plot and action of DBS isn't even comparable to that of the original manga/anime, this is not the same as saying that it's HORRIBLE either. I feel that DBS can at least be entertaining in the way that an american action cartoon can be. It's neither much better nor much worse than, say, Ben 10. So basically, it's at least watchable.

Which is more than I can say for DB GT at least. That show made Goku bland and boring, and every storyline was a wholesale rip-off of previous DB storylines. God that show is a draaaaaaaaaaaaag.

[ABED]

every storyline was a wholesale rip-off of previous DB storylines

The Evil Dragons and Baby stories are ripoffs of which stories?

[sintzu]

DBS isn't anywhere NEAR as good as the original manga/anime. Comparing the two are sorta like comparing the Classic 1990's seasons of The Simpsons to the modern incarnation of the show. It's officially a continuation and features the same characters and are of the same genre, but the difference in quality between the current incarnation and the older material is absolutely enormous to the point of feeling like two completely different entities.

I think a new DB can be like the original if it was handled with the same mindset. Back in the day, Toriyama and everyone involved were trying to sell a story first and merchandise 2nd while now it's the opposite so if modern DB was handled like that where the story came first then I'm sure it would at least turn out close to the original.

Look at the Battle Of Gods movie, that's a great example of how modern DB can be if the story comes first.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Look at the Battle Of Gods movie, that's a great example of how modern DB can be if the story comes first.

Battle of Gods? The one that devalued the crux of Freeza's backstory and pulled a new transformation that was tonally inconsistent with everything that came before? Are we thinking of the same glorified TV Special? Don't get me wrong, BoG is fine for its context, but its story is one of the weakest points of the movie, and I certainly wouldn't want a series based on tha...

...I think I just accidentally revoked my "Yay!"

[sintzu]

Battle of Gods? The one that devalued the crux of Freeza's backstory and pulled a new transformation that was tonally inconsistent with everything that came before? Are we thinking of the same glorified TV Special? Don't get me wrong, BoG is fine for its context, but its story is one of the weakest points of the movie.

OK you make good points but my point still stands that it's better than what came after it. At least it tried something completely new instead of falling back on Z nostalgia.

I certainly wouldn't want a series based on tha...I think I just accidentally revoked my "Yay!"

I think things would've turned out a lot better if they focused on the stories instead of the merchandise.

[Dbzfan94]

This is a tough question to answer.

Because on one hand, DBS isn't anywhere NEAR as good as the original manga/anime (I'm talking about both DB and DBZ). Comparing the two are sorta like comparing the Classic 1990's seasons of The Simpsons to the modern incarnation of the show. It's officially a continuation and features the same characters and are of the same genre, but the difference in quality between the current incarnation and the older material is absolutely enormous to the point of feeling like two completely different entities. The original DB manga/anime was truly a masterwork. Simplistic, yes, but a masterwork in it's simplicity. Appealing characters in awesome fights set within simple but effective and involving storylines. And at it's best, both the manga and to a lesser extent the anime had exquisite artwork. DBS on the other hand has turned most of the characters either into flanderized caricatures of themselves or simply not portrayed them frequently enough for the audience to have a connection with them anymore. (Like, who is Piccolo in DBS? Seriously, who is he, what kind of personality does he have, what is his purpose? Within the confines of DBS specifically (as opposed to the franchise as a whole), he is more a prop than a character, and so is Gohan, Krillin and most of the other supporting cast.) And then there is the lack of truly captivating storylines. DBS is a very predictable show with EXTREMELY simple and straightforward storylines. And then there is the fact that the vast majority of fights lack imagination, and are to brief and predictable to be suspenseful, and are furthered hampered a lot of the time by bad animation.

