Gohan at the Cell Games

[Son_Gohan]

I'm not being inconsistent. The characters say there's something different about Goku on Namek. There is - his power. Other than that, he's the same guy. How do we know? By his actions. In the Cell arc, it's a different issue entirely, so I have no idea why you bring it up. What the hell does the different Ki have to do with his personality? SHOW me where Goku acted differently after his training. By show, I mean not in dialog, but in action.

Gohan was not facing an organic internal conflict, that's the heart of the issue. FYI, Gohan awakened his dormant power both times via anger. Those rage boosts you are talking about are transient boosts to his power. And the far more likely reason that Gohan can't tap into his power through sheer anger if that's even true is because he's neglected his training and he can't just manufacture anger.

You're reading into what you want it to be, not how it is... when the characters remarked on something about Goku being different, it is before he reveals his power or begins fighting. He is in a suppressed state, in fact he was emitting an even lower power when he arrived on Namek than what he displayed on Earth; Burter's scouter listed him at 5000. If you're that adamant to not be able to concede on a point as basic as that, it won't matter what is presented, you've made it clear you're not open to changing your mind any time soon.

According to you anyway. For your information, Goku explicitly says Gohan's dormant power began getting released while in the RoSaT, which is how he ended up stronger than Goku. Gohan's rage boosts are evidently no longer transient increases, since he doesn't lose the ability to become SSJ2 after he calms down. The rage boosts had nothing to do with training, they were occurring all the way back when Raditz arrived on Earth and Gohan had never even trained a day in his life. It's an issue with the mind and its natural progression; as one becomes older, the conscious mind will become more dominant and a person will lose touch with their instinctual mind or as in Cell Games Gohan's case, will even consciously interfere with/suppress it.

[ABED]

I'm not reading into anything. I'm going by what is SHOWN. Your entire first paragraph doesn't show a difference of personality in Goku. How the hell does that show a difference in Goku beyond an increase in power? How is any of this relevant to Gohan?

you've made it clear you're not open to changing your mind any time soon.

And you are? As far as I can tell, the only reason you say I'm not open minded is because I'm not agreeing with you.

[Super_Divine_Genki]

Though not directly related to the scene or character in question, Goku did have a change of motivation when fighting Freeza. When things got completely desperate, his aim was to kill Freeza with the Genki-dama because that's what it had come down to at that point. After the SSJ transformation, and when the playing field went way more in Goku's favor, the motivation changed to making a complete example out of Freeza -- even though Freeza had just murdered his best friend before his eyes a few minutes prior (and countless others in the past). Freeza had been an established threat for centurys (?). Cell, in "perfect form", had done nothing but boast about his aim to plunge the world into terror. He had barely existed, and yet he defied his very programming when becoming "perfect" after a very short time.

I vaguely remember Vegeta(?) noting that Goku and Gohan both had a completely different air about them as SSJ's after they had emerged from the RoSaT. Gohan did undergo growth in all ways during that time, but not drastic change.

The circumstances were no different.

Other than another super-villain being presented, everything else acrossed the board was unlike previous arcs since Gohan had been introduced. This is the first time that Gohan had been presented with a major threat and was standing even with it, in full composure after reading its power. There was no element of being in a position of dire disadvantage at the time. Everyone was alive. Thanks to Goku's convenient ability, having a new set of DB's available and ready for use was in play as well.

He killed people, plenty of them in fact. This has gone beyond us having two different interpretations of the same scene to you being flat out wrong.

Easy now, I was speaking about the tournament setting when Gohan was actually present on the field.

Cell was not complete at the time of those killings, and he was running on his instincts/programming to become "perfect". They were his natural prey in his view. Plus, his encounter with Piccolo precipitated his need to become stronger quickly. Once complete though, Cell exhibited noticeable changes in behavior due to all of his abilities being heightened and no longer needing bio-energies. The world army went out of its way and provoked Cell themselves, otherwise Cell had intended on keeping his end with Goku's request. There no longer was need to kill to powerup to reach his primary goal, as Cell mentioned during the ZTV broadcast.

