DBZ: A Stand-Alone Series?

[JulieYBM]

Yeah, if there's one positive I can think of with regards to the battle with Majin Buu it is that near the end it really did feel like Gokuu and the gang were cornered by Majin Buu, especially when he uses his teleport technique to arrive at the Kaioushin Realm.

[Commodore Krevin]

Ok, but I will say its a rather sad way of thinking that Americans ... can just skip Dragon Ball like its not a big deal. Not that not watching a cartoon is a big deal but you are missing a lot of the story. You can indeed not watch that part but its definitely missing out, a lot. And its sad that you seem to think Americans ... dont care about the whimsy and adventure of the first Dragon Ball series. Correct me if I'm assuming wrong.

I made no judgment call on whether you should or should not watch DB. I believe that's more a matter of personal taste.

It is simply a fact though that "Z" was America's first real taste of dragon ball and a largely successful one at that. That, quite literally, DB was optional for an entire generation of American and Canadian "Z" fans. That we indeed skipped it like "its not a big deal". To argue otherwise, to claim DB can not be "optional", is to no longer be arguing objectively but allowing ones own emotions and passions to cloud one's judgement.

For what it is worth I like DB. I just think its its own different show that only loosely connects with "Z" via sharing the setting and characters. How Goku met Tien or Piccolo doesn't really effect "Z". For instance, I understood Piccolo and Goku were rivals/enemies when I watched "Z". Seeing them fight in the 23rd tournament didn't really expand or alter my impression of that relationship.

The story is always changing and evolving. Regardless, those changes don't make the two shows stand alone.

I feel we may have to agree to disagree on that.

DBZ is as much a stand alone as seasons 5-9 of One Tree Hill. The first four take place during the main characters' high school years. All of their stories came to a conclusion, and beginning with season 5, the story jumps ahead 4 years. You COULD watch the show starting with them as adults and it in fact sort of acts like another pilot, but it's not. It builds on what came before.

Never watched One Tree HIll, so I can't say if that's an apt example either way. Returning to more familiar grounds I'd argue DB is more like ANH from Star Wars. Part of the same universe, obviously, as what came later but the story it told is self-contained and complete. I would argue that "Z" doesn't really "builds on what came before", not really. You have the androids I'll grant you with their link to the Red Ribbon Army but that's fairly tangential and can serve as as a "Battle of Taanab" or " Clone Wars" type reference. For the most part Dragon Ball is always looking forward introducing new characters/new threats rather than dwelling on what came before.

-Respectfully, Sonofccn

[ABED]

The difference being that Lucas wrote that as the beginning. It's structured like a beginning because it is, so it introduces the audience to the characters and story. Of course the original trilogy feels complete. For years that's all there was. It was written to be a trilogy. If you were writing DBZ as a stand alone, would you introduce the Dragon Balls the same way Z did?

For instance, I understood Piccolo and Goku were rivals/enemies when I watched "Z". Seeing them fight in the 23rd tournament didn't really expand or alter my impression of that relationship.

But you didn't feel what it meant for them to team up or what it meant for Piccolo to give his life to the son of his greatest enemy. Understanding is not experiencing. DBZ does build off of what came before. The relationship between the characters is building off what came before. Then there are things like several of the characters having died once before. Why would any writer not show that?

[sintzu]

But you didn't feel what it meant for them to team up or what it meant for Piccolo to give his life to the son of his greatest enemy.

Didn't the same thing happen with Goku's grandfather Gohan ? we're introduced to someone who was barely mentioned before, someone we never saw and were expected to feel for Goku after seeing him but did it take anything away from their reunion ? No.

[rereboy]

Yeah. Exactly. Is there ever a point in the Freeza Arc where anyone is concerned with the larger Freeza empire?

In regards to its factual existence within the story, them being very concerned or not doesn't matter. That's a matter of focus, not existence.

It's a fact that it exists within the story and it's a fact that Freeza's defeat would have consequences for his empire even if the manga doesn't focus on it. It's the same thing regarding Buu. There not being a great focus on it doesn't invalidate its factual existence within the story.

Also, you are underestimating its importance for the story. Even if it's not a great focus of the story, them saving the universe is a bigger deal thematically than just saving Earth (even if the focus in on Earth).

[ABED]

But you didn't feel what it meant for them to team up or what it meant for Piccolo to give his life to the son of his greatest enemy.

Didn't the same thing happen with Goku's grandfather Gohan ? we're introduced to someone who was barely mentioned before, someone we never saw and were expected to feel for Goku after seeing him but did it take anything away from their reunion ? No.

We're feeling for Goku because we like Goku and Gohan is constantly brought up. The entire Red Ribbon Army arc is predicated on Goku looking for the 4 Star DB because it was his memento from his grandfather.

With Piccolo's death, it works because the relationship between Gohan and Piccolo, though it works far better in the anime than the manga, just by virtue of time spent with them together. However, the real importance of Piccolo's arc doesn't have the full weight because the audienced hasn't experienced what came before.

