GT vs. Super: Which is more damaging to the series' image?

[sintzu]

Be honest. It's Vegeta's screen time *runs away*

To make things clear, I'm not talking about the last 2 movies or the manga starting from the Champa arc cause those have been everything and more of what I've wanted from a modern DB revival.

The anime's production and writing (not the basic plots) are what I think is wrong with Super (not Super as a whole cause I love the manga and 2 movies) and due to it being so popular I think it's hurting the franchise's image. What I mean by image is what people think about it and not its financial results cause not only are those great but they're probably the highest the franchise has ever been.

In terms of Vegeta's screentime, no amount of it can fix the problems the anime has had (it would help get me on its side though ). Vegeta's role in the Zamasu arc's manga version is what I thought it would be if Toriyama continued back in the day (not sitting on the side like he did in the anime's version )

[Blackstripe]

Lol, "damage".

A recent episode of Super just surpassed One Piece in ratings. If that's the sort of damage Super is doing to the franchise, I sure hope it keeps doing it!

[sintzu]

A recent episode of Super just surpassed One Piece in ratings.

Are you sure ? If that's the case then One Piece has bigger competition from DB than most thought possible at the time Super was announced.

[TheMikado]

Yeah, and who were the characters in this "GT" game?

GT adult Goku (who literally appeared in the first episode), Super Saiyan GT adult Goku, GT Pan, GT kid Goku, Super Saiyan GT kid Goku, GT Trunks, GT Super Saiyan Trunks, Super Saiyan 4 Goku, great ape Baby-Vegeta (non-playable), Piccolo... And then we got Z Super Saiyan Vegeta, Z powered-up Gohan, Z Cell, Z kid Boo, Z Freeza, Z Super Saiyan/Super Saiyan 2 Goku, Z Super Saiyan future Trunks, and Z Super Vegetto.

Basically there weren't even any villains from GT in this game besides one version of Baby. This was called "GT" just to promote it and probably to make it feel "new." It's a different world out there today and the series itself holds most of its stock as "Z" -- not literally, but it's certainly most recognizable that way.

When they started production of the game I think the only Main GT villain they had was baby. I'm just saying if we are comparing the two based on what's more "damaging".

[PeanutSaiyan]

Lol, "damage".

A recent episode of Super just surpassed One Piece in ratings. If that's the sort of damage Super is doing to the franchise, I sure hope it keeps doing it!

Ratings =/ quality. I think the obvious argument here is that Super has objectively lowered the standard for the franchise going forward (and you can make the same argument for GT, but GT was at the end of Z's lifespan..), which is very damaging if you're not one for eating up anything TOEI throws at you.

[Blackstripe]

Ratings =/ quality. I think the obvious argument here is that Super has objectively lowered the standard for the franchise going forward (and you can make the same argument for GT, but GT was at the end of Z's lifespan..), which is very damaging if you're not one for eating up anything TOEI throws at you.

Well, no, you can't really objectively make that argument because you're not being objective, you're being opinionated.

Super's ratings show that the vast majority of people do indeed think the show is worth watching and is enjoyable. You dismissing them as "eating up anything" TOEI throws at them is merely you being conceited. Their views and opinions are no less valuable than yours, especially given that they far outweigh yours in volume.

I'm sorry, but being a part of a cynical minority viewpoint doesn't make you smarter.

[PeanutSaiyan]

Ratings =/ quality. I think the obvious argument here is that Super has objectively lowered the standard for the franchise going forward (and you can make the same argument for GT, but GT was at the end of Z's lifespan..), which is very damaging if you're not one for eating up anything TOEI throws at you.

Well, no, you can't really objectively make that argument because you're not being objective, you're being opinionated.

Super's ratings show that the vast majority of people do indeed think the show is worth watching and is enjoyable. You dismissing them as "eating up anything" TOEI throws at them is merely you being conceited. Their views and opinions are no less valuable than yours, especially given that they far outweigh yours in volume.

I'm sorry, but being a part of a cynical minority viewpoint doesn't make you smarter.