Previously, younger Gohan had heard stories about Piccolo's malicious actions and world-takeover plot, and seen that Piccolo turned a corner over time, and even became fond of others. Gohan had first-hand experiences with Vegeta attempting to murder everyone, including himself, and seen that even he had become a somewhat neutral character through specific circumstances over time, knowing that Vegeta had past blood on his hands too. Cell's genetic makeup shared both of those characters' traits and abilities, and Goku's as well. Cell's behavior was an amalgamation, and not dominated by Freeza's cells and traits, but could have natural tendency to rotate into that. Gohan did have previous knowledge of Cell's makeup and perhaps, though not explicitly stated, took that into consideration after observing Goku VS Cell. Gohan also knew that the DB's were on standby to revive all previous loss of life. It's all there when seeing from Gohan's POV.

One line of dialogue could've helped to make the picture 100% clear for some. Still, the 99.9(99999)% that is there gets the job done well enough, imo.

What was its theme?

"The point is that the arc wasn't written with nothing in mind", is what I said.

I purposely did not answer what the theme(s) may be, because I'm not the author. I can interpret what the theme may be, but that's guesswork. What's important is that it wasn't an aimless joyride. Recurring themes exist (Ex., Hope, protecting the Earth's future from biological weapons of mass destruction, ascension?,etc.).

He didn't shake things up and do something different.

Exactly, time travel being the main one. Putting the Earth's future primarily in Gohan's hands instead of Goku? Especially with Goku, Vegeta, and F.Trunks being ever-present throughout and having Gohan kept in the background a lot of the time. Introducing a new protagonist in temporary capacity, which provided insight into the future of where the narrative was going to go with certain characters for long term (Bulma, Vegeta). Unlike the Saiyajin arc, Gohan wasn't front and center until the very end and had commanding presence throughout the final battle, but with a twist because of his later ruthless desire to make Cell suffer indefinitely.

The arc also displayed several times that the good guys were inadvertently being counter-productive and negatively impacting the mission, despite previous warnings of an alternate future where everyone was dead. Cause and effect were impacted negatively. Vegeta's ego was so out of control that he even deliberately aided in creating a nightmare scenario so that he could continue to boast about his power and have an entertaining fight, which was still in-line with his character and showed why it was a huge risk having him around even when the situation was in their favor. The main antagonist also had stipulations placed on him before he could become complete, which ran for a lengthy portion of the arc and wasn't solved in one episode's time. The main antagonist was very opportunistic because he was faced with having to fight from a position of disadvantage for a lengthy stretch.

Take this as coming from a neutral position. The arc didn't meet someone's views because certain literary guidelines weren't met exactly 100% according to how they were taught to some, or it may have missed one blip. Let's say that one line of dialogue, or even a slight re-wording in Gohan's plea provides complete clarity, whatever it may be. That's still 99.9% that the story has delivered on, in favor of Gohan being in natural character. The pieces are all there. Had Gohan anxiously wanted to hop in and say: "Yeah, I'm ready. You're not harming my friends and family. Let's do this. You're going down, Cell, and there's nothing that you can do about it!", that would've been way off the point that was attempting to be made through Gohan's writing.

Anyway, agree to disagree, ABED. My view is solidified, and I'd rather not be repeating myself. I've really enjoyed reading everyone's comments so far, even if I disagree with a counter-view. I didn't intend to hog this thread so much. :p

Now, if Toriyama-sensei could hold just one AMA. I'd be curious on his views if asked about the 10 most controversial subjects in his story. Or, maybe he could randomly pop in here with a one-off post via an interpreter.

ekrolo2: If there's one thing that I appreciate about the Boo arc, it's that it made known that threats would still be attracted to Earth without Goku being around. I never liked Goku settling with staying dead at the end of the Cell arc because he felt being alive was the cause of the problems. It felt a bit forced, even if it's somewhat understandable for why he'd feel that way.

[LuckyCat]

I think it's important to remember that while Cell killed people, Goku and Gohan are not heroic defenders of justice trying to avenge those innocent deaths. Goku's connection with Cell is personal, it's a vendetta from the Red Ribbon army. Gohan's connection is through the plan to assassinate his dad, but it's still a weak connection. Goku and Gohan are more interested in dealing with Cell on personal terms, not in some sort of western super hero fashion.

That's why Gohan would stop and reason with Cell. Cell hasn't done anything personally to Gohan. As far as Gohan is concerned, Cell isn't a threat until he kills an innocent on Gohan's watch.

[ABED]

Genki, your Goku example is not a good one because I'm not arguing that people's motivations can't change. Goku's change in motivation if there is one, during that battle are still within his established character. I also think you created such lengthy posts that have nothing to do with Gohan's headspace that I think you miss the point.

