Dragon Ball Kai (2009) vs. Dragon Ball Super

[VegettoEX]

Ripper 30, I believe you have already been warned elsewhere about needless multi-posts like these. There is no need to post three times in a row. You can quote multiple items within a single post. Please collect your thoughts before making them.

RE: the "without any bias" point:

That's impossible, and doubly-so here due to what Kai actually is underneath its faux-shiny, new exterior (it's not its own property and cannot stand on its own). Everyone has their own preconceptions, experiences, and yes, "bias". You can't remove it. The best you can be is open about it and explain how it relates to the points you're making.

[Bullza]

Goku was Selfish in Kai as well and Vegata isn't much intresting Character in Super as well.

Well I didn't mean so much with him being interesting. I do think he has been interesting though, throughout Z you saw him turn from a villain to the hero. Super has shown more of what the changed Vegeta is like which you didn't really see much of before because it ended not long after he became good.

No I meant battle wise. Vegeta beat a few lesser opponents like Dodoria, Zarbon and Jeice but for the most part he was also getting kicked around and was always treated as being worse than Goku. In Super he's treated much more as Goku's equal and had a good string of wins from when he beat on Golden Frieza, Frost, Cabba and Magetta. Then he put a beating on Black too.

Which Kai music are you referring to?
Yamamoto's, Sumitomo's or Kikuchi's ?.

Which ever was the original score, Yamamoto was it?

[Ripper 30]

Ripper 30, I believe you have already been warned elsewhere about needless multi-posts like these. There is no need to post three times in a row. You can quote multiple items within a single post. Please collect your thoughts before making them.

Okay, I will keep that in Mind.

Goku was Selfish in Kai as well and Vegata isn't much intresting Character in Super as well.

Well I didn't mean so much with him being interesting. I do think he has been interesting though, throughout Z you saw him turn from a villain to the hero. Super has shown more of what the changed Vegeta is like which you didn't really see much of before because it ended not long after he became good.

No I meant battle wise. Vegeta beat a few lesser opponents like Dodoria, Zarbon and Jeice but for the most part he was also getting kicked around and was always treated as being worse than Goku. In Super he's treated much more as Goku's equal and had a good string of wins from when he beat on Golden Frieza, Frost, Cabba and Magetta. Then he put a beating on Black too.

Actually my point was that Vegeta changed from the Boo Arc, he actually contradicted his own Character because in his Respect speech he admired Goku and agreed that goku is better than him but in Super he's Like "Damn it Kakarot" and again he is back to old Vegeta's way.

Which ever was the original score, Yamamoto was it?

Yes It was Yamamoto's Score but why do you think it was inferior to Sumitomo's Music which only got good from Black Goku Arc.

[ABED]

Actually my point was that Vegeta changed from the Boo Arc, he actually contradicted his own Character because in his Respect speech he admired Goku and agreed that goku is better than him but in Super he's Like "Damn it Kakarot" and again he is back to old Vegeta's way.

Depends on the execution. It's very possible he can admit Goku is better than him but still by competitive and work to be better than Goku.

[8000 Saiyan]

Both have their pros and cons, but I'll go with Kai.

[MR.Mark]

I'd go with Kai up until the Buu arc, then Super's execution wins out slightly for me.

I'll concede that Super's biggest problem is the power scaling, It's out of whack. That said, there's so much world building and fun new characters that I just cannot hate Super, there's to much new things to like.

[ShaneisMC]

Kai for Japan.. Yeah sure I suppose yep. Kai for like everyone else and especially ya know.... us, absolutely not. English Kai is a godsend. Funimation got the opportunity to redo its biggest hit which they did a relatively awful job of originally and they nailed it this time around in every department they had control over. If you like the original Japanese version which don't get me wrong I absolutely do myself and pick OG Japanese over Japanese Kai easily, but Kai for much of the world otherwise is a pretty big deal.

Okay... but what has this got to do anything with my point? My point about Kai, the version I follow and is ultimately what matters most to me was a god awful product. What FUNimation and staff did with their version is none of my concern. And, I don't really care about the world.

