Super: Yay or Nay?

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Re: Super: Yay or Nay?

Post by Super_Divine_Genki » Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:13 pm

I know that I've already commented here, but...

This thread has got SPOILERS splashed throughout. I don't think that ABED is looking for specific in-universe reasons for why he should, or should not, get around to watching this series. I know that it's Super and all, but still...

If I'd known that Freeza was going to survive the events on Namek, or that Cell was going to come back (even stronger!) after Goku had made the decision to trade in his life, those moments wouldn't have even been shocking or impactful going into it.

If you treasure Kikuchi's original soundtrack,Tokunaga's GT score, or even Yamamoto's Kai soundtrack, it's going to be a slog for you to try getting along with Sumitomo's score and placement for Super. It's not something that can be pushed to the back of your viewing experience, because it's so ever-present and overbearing, imo. It tries too hard to dictate how you should feel about a scene, everytime. The general presentation with OP/ED songs are also below the standards previously set. I could keep harping on the negatives of this area, but I'll stop there.

As Kunzait said, the broader concepts are actually really great here -- but as is so often mentioned -- the execution has been a big miss. I can't help but think that had these concepts been given life in anime form to the in-full-swing 90's production of the brand (by a non-burned out Toriyama), these stories would've been very memorable and enduring, and the differences in quality of presentation compared with the current era of the franchise would be highly noticeable. I will go as far to say that as fact (even though it's still technically hyperbole).

I didn't even make it to episode #10 a couple years back before I had dialed down to 'very occasional viewer' status. I then got caught up to around episode #45 or so, and went on a long hiatus (about 30 episodes) because the series quality was bottom-of-the-barrel as a DB series, imo. I found that when I finally went back and marathoned through the episodes that I'd missed, it was much easier to get along with. So, marathoning should be more beneficial in your experience of this series. It's fun, stupid-fun, or cute mostly, so don't expect much -- if anything -- in the way of tension or buildup.

I'd also been one to wave the Toriyama flag when this series was announced, but after just a few episodes in, the luster of a new DB series quickly faded. As the series has gone on, it's been made more clear that Toriyama is not as much involved than by little more than name alone, as his name simply being attached to this seems to be more like a strategic selling point by Shueisha/TOEI. Corporate hands are all over this thing, like Disney and "politically correct" are all over everything. I applaud Toriyama for speaking up publicly about his dissatisfaction of the quality of the series from a while back.

Anyway, precita summed up nicely why I'm at the Super party:
precita wrote:I also think Super will be remembered more fondly when it ends, as this is likely going to be both Toriyama and Mosaka Nozawa's last Dragonball related series. So if you want to watch the last series where you'll hear Goku's original VA, and likely the last one with Toriyama's involvement...this is pretty much the "last hurrah" for the original staff.
And with some of that negativity aside, I'd still recommend that you at least try Super out, as contadictory as that may read. I hope to see your thoughts down the road. :P

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Re: Super: Yay or Nay?

Post by TheZFighter » Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:36 pm

If you're a fan of the franchise then I see no reason why you shouldn't give it a shot. Hell, I hate GT but I still gave that a fair shot.
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Re: Super: Yay or Nay?

Post by omaro34 » Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:49 pm

Give it a shot. Super has a totally different feel from its predecessor. Super is also trying to target a different demographic in some areas, especially recently; and what I mean by that is there have been elements added to the Dragonball lore by Super that we have never seen before.
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Re: Super: Yay or Nay?

Post by ABED » Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:59 pm

If I'd known that Freeza was going to survive the events on Namek, or that Cell was going to come back (even stronger!) after Goku had made the decision to trade in his life, those moments wouldn't have even been shocking or impactful going into it.
Thanks for the consideration. While I don't like spoilers, I don't hate them either.
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Re: Super: Yay or Nay?

Post by omaro34 » Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:38 pm

ABED wrote:
If I'd known that Freeza was going to survive the events on Namek, or that Cell was going to come back (even stronger!) after Goku had made the decision to trade in his life, those moments wouldn't have even been shocking or impactful going into it.
Thanks for the consideration. While I don't like spoilers, I don't hate them either.
Start from the Champa arc if you're gonna watch it, I wouldn't waste my time with the retelling arcs. Super's theme thus far outside of the Zamasu stuff has been tournaments.