Let me give an analogy of what I think is wrong with how Gohan is written:
Let's say it's the end of Empire. Leia, Lando, Chewy and the rest are fighting their way to the Falcon and they come to a locked door. Artoo arrives, tries to unlock it, declares it hopelessly fused. "We're doomed!" cries Threepio, and the group is pinned down by laser fire, unable to reach the Falcon. Luke dangles from the bottom of cloud city, calls Leia, and the Falcon appears below. Huh? How did the group make it? Luke climbs aboard and finds it piloted by Han Solo, and no explanation is made of how he got out of carbonite. They swoop down and pick up leia and the others who are waiting on a field on Dagobah. That is egregiously confusing storytelling, and an exaggerated version of the "jumping" error.

This is in essence the same exact thing. Gohan goes in wanting to help his friends fight Cell and the cyborgs. He comes out and he's reticent to fight asks Cell, "Why are we fighting?" If this is a deliberate choice on Toriyama's part, then he's jumped too far, just like in the Star Wars example.

I purposely did not answer what the theme(s) may be, because I'm not the author. I can interpret what the theme may be, but that's guesswork.

Now you are shy about doing guesswork?

Cell isn't a threat until he kills an innocent on Gohan's watch.

Are you really that concrete range of the moment bound? Do you think Gohan is as well? If you have verifiable proof that Cell has murdered people, how is that not sufficient evidence that he will make good? He destroyed a good chunk that city during that news broadcast where he declared the Cell Games.

[LuckyCat]

Cell isn't a threat until he kills an innocent on Gohan's watch.

Are you really that concrete range of the moment bound? Do you think Gohan is as well? If you have verifiable proof that Cell has murdered people, how is that not sufficient evidence that he will make good? He destroyed a good chunk that city during that news broadcast where he declared the Cell Games.

Yes, and I base that on Goku and Gohan's reactions. Gohan only got excited when Cell was about to kill Piccolo. Yes, cities were destroyed, but do Gohan or Goku ever react to that? Do they even give it lip service? The closest thing I can think of (For Goku) is when Goku gets mad at Cell killing an army. But instead of fighting Cell, he goes and gets some Dragon Balls so he can still look forward to his fun duel without worry. "Saving the innocents" is definitely not Goku's reason for fighting Cell, Goku would've fought him anyway for personal reasons.

[ABED]

Cell isn't a threat until he kills an innocent on Gohan's watch.

Are you really that concrete range of the moment bound? Do you think Gohan is as well? If you have verifiable proof that Cell has murdered people, how is that not sufficient evidence that he will make good? He destroyed a good chunk that city during that news broadcast where he declared the Cell Games.

Yes, and I base that on Goku and Gohan's reactions. Gohan only got excited when Cell was about to kill Piccolo. Yes, cities were destroyed, but do Gohan or Goku ever react to that? Do they even give it lip service? The closest thing I can think of (For Goku) is when Goku gets mad at Cell killing an army. But instead of fighting Cell, he goes and gets some Dragon Balls so he can still look forward to his fun duel without worry. "Saving the innocents" is definitely not Goku's reason for fighting Cell, Goku would've fought him anyway for personal reasons.

Never claimed it was. That was never my comment. The issue is whether his actions prove he will make good on his threat and Cell's actions are proof that he will make good on that threat. I don't know what you are trying to claim.

[LuckyCat]

The issue is whether his actions prove he will make good on his threat and Cell's actions are proof that he will make good on that threat. I don't know what you are trying to claim.

There's no questioning whether Cell would make good on his threat, but there is questioning how closely and immediately it affects Goku, Gohan and their friends. The immediacy causes their reactions. Broad general destruction and a 10 day waiting period do not. This is consistent with Goku and Gohan's reactions to prior threats. For example, Freeza will most certainly continue to rule the universe with an iron fist, but Goku doesn't care about that until it becomes personal.

[ABED]

The issue is whether his actions prove he will make good on his threat and Cell's actions are proof that he will make good on that threat. I don't know what you are trying to claim.

There's no questioning whether Cell would make good on his threat, but there is questioning how closely and immediately it affects Goku, Gohan and their friends. The immediacy causes their reactions. Broad general destruction and a 10 day waiting period do not. This is consistent with Goku and Gohan's reactions to prior threats. For example, Freeza will most certainly continue to rule the universe with an iron fist, but Goku doesn't care about that until it becomes personal.