But with all of that said, DBS is still entertaining enough. It still has at least a few grains of the charm of the original manga/anime. The character of Goku might have reversed to the ultra simple-minded person he was at the very start of the original DB, but regardless he definitely have a clear and recognizable persona which is in itself faschinating to watch even when the events he is placed in aren't always that interesting. In this sense Goku is Mr Bean; a character that has such a unique way of reacting to the world around him that, as long as you enjoy the character, even just having him go shop for food becomes rather entertaining. And while the plot and action of DBS isn't even comparable to that of the original manga/anime, this is not the same as saying that it's HORRIBLE either. I feel that DBS can at least be entertaining in the way that an american action cartoon can be. It's neither much better nor much worse than, say, Ben 10. So basically, it's at least watchable.

More or less agree with this.

[hectorgf]

Which is more than I can say for DB GT at least. That show made Goku bland and boring, and every storyline was a wholesale rip-off of previous DB storylines. God that show is a draaaaaaaaaaaaag.

What? DBGT made Goku bland and boring? His kid form is definitely stupid but when he is in super saiyan 4, he is like more mature than he was in DBZ.
While Goku in Super is a completely flat and flanderized character. How can anyone like this superficial version of him more than the super saiyan 4 one? :p

And "rip-off of previous DB storylines" is what you can use to define the WHOLE Super series. Like one member said here once, Super prioritizes the merchandising more than building a story. It's just fanservice after fanservice applied in DB original Sagas structure. I think just the BoG's arc is an exception.
DBGT at least had the Baby's and the Li Sheng Long's arcs that are kind of original.

[TheGreatness25]

Despite the fact that I was a bit -- a lot -- resentful that Super changed the Dragon Ball story that has been established for nearly two decades, I think that I owe Super a chance.

I haven't really watched Super. When it came to Funimation's app, I saw little bits and pieces of it, but I didn't want to be able to get into the story. That's not because I never wanted to watch Super -- I knew that I did -- but I figured that I was such a fanatic Dragon Ball fan, that I knew I was going to buy the Blu-rays. This was my first opportunity in the entire time that Dragon Ball had been in existence, that I could actually enjoy the Blu-rays as a first time viewer. So I was going to make the most of it, and that's why I haven't watched Super.

I see a lot of people talk about Super on here, in other places, and a lot of things really sound dumb. The series sounds absolutely horrible in execution. However, it's Dragon Ball. When I was a kid, I didn't care about how good anything was, if it was related to Dragon Ball, I was into it. So, it's Dragon Ball, it's new, it's fresh, and I'd jump all over this if I were a kid, so I'm going to give it a shot. I'm not expecting to have my socks blown off and I'm not expecting to really be entertained, but I'll watch it. Hey, from my experience, setting the bar so low would actually make it worthwhile for me. I mean, I didn't like Battle of Gods because I was excited for the new DBZ movie and felt that Battle of Gods didn't come anywhere near satisfying my expectations. Meanwhile, I thought that "Resurrection F" was going to be complete garbage (especially with "Super Saiyan Blue" and the retelling of the Freeza fight), but because my expectations were so low, I actually had a much more enjoyable time watching that than Battle of Gods. (Preparing my shield for all the hatred for that comment, but that's how I felt)

So based on that, I give it a "yay" if you're asking if you should give it a shot. If you don't like it, just stop watching it/reading it.

And I don't agree with skipping any part of it just because it's part of the story, so it's definitely something that I'd watch.

[sintzu]

It's just fanservice after fanservice applied in DB original Sagas structure. I think just the BoG's arc is an exception.

The reason for this is probably because they didn't know how well a new DB product would do after so long so after seeing BOG's success, they figured the best option was to focus on merchandise.

[Torturephile]

So far, I'm in the middle. Super is quite a roller coaster of a show when it comes to quality, more inconsistent than its predecessors and arguably GT, which I find consistently bland. Its highest moments can definitely rise above to challenge even top moments from the previous series, like how well-written episode 94 and 56 were, or 57's astounding action scenes. At its lowest, however, it even makes GT seem great due to horrible issues behind the scenes that plague its execution, for example, episode 24, which I believe is one of Super's worst, relied too much on random dialogue between poorly-drawn and animated action scenes, probably due to poor scheduling as noted by some people. I think the show has gotten better in general starting during the universe six tournament saga, but it still has a long way to go to get to Z's general quality.