Super seems like fanservice at times with unnecessary returning characters and concepts that appear from fanfiction. I swear there are some fanfics I've read over the years that has turned cannon with Super introducing it.

The Zamasu stuff is something every Dragonball fan should watch though. Dragonball in general rarely introduces a villain that has an established reason as to why he wants to eradicate humanity. Freeza was evil because he was a tyrant and just was. Cell wanted perfection and was created to do so but doesn't have much else, and Buu was evil because he was a maniac. Zamasu doesn't start off as a bad guy, its something that's gradual and he just snaps later on; its great development and story building.
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Re: Super: Yay or Nay?

Post by FoolsGil » Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:42 pm

ABED wrote:
-There are still dinosaurs on Earth.
I'm confused. Are you saying that Super introduced dinosaurs on Earth? If so, there's a pterodactyl in one of the first chapters of the manga.
No man, Dinosaurs were introduced in Dragonball. Beers said he destroyed them all in Super.

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Re: Super: Yay or Nay?

Post by precita » Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:56 pm

It's weird to think Super is almost at 100 episodes already. It doesn't feel that long ago that it started, and we're almost at episode 100. That's already 100 "new" episodes to add to the already lengthy run of Dragonball and DBZ if you were to watch everything in order.

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Re: Super: Yay or Nay?

Post by ABED » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:06 pm

No man, Dinosaurs were introduced in Dragonball. Beers said he destroyed them all in Super.
Alright, thanks.
It's weird to think Super is almost at 100 episodes already. It doesn't feel that long ago that it started, and we're almost at episode 100. That's already 100 "new" episodes to add to the already lengthy run of Dragonball and DBZ if you were to watch everything in order.
Life moves pretty fast.
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Re: Super: Yay or Nay?

Post by sintzu » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:13 pm

ABED wrote:While I don't like spoilers, I don't hate them either.
Can you even call these spoilers ? most of them are announced officially months before their episodes are out.
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Re: Super: Yay or Nay?

Post by Basaku » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:46 pm

omaro34 wrote: Start from the Champa arc if you're gonna watch it, I wouldn't waste my time with the retelling arcs.
I think it's definitely one of the best advices. The movies have almost all of the required story, they're much better animated (especially in comparsion with rock bottom that Super hit in animation departement during ROF saga) and they're shorter. Little reason to go through padded and for the most part inferior retellings in Super

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Re: Super: Yay or Nay?

Post by ABED » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:52 pm

sintzu wrote:
ABED wrote:While I don't like spoilers, I don't hate them either.
Can you even call these spoilers ? most of them are announced officially months before their episodes are out.
It's more of a general statement.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Super: Yay or Nay?

Post by omaro34 » Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:15 pm

Basaku wrote:
omaro34 wrote: Start from the Champa arc if you're gonna watch it, I wouldn't waste my time with the retelling arcs.
I think it's definitely one of the best advices. The movies have almost all of the required story, they're much better animated (especially in comparsion with rock bottom that Super hit in animation departement during ROF saga) and they're shorter. Little reason to go through padded and for the most part inferior retellings in Super
The Super version of the ROF arc in my opinion was awful. Bringing back characters when they shouldn't be, as you mentioned the animation, and killing off characters when they make a sacrifice and wishing them back a few episodes later which was completely unnecessary because it had no impact and didn't change or alter the plot in any significant way.
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Re: Super: Yay or Nay?

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:20 pm

sintzu wrote:
Kunzait_83 wrote:
He basically maps out the BROADEST of broad story beats that need to be hit in what is effectively bullet points.

A team of writers are tasked with fleshing things out and filling in all of the blanks and details.

Fans need to get it through their thick fucking heads that with Toriyama the dude's largely fucking RETIRED and just accept that he's NEVER going to come back to DB in a full time, meaningful capacity, nor should he even be EXPECTED to want to.

Go explore and be amazed at all the other cool shit you'll find that you didn't know about; just like you didn't even know what DB was at one point.
That's perfectly fine, I just wish those points would be more of their own thing instead of doing all these call backs to Z and fanservice.

This is why I prefer the manga cause it's a lot closer to the original which the anime could be but these "writers" are preventing it from being so.