He wasn't on the same planet. Cell IS an immediate threat. Cell is always going to come to them and again, I don't see how any of this matters to Gohan feeling like he can reason with Cell and gets cold feet. You guys are bouncing around too much and seem to be forgetting the fundamental question - Is Gohan acting out of character when he gets cold feet and tells Cell he doesn't want to fight?

[Super_Divine_Genki]

Genki, your Goku example is not a good one because I'm not arguing that people's motivations can't change. Goku's change in motivation if there is one, during that battle are still within his established character. I also think you created such lengthy posts that have nothing to do with Gohan's headspace that I think you miss the point.

It's within Goku's established character, I agree. The point, however, is that once the playing field is level, or in one's favor (like in Gohan's case), a situation can be assessed or re-assessed if provided the opportunity. Gohan has never been "kill first, ask questions later" unless out of complete desperation. The playing field was level, at the least.

While I've been replying to you, I perhaps say more than necessary because I'm aware that there are others viewing this thread too. I try to keep that it mind to assist others in having an idea where I'm coming from.

I'm not familiar with Star Wars, other than certain names and terms (Ex., The Force). Your analogy appears to be referencing how a specific scene played out badly because of a blip or two, but not how an established character/behavioral trait had surfaced due to circumstances presenting themselves unlike previous Gohan conflicts. I'm having trouble seeing the comparison. There is no "jump" with Gohan, imo. Time had passed, growth occurred, and the threat (which Gohan did not connect with) could be looked at eye-to-eye after being thoroughly observed.

Now you are shy about doing guesswork?

Some of my previous half-shots in the air (Ex., RoSaT reveal possibly affecting behavior) related to the Gohan situation were attempting to come from a neutral position on the matter. I had been trying to see from the other side (why did Gohan change?), but I still stand by my original view that there was no change in Gohan (growth through different experiences over time). Apologies for the confusion, as I did a terrible job in not noting that. I also tend to speak in generalizations sometimes, even though I may be replying to one quote, which can be confusing as well. I did make sure to note neutral position in my previous post at least. :p

If there's been any bouncing around from the original topic on my end, it's been from a neutral stance, and back to my own.

Also, visual storytelling can present some problems, especially in a lightning-fast action series like DB. For example, the anime adaptation shows us Gohan froze up while the Cell Jr's are beating almost everyone. To the viewer, that's about half of the episode ("Why is Gohan just standing there for so long while Kuririn and others may be killed?"). So, 15 minutes or so passes for us, but in-universe, it's probably closer to 3 minutes before #16's head gets thrown into play.

How long did Goku charge up the Genki-dama on Namek? Was it really two full episodes of Freeza mostly standing there? Was Namek's explosion really given 5 minutes, or was it a miscalculation by Freeza? Did Popo collect all of Earth's DB's in 5 minutes?

Just saying. Those don't need to be answered here.

[ABED]

It just occured to me, if Gohan makes this change off screen about 2/3 of the way through the story only to resolve that conflict that has only just arisen, that's not good writing. Why not introduce it at the start of the arc?

your analogy appears to be referencing how a specific scene played out badly because of a blip or two, but not how an established character/behavioral trait had surfaced due to circumstances presenting themselves unlike previous Gohan conflicts. I'm having trouble seeing the comparison. There is no "jump" with Gohan, imo. Time had passed, growth occurred, and the threat (which Gohan did not connect with) could be looked at eye-to-eye after being thoroughly observed.

It's an analogy. The fundamentals are the same whether we are talking about plot progression or character arcs. If you start off a character one way and the steps from A to Z are missing, it's confusing. You keep using the term growth, but that wasn't growth. To keep it DB, it's easy to see why Gohan changed in the Saiyan arc. He's forced to grow up in order to stay alive. In the Cell arc, all we see is him one way and then he goes in a special room and he's psychologically another without any reason why. There's a step missing.

Also, visual storytelling can present some problems

I'm not sure what this is in reference to or how this has to do with Gohan. I think you are referring to "show, don't tell". If so, how you took it is not what I was referring to. Show, don't tell isn't an aphorism that's limited to visual arts. When writers say "show, don't tell", they mean if a character is independent, then show them being independent. Don't simply tell the reader in exposition, and the worst sin is to tell the reader that a character is independent but the writing conveys the opposite. In DB, assuming you are reading that dialog correctly, show me how Goku is acting different on Namek than he acted before. Yes, Vegeta says that, but how is it demonstrated?