Just because that's the only version you personally care about or follow and the fact that you don't care about the rest of the world doesn't negate the fact that it all exists. The way that you express your opinion about Kai is clearly being exclusive to Japan which as long as you make it a point that that is your only concern or care is fine, but to effectively disregard Kai as a product otherwise by not even seemingly acknowledging it is utterly ridiculous and not only is it not helpful it's just flat out dumb. Yes you are correct and I agree that the original country's version of the show is inferior to their original product. However many other countries and dubs, many of which by no means are insignificant or miniscule in scope or importance to a large portion to the series viewers and supporters ESPECIALLY Funimation and its English dub, don't seemingly just not matter or not even exist. The fact of that matter is is that Kai AS AN OVERALL PRODUCT while inferior to the original series production, is a large success/improvement in many other places of the world and in the grand scheme of things it is a very important and valuable piece of work for many, many people who are fans of the series in more ways than a single viewpoint or at the very least are fans of the show in a form other than Japanese. Personally I like Dragon Ball in both English AND Japanese. If I want to watch the series in Japanese I have my Dragon Boxes to pop in. However if I want to watch a version of the series in English that is not only not trash but is genuinely good I'll watch Kai. But that's just me. I know there's plenty of other dubs out there with fans from their homelands who like seeing the show in whatever their native language is and I'm sure some of them likely improved alongside Funimation.

Long story short or TLDR; small scale/just Japan yeah Kai is worse. Grand scale/EVERYBODY included Kai is very important.

[GreatSaiyaJeff]

While the Kai dub is better, it really didn't do anything that made excited. It was just the original series cut down. The only thing it did was being in a new group of fans which helped inspire the movies and Super.

[ShaneisMC]

While the Kai dub is better, it really didn't do anything that made excited. It was just the original series cut down. The only thing it did was being in a new group of fans which helped inspire the movies and Super.

I'm certainly not trying to instigate problems or anything with anyone, but lets just analyze briefly what all was just stated in this brief exchange. The "only" thing Kai did was as follows apparently: Bring about a vastly superior dub which was greater in script adaptation, faithfulness, and acting across the board, cut out the majority of filler material giving us a version of the show that was closer in its own faithfulness to the original manga itself, bring in a new group of fans who weren't around back when the series originally came about and or revitalized peoples interest and love for the series such as myself, and also lead into us getting two new movies and an entire new legitimate sequel series and continuation of the story written by the original author. Does that about cover it?

[GreatSaiyaJeff]

While the Kai dub is better, it really didn't do anything that made excited. It was just the original series cut down. The only thing it did was being in a new group of fans which helped inspire the movies and Super.

I'm certainly not trying to instigate problems or anything with anyone, but lets just analyze briefly what all was just stated in this brief exchange. The "only" thing Kai did was as follows apparently: Bring about a vastly superior dub which was greater in script adaptation, faithfulness, and acting across the board, cut out the majority of filler material giving us a version of the show that was closer in its own faithfulness to the original manga itself, bring in a new group of fans who weren't around back when the series originally came about and or revitalized peoples interest and love for the series such as myself, and also lead into us getting two new movies and an entire new legitimate sequel series and continuation of the story written by the original author. Does that about cover it?

No that about covers it, it was just for me, that I knew where the story was going. So it didn't excite me personally. I personally would have enjoyed Kai if they reanimated it. But hey that's just me, I'm glad people enjoyed Kai and brought in a new wave of fans.
(Also if my Grammer sucks at the moment, it's because I'm typing on a phone and I have fat fingers -_-)

[Saikyo no Senshi]