I'm more than fine with his current amount of work, I just wish it was more creative. I think what he's doing is good and a lot better than what someone else would do.

That's exactly what I'm doing but that doesn't mean I'm not going to expect the sequel to my favorite anime to live up to it.
I feel if the conversation is going here, it's worth noting that the notion that Toriyama only does minimal work on the series isn't true, or to be more generous, it's based on outdated information. We know that he writes a somewhat vague outline of the stories, but we can determine from the similarities between the two versions of Super that it's not as vague as Kunzait_83 would have you believe. The atmosphere, the personalities of the new characters, the environments, and even certain poses and lines of dialogue are practically identical between the two. We also know from Toyotaro that Toriyama directly assists him when things don't match his vision, at least on the manga front. It's not unreasonable to assume he might be similarly involved in the early parts of the anime's story production either, but there's no confirmation, so take that idea for what you will...

Also, he basically penned the BoG and RoF movies (as they materialized) himself, and Super kinda relied on those for the entire beginning of the show. I know people like to pretend the retellings don't exist, but... the retellings exist.

Not that you should judge quality based on Toriyama's involvement, I don't think anyone would say that, but this notion that you should pretend the story is over when it isn't anymore cause other interesting things exist is ridiculous, quite frankly. It's not like this is something like DB Heroes masquerading as a legitimate continuation. It's barely even a different premise from what came before. Had people had a similar attitude to Star Trek: The Next Generation, we'd be down 5--ish good Seasons of a great show, 6-ish good Seasons of a just as good DS9... and a total of about half a dozen bad seasons out of 21 total by the time Voyager died (that's over a 10+ year period), bringing an end to the original Star Trek continuity. Without these continuations, Star Trek would have remained an old classic, but never would have been a phenomena.

However, where I will give Kunzait_83 credit is that he sees the writing on the wall. Like Star Trek, if Dragon Ball does continue on, it will become divorced from both Toriyama and the style of the original, it will inevitably devolve into a giant, indiscernible pile of amorphous garbage with Kamehameha's and Golden Hair being thrown every which way. Or even worse, it might be... rebooted! :sick:

Nevertheless, in every way that matters, this is new, bonafide, Toriyama-made Dragon Ball for now. If that changes, I'll stop recommending it, and probably even join in telling fans it's best to just move on, but we're not there yet, and the main story could end well before it happens, and I hope it does.
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Re: Super: Yay or Nay?

Post by Basaku » Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:39 pm

Jinzoningen MULE wrote: However, where I will give Kunzait_83 credit is that he sees the writing on the wall. Like Star Trek, if Dragon Ball does continue on, it will become divorced from both Toriyama and the style of the original, it will inevitably devolve into a giant, indiscernible pile of amorphous garbage with Kamehameha's and Golden Hair being thrown every which way. Or even worse, it might be... rebooted :sick:
Maybe, or maybe there will be some wonderful stories in DB universe emerging because of its continued existance/serialization, like Star Wars universe got. Some of them argubly exceeded the original trilogy.

Also, golden hair and shitty recolors are being thrown around with Toriyama's supervision too right now. So you know...

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Re: Super: Yay or Nay?

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:49 pm

Look it's simple if you don't have desire to watch it then don't. Going into Super with that sort of mentality, reluctantly watching, is not good, you'll be picking the negatives apart much easier and harder it won't be fun for you and then you'll inevitably want to bring these negatives over to forum and discuss them, wasting even more of your time.

Super is addictive, people threaten to quit all the time but never do yet constantly remain negative and spend a lot of their time discussing the show they dislike, whenever Super pisses me off personally I have no desire to discuss it and get turned of Kanzenshuu and DB period.

Super is also gonna be 100 episoded soon, that's a heavy investment especially in this day and age when we aren't kids anymore and time is the most valuable thing ever.

So yeah with all those points I won't recommend it and this is coming from a guy that enjoys the show a lot, most of the time.

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Re: Super: Yay or Nay?