I wouldn't recommend Super to a non-Dragon Ball fan.

[Puaru]

DBGT made Goku bland and boring? His kid form is definitely stupid but when he is in super saiyan 4, he is like more mature than he was in DBZ.

Yes, and that's exactly why GT Goku is boring. They turned him into a serious, righteous avenger against evil. That's boring. When I Watch SS4 Goku I feel like I'm watching a generic superhero character, like "Captain Monkey: The Red-furred Revenger". That's not the Goku I know and love.

[ekrolo2]

DBGT made Goku bland and boring? His kid form is definitely stupid but when he is in super saiyan 4, he is like more mature than he was in DBZ.

Yes, and that's exactly why GT Goku is boring. They turned him into a serious, righteous avenger against evil. That's boring. When I Watch SS4 Goku I feel like I'm watching a generic superhero character, like "Captain Monkey: The Red-furred Revenger". That's not the Goku I know and love.

Even in the Japanese version? Cause he doesn't come off as a Superman knock off in there, at least to me he doesn't. At most, he seems to have other priorities besides getting a fighting boner.

[dbs fanboy]

Go for it, i'm going to be honest, i don't think there's any general consensus about super, no seriously, super has divided the fanbase so much that i can't really tell if there are more people liking it thatn hating it and viceversa (thought due to the nonstop complaining i'd say that the ones that hate it have a louder voice). So it's really up to each viewers perception. Super is pretty much a mixed bag, there's ok stuff, terrible stuff and great stuff.

[hectorgf]

Yes, and that's exactly why GT Goku is boring. They turned him into a serious, righteous avenger against evil. That's boring. When I Watch SS4 Goku I feel like I'm watching a generic superhero character, like "Captain Monkey: The Red-furred Revenger". That's not the Goku I know and love.

Wrong. That's exactly the Goku you -should- know.
Goku in Cell (specially here) and Boo Saga is really a mature guy like he is in super saiyan 4. Goku being a little bit more mature in super saiyan 4 is just a natural progression, and even when he is in this form, he is not a completelly "serious business guy", just look at his behavior at that scene which he eats a dragon ball.
Super's version of Goku probably let everyone badly accostumed to him, because he wasn't so goofy, mainly in serious scenes.

[hectorgf]

At most, he seems to have other priorities besides getting a fighting boner.

Like Goku is in the major part of the whole Dragon Ball. :v

[Eradicatethesaiyans]

Ehhhh.... nay, to be honest. I really, really tried to get into Super, but I just couldn't do it. I really don't like how Goku and Vegeta are pretty much being pampered by the show, I miss the other characters. Trunks didn't even get that much of ass kissing that Goku and Vegeta got and he had a whole saga (but I do realize that Toei is at least trying to show the others love and I'm very glad). I'm not a fan of Super Saiyan God or the Gods. Beerus and Whis are kinda annoying.

Universe 7 has its ups and downs. The whole idea really allows the Dragon Ball franchise to introduce more characters and come up with interesting ways to continue the plot. But the whole Universe idea just seems a little too broad as well.

I didn't like how Toei was trying to make Mr. Satan relevant again. He's done. He's a useless character and he's always been. Hit was simply a bad villain. He was a weak excuse to bring back Frieza and was very lame. Black Goku and Zamasu are okay, I guess. I'm tired of all of the Goku recolors though.

Super doesn't seem like it has a challenge to it. Nothing seems hard or a threat for the characters anymore and that was really something that pulled me away from enjoying Super.

(Looking back, I don't mind Goku getting the center of attention, I mean, he is the main character and all. But I like all of the characters joining in and helping him on his quests, or at least standing in the sidelines like they always do, unless they already do that. I'm not sure.)

[Polyphase Avatron]

It has its ups and downs.