If you can't look at the two productions objectively then I really can't help you. It doesn't take a whole of intellectual analysis to see that they are night and day. This time around Toei put the animators on such a tight schedule with little regard to how it's going to end up while stringing along little notes given from the creator and much, much more assclownery. They even blamed the fans at one point for expecting animation that didn't look like complete garbage. They got away with this simply because of the franchise's staying power as a brand and doesn't make me feel good about the franchise moving forward - if Toei feels like they can get away with this because people are going to watch it anyway, what's to stop them from cutting even more corners? Because let's be real - if this show didn't have Goku, Vegeta, and etc. as their characters and Dragonball in the name, most of Super would be objectively considered garbage. The idea of the sounds of millions of 9 year olds shouting that Cabba and Vegeta was some kind of high point for the series or apologizing for the production one way or another does not bother me in the slightest.

[Blackstripe]

If you can't look at the two productions objectively then I really can't help you. It doesn't take a whole of intellectual analysis to see that they are night and day. This time around Toei put the animators on such a tight schedule with little regard to how it's going to end up while stringing along little notes given from the creator and much, much more assclownery. They even blamed the fans at one point for expecting animation that didn't look like complete garbage. They got away with this simply because of the franchise's staying power as a brand and doesn't make me feel good about the franchise moving forward - if Toei feels like they can get away with this because people are going to watch it anyway, what's to stop them from cutting even more corners? Because let's be real - if this show didn't have Goku, Vegeta, and etc. as their characters and Dragonball in the name, most of Super would be objectively considered garbage. The idea of the sounds of millions of 9 year olds shouting that Cabba and Vegeta was some kind of high point for the series or apologizing for the production one way or another does not bother me in the slightest.

I feel like you're still living in 2015 or something. Super has come a long way since then, and most of your complaints aren't even relevant anymore. TOEI, for all their faults, has gotten their act together with Super. The Animation is some of the best they've ever put out-just look at the last several episodes. They're practically movie quality at certain points. The animation team's schedule has balanced itself out, and things seem to be going pretty smoothly now. I find it ridiculously silly that people still sit there whining about things that happened over a year ago, and in some cases TWO years ago. If you're really still buthurt about stuff like episode 5 (in a series that's currently on episode 95!), then maybe you should just move on with your life. But don't sit there and try and claim some sort of objective viewpoint that Super has damaged Dragon Ball's reputation.

It had a rough start and some rough patches after that. You what else did, though? The original Dragon Ball manga. Lots of people hated the start of it too.

[Bullza]

It had a rough start and some rough patches after that. You what else did, though? The original Dragon Ball manga. Lots of people hated the start of it too.

True, the Pilaf saga was the series at its worst only beaten by the Black Star Dragon Ball saga of GT.

[ABED]

It had a rough start and some rough patches after that. You what else did, though? The original Dragon Ball manga. Lots of people hated the start of it too.

True, the Pilaf saga was the series at its worst only beaten by the Black Star Dragon Ball saga of GT.

The comedy wasn't everyone's cup of tea but it's the show at its worst?

[ekrolo2]

It had a rough start and some rough patches after that. You what else did, though? The original Dragon Ball manga. Lots of people hated the start of it too.

True, the Pilaf saga was the series at its worst only beaten by the Black Star Dragon Ball saga of GT.

The comedy wasn't everyone's cup of tea but it's the show at its worst?

Clearly they've never seen the Cell arc.

[dbs fanboy]

It had a rough start and some rough patches after that. You what else did, though? The original Dragon Ball manga. Lots of people hated the start of it too.

True, the Pilaf saga was the series at its worst only beaten by the Black Star Dragon Ball saga of GT.

The comedy wasn't everyone's cup of tea but it's the show at its worst?

Not even a little bit close, people should not forget that a really special transformation was introduced here.

[sintzu]

The comedy wasn't everyone's cup of tea but it's the show at its worst?

When would you say the series was at its worst not counting the black star arc ? I'd say it's between the 1st arc and the RRA arc and this is from someone who likes both of them so they're not bad, they're just not as good as the others.

[ABED]

The comedy wasn't everyone's cup of tea but it's the show at its worst?