[sintzu]

It is simply a fact though that "Z" was America's first real taste of dragon ball and a largely successful one at that. That, quite literally, DB was optional for an entire generation of American and Canadian "Z" fans. That we indeed skipped it like "its not a big deal".

This also applies to new Japanese and western fans who were introduced to the franchise through Kai.

To argue otherwise, to claim DB can not be "optional", is allowing ones own emotions and passions to cloud one's judgement.

I second this, it's hard to argue DB being a must watch for Z when so many fans, old and new have skipped it without any issues.

You have the androids I'll grant you with their link to the Red Ribbon.

Even that's not a great example considaring the only thing the 2 have in common is the name RRA. There are countless stories that itroduce someone from the heroes past without us seeing those events so this is the same thing for Z only or first viewers.

[DragonBallKing]

The first part in Dragon ball is just as important as part 1 naruto there's really no reason to skip it when we have a choice nowadays just because the later series has flashier battles.

[sintzu]

The first part in Dragon ball is just as important as part 1 naruto.

Everything in Naruto from start to finish is connected like a web where if one thread is broken the whole thing falls apart. That's very far from how DB was and is being written.

[ABED]

The first part in Dragon ball is just as important as part 1 naruto.

Everything in Naruto from start to finish is connected like a web where if one thread is broken the whole thing falls apart. That's very far from how DB was and is being written.

Why? Because it's not heavy on plot?

[sintzu]

Why? Because it's not heavy on plot?

Yeah. With DB each arc is pretty much self contained where when one plot ends another completely new one begins. What I mean is that during the namek arc for example, everything was about namek. you didn't have Babidi in the background trying to wake Buu up, Gero creating the androids or Whis training Beerus for his futur fight with Goku.

With the characters, they don't have all the back story that someone like Itachi for example has.

[ABED]

Why? Because it's not heavy on plot?

Yeah. With DB each arc is pretty much self contained where when one plot ends another completely new one begins. What I mean is that during the namek arc for example, everything was about namek. you didn't have Babidi in the background trying to wake Buu up, Gero creating the androids or Whis training Beerus for his futur fight with Goku.

With the characters, they don't have all the back story that someone like Itachi for example has.

That doesn't make them stand alone, it just means the plots are simple, but they are still very serialized. What writer would introduce the DB's the way they were in DBZ?

[sintzu]

They are still very serialized.

I'm not saying it's not, it's just easier to put things together most of the time if you don't start from the beginning for whatever reason.

[ABED]

They are still very serialized.

I'm not saying it's not, it's just easier to put things together most of the time if you don't start from the beginning for whatever reason.

That doesn't make it a stand alone. It's simply easy for the audience to play catch up.

[sintzu]

That doesn't make it a stand alone.

Another example is Yu-Gi-Oh, the 2000 anime is a continuation of the 90's that was made by Toei (I think that's who made it) but like Z, it doesn'trequire any knowldge of that 90's anime.

[ABED]

That doesn't make it a stand alone.

Another example is Yu-Gi-Oh, the 2000 anime is a continuation of the 90's that was made by Toei (I think that's who made it) but like Z, it doesn'trequire any knowldge of that 90's anime.

Can you possibly think of an example of something I've seen? I'm not asking you to know everything I've watched but if the examples we both use aren't things we've both seen, it's hard to have an informed discussion.

[sintzu]

Can you possibly think of an example of something I've seen? I'm not asking you to know everything I've watched but if the examples we both use aren't things we've both seen, it's hard to have an informed discussion.

Have you seen batman the animated series and batman beyond ? if so would you call batman beyond a stand alone ?

[Kamiccolo9]

That doesn't make it a stand alone.

Another example is Yu-Gi-Oh, the 2000 anime is a continuation of the 90's that was made by Toei (I think that's who made it) but like Z, it doesn'trequire any knowldge of that 90's anime.

Can you possibly think of an example of something I've seen? I'm not asking you to know everything I've watched but if the examples we both use aren't things we've both seen, it's hard to have an informed discussion.

The Yugioh anime was actually altered to be a standalone story, by combining several elements of the earlier part of the manga and incorporating them into the later stuff. It's not a continuation of anything; it's a retelling thrown into a later arc. The 90s Yugioh anime has no relation to the 2000s one.

[sintzu]

The Yugioh anime was actually altered to be a standalone story, by combining several elements of the earlier part of the manga and incorporating them into the later stuff. It's not a continuation of anything; it's a retelling thrown into a later arc. The 90s Yugioh anime has no relation to the 2000s one.

Thanks for clearing that up. I've read it was a sequel so I just assumed it was a continuation of that.

[ABED]

Can you possibly think of an example of something I've seen? I'm not asking you to know everything I've watched but if the examples we both use aren't things we've both seen, it's hard to have an informed discussion.

Have you seen batman the animated series and batman beyond ? if so would you call batman beyond a stand alone ?

It's a spinoff so it's structured as a stand alone. You are introduced to the characters and the conflicts and the backstory. It's not all taken as given. It's like Frasier is to Cheers or The Flash is to Arrow or Angel is to Buffy.