Post by Cipher » Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:09 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:Look it's simple if you don't have desire to watch it then don't. Going into Super with that sort of mentality, reluctantly watching, is not good, you'll be picking the negatives apart much easier and harder it won't be fun for you and then you'll inevitably want to bring these negatives over to forum and discuss them, wasting even more of your time.
Reluctantly watching at the starting line
Keyboards pumping and thumping in time
The Toei logo flashes, the intro goes up
Commenting and reacting, they yearn for the cup
They deftly maneuver, and muscle for posts
Critiques burning fast in pedantic roasts
Reckless and wild, they pour through the turns
Their comments impotent, but still they all yearn

As they speed through the finish, the preview goes down
The fans get up and they get out of town
The forum is empty except for one man
Still posting and reacting as fast as he can
The sun has gone down and the moon has come up
And long ago somebody left with the cup
But he's typing and ranting and hugging the turns
And thinking of Z episodes for which he still burns

He's going the distance
He's going for speed
He's all alone (all alone)
All alone in his time of need

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Re: Super: Yay or Nay?

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:56 pm

Basaku wrote:Maybe, or maybe there will be some wonderful stories in DB universe emerging because of its continued existence/serialization, like Star Wars universe got. Some of them arguably exceeded the original trilogy.

Also, golden hair and shitty recolors are being thrown around with Toriyama's supervision too right now. So you know...
Aside from the prequel trilogy, which I have negative opinions of, the only other Star Wars we've gotten were Episode VII: Episode IV 2! (also known as Star Wars Meme: The Movie). Rouge One was okay, but talk about disjointed. All this time later, I still don't get the point. I don't think Star Wars is in nearly as bad a state as Terminator or Star Trek, but it has been there before, and it's still not far off.

You also seem to have missed the point behind my "Golden hair and Kamehamehas" bit. My point is that the series itself would essentially become a meme, lacking any substance and mimicking its past glory with unintentional self-parody. The FT Arc wasn't far off from that, but it managed to maintain its own identity, its own unique flavor. However, it's always walking that line, which is why I agree that Dragon Ball will unavoidably fall into a state of rot, I just don't think it's there now.
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Re: Super: Yay or Nay?

Post by Basaku » Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:00 pm

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:[
Aside from the prequel trilogy, which I have negative opinions of, the only other Star Wars we've gotten were Episode VII: Episode IV 2! (also known as Star Wars Meme: The Movie). Rouge One was okay, but talk about disjointed. All this time later, I still don't get the point. I don't think Star Wars is in nearly as bad a state as Terminator or Star Trek, but it has been there before, and it's still not far off.

You also seem to have missed the point behind my "Golden hair and Kamehamehas" bit. My point is that the series itself would essentially become a meme, lacking any substance and mimicking its past glory with unintentional self-parody. The FT Arc wasn't far off from that, but it managed to maintain its own identity, its own unique flavor. However, it's always walking that line, which is why I agree that Dragon Ball will unavoidably fall into a state of rot.
Not disagreeing on Episode 7/prequels/Rogue One, but was mostly talking other formats. Thrawn Trilogy of novels, Tales of the Jedi comics, Knights of the Old Republic games are beloved and often regarded as matching quality of the original trilogy if not exceeding it. They revived interest in SW in the 90s and kept it aflot during low-quality prequel days

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Re: Super: Yay or Nay?

Post by sintzu » Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:28 pm

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:f Dragon Ball does continue on, it will become divorced from both Toriyama and the style of the original, Or even worse, it might be... rebooted! :sick:
According to Toyotaro, Super will lead into EOZ so as long as Toriyama is writing we'll not only get his style but the story will lead into the original's ending.

I do believe that he might leave afterwards and give everything to Toei and Bandai but I don't think it will be rebooted because all the money comes from the current continuity (Z, its movies, Super & GT) so they'll probably just continue on until it stops making money (that's probably as likely as batman not making money).

One way they can do it is have some kind of problem with time where everyone from everytime line come together like DB heroes so you'll have 7 Vegeta's each with all the Ssj forms for example.
Last edited by sintzu on Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Super: Yay or Nay?

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:32 pm

sintzu wrote:According to Toyotaro, Super will lead into EOZ so as long as Toriyama is writing we'll not only get his style but the story will lead into the original's ending.
I remember something to that effect being mistranslated from an Italian conference of some type. It's never actually been confirmed, unless I'm mistaken.
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