When would you say the series was at its worst not counting the black star arc ? I'd say it's between the 1st arc and the RRA arc and this is from someone who likes both of them so they're not bad, they're just not as good as the others.

I would say the Buu arc, even moreso than the RRA arc. I simply don't enjoy it that much and it goes on for way too long. The RRA does as well, but there are still plenty of moments that I enjoy, such as Murasaki, Muscle Tower, Tao Pai Pai, General Blue, and the Pirate Cave.

[Bullza]

The Pilaf saga just wasn't very good at all, the only canon saga I'd say that for. It started off just fine in the first few chapters, it was from when Oolong was introduced up until the end of the saga was the low point of the series.

Which of course is why Toriyama changed it up considerably for the next saga.

The RRA saga was alright but that was about it. The King Piccolo Saga was better but still not that great. Then all you had inbetween were Tournaments which were great.

That sums up the original Dragon Ball. Villain after the Dragon Balls, Tournament, Villain after the Dragon Balls, Tournament, Villain after the Dragon Balls, Tournament.

Z > Super > Original > GT

[ABED]

You don't think there's a repetitive formula to Z?

Supervillain comes to destroy the world or universe, Goku is taken out early, Goku arrives to help save the day in the nick of time, big bad defeated. It happens twice in the Freeza arc.

[sintzu]

Z > Super > Original > GT

This is how I'd rate them as well.

I think what held DB back compared to Z and Super is that Toriyama wasn't sure where he wanted to go with the series (he said this in an interview) unlike later starting with the last torunament where he knew he wanted it to be a full battle shonen from there till the end (again, he said this himself).

I would say the Buu arc.

That's my favorite one.

I do think it's a bit slow at the start though.

[ABED]

Z is still DB. Please stop making a distinction. I would hope the author would know what he wants that late into the story, but why does not know exactly where the story will take you hold it back? The general idea of it being a full battle shonen is the broadest of concepts and isn't what made DB what it is. I like early DB because it goes in a whole bunch of odd and interesting yet organic directions.

I don't think Super or GT has damaged the perception of the show. It's perception has been more or less locked since DBZ.

[sintzu]

Z is still DB. Please stop making a distinction.

Why doesn't knwing exactly where the story will take you hold it back ?

The general idea of it being a full battle shonen is the broadest of concepts and isn't what made DB what it is.

Z, GT, Super & Kai are all DB, the reason we use those names is because it's easier and people know what we're talking about. Instead of using Kai for example would you rather I say the remake of the 7th-10th arcs of the original manga ?

This is the type of question that you know the answer to but don't know how to put it into words. Let me use a comparison to try to explain this. In Naruto and One Piece everything fits together and everything matters while in DB you can feel a bit of a disconnect between the 1st 5-6 arcs where Toriyama was trying to decide what type of story he wanted to tell and the last 4-5 arcs where Toriyama knew what he wantd to do. I believe that if he knew what he wanted to do from the start then things would've felt more connected. Another example is someone going to college, their degree plan is going to be a lot more organized if they know what they want from the start than someone jumping from major to major not knowing what they want.

Toriyama himself said that the battles are what made it popular and it just grew as the battles did so they are what makes DB what it is.

[ABED]

No, but so many of you talk about Z like it's a separate or stand alone series. It's not. DB was constantly changing but there's a false perception that the gag heavy first arc characterizes that whole show.

Toriyama was trying to decide what type of story he wanted to tell and the last 4-5 arcs where Toriyama knew what he wantd to do.

Or Toriyama just changed up the formula early on. Yu Yu Hakusho also changed up its formula throughout its run. The first part of the show is made up of a bunch of different cases, almost X-Files-ish. The second arc is one giant tournament, the third is a dark thriller, and the final arc is another tournament. Point being that changing the structure doesn't equal being unfocused. It all feels connected. The only time it feels a tad disconnected (for lack of a better word) is when it goes from the Pilaf arc to the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai. There's unfocused like in the Buu arc and then there's changing things up in order to keep the story fresh for the writer and the audience.

Toriyama himself said that the battles are what made it popular and it just grew as the battles did so they are what makes DB what it is.

Those battles didn't start 1/3 of the way through the story.