[TheUltimateVegito]

Gohan's actions in the Cell Games were perfectly in character. I went in-depth on why in my character analysis on him:
viewtopic.php?t=34920

[TheUltimateVegito]

Gohan's actions in the Cell Games were perfectly in character. I went in-depth on why in my character analysis on him:
viewtopic.php?t=34920

[ABED]

We've been down this road before and Gohan never believed killing is a sin.

The big issue is Gohan's inner conflict is introduced at the tail end of the 2nd act only to be resolved before the climax of the third act. The revelation he has in order resolve his external problem is created towards the end of the story. Why? Using Jaws as an example, it would be like creating Brody's hatred of water at the end of the story only to resolve the new conflict rather quickly.

[TheUltimateVegito]

We've been down this road before and Gohan never believed killing is a sin.

The big issue is Gohan's inner conflict is introduced at the tail end of the 2nd act only to be resolved before the climax of the third act. The revelation he has in order resolve his external problem is created towards the end of the story. Why? Using Jaws as an example, it would be like creating Brody's hatred of water at the end of the story only to resolve the new conflict rather quickly.

He wouldn't have transformed into a SSJ2 in response to 16's speech if he didn't feel killing was a sin, he would've just gotten a rage boost instead.

Gohan's hidden potential was built up since his debut, the mystery surround his potential was 'what was the key to unleashing his powers' it's better storytelling for it to remain a mystery until the Cell Games than revealing it beforehand which would've dampened the big revelation of his belief that killing is a sin in the Cell Games.

[LuckyCat]

We've been down this road before and Gohan never believed killing is a sin.

That's up to interpretation. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Gohan has ever killed anyone ever (before Cell, of course). Even Garlic Jr. was just sealed away in the Dead Zone. I don't need Piccolo or Goku saying "Gee, Gohan hasn't killed anyone, go figure he wouldn't want to kill Cell." It's established by Gohan's actions.

[Gog]

We've been down this road before and Gohan never believed killing is a sin.

That's up to interpretation. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Gohan has ever killed anyone ever (before Cell, of course). Even Garlic Jr. was just sealed away in the Dead Zone. I don't need Piccolo or Goku saying "Gee, Gohan hasn't killed anyone, go figure he wouldn't want to kill Cell." It's established by Gohan's actions.

During the Namek Arc, near the beginning when they had just arrived on the planet itself Gohan killed a Freeza Solider, and he never lost any sleep over it.

[ABED]

Trying to kill someone is as good as killing them from a morality standpoint. He tried to kill Vegeta when he was fighting him and bounced the Genki Dama at him. He tried to kill Freeza to save Piccolo. He did kill several of the Four Monarchs. He simply didn't always succeed, but not due to lack of trying.

That's up to interpretation.

How is that up to interpretation. When were we ever shown that?

he didn't feel killing was a sin,

But he didn't. That's the point. It's a trait that's added at the last minute to make it seem more dramatic.

'what was the key to unleashing his powers' it's better storytelling for it to remain a mystery until the Cell Games than revealing it beforehand which would've dampened the big revelation of his belief that killing is a sin in the Cell Games.

How is that better storytelling? I get that an author wouldn't want to telegraph the story and his reveals, but introducing that conflict late into the story doesn't flow from the rest of the story. To go back to Jaws for a minute. Brody's hatred of water is introduced pretty early in the movie. Even if you haven't seen it before, there's a good chance that he will resolve that conflict by the end. That doesn't make it any less satisfying when it does happen. It's all about execution.

[TheUltimateVegito]

We've been down this road before and Gohan never believed killing is a sin.

That's up to interpretation. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Gohan has ever killed anyone ever (before Cell, of course). Even Garlic Jr. was just sealed away in the Dead Zone. I don't need Piccolo or Goku saying "Gee, Gohan hasn't killed anyone, go figure he wouldn't want to kill Cell." It's established by Gohan's actions.

During the Namek Arc, near the beginning when they had just arrived on the planet itself Gohan killed a Freeza Solider, and he never lost any sleep over it.

Gohan suppressed his beliefs that killing was a sin because he felt the greater cause was more important than his beliefs, hence why he was ready to kill during the Namek arc. The difference with the Cell Games was that he felt the fight was pointless, which led to his belief being brought up to the surface.

[ABED]

Now you are just making stuff up in order to justify not conceding. You are retconning Gohan's beliefs. Why would Gohan believe fighting Cell was pointless but killing two pissant lackies was justified?