Just because that's the only version you personally care about or follow and the fact that you don't care about the rest of the world doesn't negate the fact that it all exists. The way that you express your opinion about Kai is clearly being exclusive to Japan which as long as you make it a point that that is your only concern or care is fine, but to effectively disregard Kai as a product otherwise by not even seemingly acknowledging it is utterly ridiculous and not only is it not helpful it's just flat out dumb. Yes you are correct and I agree that the original country's version of the show is inferior to their original product. However many other countries and dubs, many of which by no means are insignificant or miniscule in scope or importance to a large portion to the series viewers and supporters ESPECIALLY Funimation and its English dub, don't seemingly just not matter or not even exist. The fact of that matter is is that Kai AS AN OVERALL PRODUCT while inferior to the original series production, is a large success/improvement in many other places of the world and in the grand scheme of things it is a very important and valuable piece of work for many, many people who are fans of the series in more ways than a single viewpoint or at the very least are fans of the show in a form other than Japanese. Personally I like Dragon Ball in both English AND Japanese. If I want to watch the series in Japanese I have my Dragon Boxes to pop in. However if I want to watch a version of the series in English that is not only not trash but is genuinely good I'll watch Kai. But that's just me. I know there's plenty of other dubs out there with fans from their homelands who like seeing the show in whatever their native language is and I'm sure some of them likely improved alongside Funimation.

Long story short or TLDR; small scale/just Japan yeah Kai is worse. Grand scale/EVERYBODY included Kai is very important.

Those many many people who find Kai dubs valuable can come here and express their opinion of how much they love their version. I got no problems.

I'm not going to acknowledge those versions cause why should I? I don't watch them. I have no interest in them and I can't have an informed opinion on them. So, no reason for me to acknowledge their existence.

[sintzu]

I don't watch them. I have no interest in them and I can't have an informed opinion on them. So, no reason for me to acknowledge their existence.

You've never watched anything from Kai ? not even the first 10 or so episodes just to see what it is.

[ShaneisMC]

Just because that's the only version you personally care about or follow and the fact that you don't care about the rest of the world doesn't negate the fact that it all exists. The way that you express your opinion about Kai is clearly being exclusive to Japan which as long as you make it a point that that is your only concern or care is fine, but to effectively disregard Kai as a product otherwise by not even seemingly acknowledging it is utterly ridiculous and not only is it not helpful it's just flat out dumb. Yes you are correct and I agree that the original country's version of the show is inferior to their original product. However many other countries and dubs, many of which by no means are insignificant or miniscule in scope or importance to a large portion to the series viewers and supporters ESPECIALLY Funimation and its English dub, don't seemingly just not matter or not even exist. The fact of that matter is is that Kai AS AN OVERALL PRODUCT while inferior to the original series production, is a large success/improvement in many other places of the world and in the grand scheme of things it is a very important and valuable piece of work for many, many people who are fans of the series in more ways than a single viewpoint or at the very least are fans of the show in a form other than Japanese. Personally I like Dragon Ball in both English AND Japanese. If I want to watch the series in Japanese I have my Dragon Boxes to pop in. However if I want to watch a version of the series in English that is not only not trash but is genuinely good I'll watch Kai. But that's just me. I know there's plenty of other dubs out there with fans from their homelands who like seeing the show in whatever their native language is and I'm sure some of them likely improved alongside Funimation.

Long story short or TLDR; small scale/just Japan yeah Kai is worse. Grand scale/EVERYBODY included Kai is very important.

Those many many people who find Kai dubs valuable can come here and express their opinion of how much they love their version. I got no problems.

I'm not going to acknowledge those versions cause why should I? I don't watch them. I have no interest in them and I can't have an informed opinion on them. So, no reason for me to acknowledge their existence.

The problem with that is that that isn't really how logic works. Again I'm not like trying to be necessarily derogatory but essentially what you are presenting as your way of seeing things is honestly about the equivalent to a baby who hasn't discovered Object Permamence. Just because you don't see something doesn't mean that it doesn't exist or that you can just not acknowledge the fact that a thing does exist. You can safely and reasonably say you have no interest in them and have not seen them and therefore cannot give an informed opinion about them. That part is actually wonderfully sound and is how you should present your case when talking about or mentioning that part of the fan base or product or whatever. But simply disregarding their existence as a whole simply "because" more or less just doesn't work and again isn't helpful. Again it all goes back to how you present your opinion in general. When we're talking how Kai is as a whole let's say we are talking about it to a general audience or to someone who doesn't know any better or wouldn't understand necessarily what you meant due to them being a more casual fan or just anyone in general who wanted a summary of what Kai is because they hadn't seen it before and wanted to know more about it. The way you present your point of view is a very exclusive one, and one literally has to infer that you are talking about the Japanese version of the show. What if they didn't know any better and they thought you were talking about the dub? Would you present yourself differently and let them know that you are simply speaking about the Japanese version and that you haven't watched any other versions so that you can't fairly give them an informed opinion? Because why don't you just do that in the first place? You yourself admitted that you haven't watched them and can't have an informed opinion on them. So why not just include that as a part of your generalized statement? It's only fair. And I think a lot of that is kinda the point as well. When we are talking about Kai as a whole project a large percentage of the fanbase has a version of Kai that they watch that is different than the one that you solely watch. It is not exclusive to Japan. Hell we got the Buu arc BECAUSE of the international scene. So to just completely leave the rest of the world out of the discussion is just again.... its just dumb. I could understand it more if it were a much much smaller minority of people that watched the show in anything other than Japanese but that simply isn't the case. If anything I would wager there are more people who watch the show in different languages than there are solely japanese viewers.

[Puaru]

In comparing DBZ to DBS, DBZ obviously wins.

DBZ Kai is essentially a better version of DBZ, so obviously DBZ Kai wins over DBS by a landslide.

[Saikyo no Senshi]

You've never watched anything from Kai ? not even the first 10 or so episodes just to see what it is.

I was talking about dubs. I don't watch dubs. I have seen 50 or so episodes of Kai in its original version.

[LuckyCat]

Since the first 27 episodes of Super were just an adaptation, I think it's fair game to specifically compare those to Dragon Ball Kai. At episode 27 of Kai, the Saiyan arc had just finished. Kai's story was well-paced, the action sequences were to the point and well-timed, the music placement ranged from good to spectacular. With Super, there was an extreme slowdown in pacing, much of the music was lackluster or just recycled from the movies. There were a few good animation cuts, and of course original material. However, said original material hardly inpacted future storylines of Super, and essentially bogged down the good parts of the story.

If asked point blank whether I'd rather watch episode 1 - 27 of Super or 1 - 27 of Kai, I'd go with Kai every single time, in any language.

[ekrolo2]

I don't know how Kai can lose here considering the fact it's adapting a fair amount of material that's actually good and even the stuff that's kind of broken like Cell & Boo are NOWHERE near as broken storywise as anything in Super.

[Bullza]

Kai does have the better story, probably not unexpected as it's the story from the mind of one person. Super only has a outline which is then adapted by several writers.

Super has a huge disadvantage in that regard which really isn't it's fault.

Kai also has the more original story. Super having two retelling ps, two Tournaments and a saga dealing with Time Travel.

Super has had plenty of interesting concepts though which is surprising for how long the series has been going that they can keep coming out with new things.

What Super lacks there it makes up for by having more animation high points and faster, more unique and varied fight scenes and battles not constantly being all about who has the higher power level. Now that they're brought back an emphasis on experience and teamwork it's allowed characters who were useless through most of Z to come back and do something for once.

[emperior]

I'm a huge Super fan but I personally believe Kai is much better as of now. Story-wise and art wise.

Now, if Super had the same amount of blood/battle damage, better shading with no shiny highlights - then I believe Super could be on par with Kai.

[ekrolo2]

Kai does have the better story, probably not unexpected as it's the story from the mind of one person. Super only has a outline which is then adapted by several writers.

Super has a huge disadvantage in that regard which really isn't it's fault.

Kai also has the more original story. Super having two retelling ps, two Tournaments and a saga dealing with Time Travel.

Super has had plenty of interesting concepts though which is surprising for how long the series has been going that they can keep coming out with new things.

What Super lacks there it makes up for by having more animation high points and faster, more unique and varied fight scenes and battles not constantly being all about who has the higher power level. Now that they're brought back an emphasis on experience and teamwork it's allowed characters who were useless through most of Z to come back and do something for once.

Kai isn't better because its written by one person, there's plenty of movies and TV shows that have multiple writers and work out just fine. The problem is the guy who's giving the outline hasn't been good in decades and the people beneath him either can't or won't diverge from it and are stuck on a shitty production cycle.

Kai's good because it's producing story content from before Toriyama started to suck, well, not suck as much as he does now anyway.