Do you consider the Boo arc better than Super?

[Lord Beerus]

. More consistent art and animation, better character development for the cast, better overall direction.

I can't remember any scene from an animation standpoint in Z flow as smoothly as some of the sequences I've seen in Super. As for character development, the Buu arc was rather Saiyan obsessed, can't really agree with development for the overall cast other than Vegeta. And direction? just no, with all that mind number filler I can't agree with that at all. Music is alittle more subjective but I found a lot in the Zamasu arc and the current arc to be pretty great.

Don't get me wrong, I think the high points of Super visually (EP 57, 66, 79, 86, 95) beat out a lot, if not everything the franchise produced before it. But I think it was really only from Epsidoe 75 and onwards that the show really became consistent with it's art and animation. Prior to that, it was a really rollercoaster visually speaking. And as far as character development, it's not just Vegeta but also Mr Satan and Majin Boo who's character received far more depth than you realize.

[MR.Mark]

Actually you are right, I was focusing on the main fighting cast. Mr Satan did have a wonderful little arc of his own too that is true. Still though, Super's attempts to shine on the rest of the cast alittle more have been really nice imo.

[ABED]

Exactly, you back up my point by admitting that Goku and Vegeta vs Buu was more interesting from a PLOT perspective, and I AGREE with this.

BUT, that STILL doesn't mean it makes a lick of sense when even Goku says "OH YEAH WE CAN USE THE BOYS" only to have Vegeta go "LOL NOPE EARTHLING TIME CUZ RESPONSIBILITY MOFO!"

I bring up Gotenks because there's many instances early in the Buu arc that Goku WAS'NT looking for a good fight, actually it was Vegeta that was more obsessed with his pride to fight Goku. Goku went with Kaioshin first and foremost to HELP, making Vegeta angry because HE wanted to fight. He avoided fighting Vegeta until he was forced into it by Vegeta's murders. It was actually around the introduction of SSJ3 that Goku decisions start getting spotty and inconsistent and then leaning toward selfish near the very end.

I never admitted to that. I never said that or even implied that.

How does it not make sense? Was Vegeta incorrect? Did his strategy not work?

Please read my posts, Goku isn't against saving the world, it's just not his raison d'etre. The SS3 thing is very mixed issue because Goku was written out of character due to Toriyama having not created SS3 when Goku fought Majin Vegeta. Goku loves a challenge, but fighting Vegeta wouldn't be a challenge for him if he could turn SS3.

I keep forgetting Mr. Satan.

[8000 Saiyan]

They're both good.

[MR.Mark]

How does it not make sense? Was Vegeta incorrect? Did his strategy not work?

Because it was strategy written by Toriyama to make Goku the star, bottom line.

[ABED]

It was a logical strategy and not out of nowhere, either. And Goku is the star. Even if Gohan would've been there, Goku would still be the star. It's his story.

[MR.Mark]

It was a logical strategy and not out of nowhere, either. And Goku is the star. Even if Gohan would've been there, Goku would still be the star. It's his story.

Toriyama could of found a way to make Gohan help but for non nonsensical but entertaining thematic reasons he stuck with Goku and Vegeta.

[ABED]

It was a logical strategy and not out of nowhere, either. And Goku is the star. Even if Gohan would've been there, Goku would still be the star. It's his story.

Toriyama could of found a way to make Gohan help but for non nonsensical but entertaining thematic reasons he stuck with Goku and Vegeta.

It's could HAVE or could'VE, not could of. That's a big grammatical pet peeve of mine.

Could he have? Sure, but I'd rather he find a better way to keep him out of the fight. Goku and Vegeta are more interesting. Bringing in Gohan screws with that dynamic.

[MR.Mark]

Bringing in Gohan screws with that dynamic.

As a result, VegetaZ plan lacked basic logic beyond the flimsy excuse of letting the earth deal with there problems for a change.

However you spell it, that's a big asspullachino.

[ABED]

Bringing in Gohan screws with that dynamic.

As a result, VegetaZ plan lacked basic logic beyond the flimsy excuse of letting the earth deal with there problems for a change.

However you spell it, that's a big asspullachino.

Nope. It's not a deus ex machina as the attack has been sufficiently set up. Vegeta remembers the attack from over a decade prior.

I do agree that letting Earth deal with its issues could've been set up better, but the actual attack is solid.

[MR.Mark]

the attack has been sufficiently set up.

Explain how please(achino).

Unless you want to imply that "Cuz Goku used it in the past" or "cuz Vegeta says it's time for earthlings to help (suddenly)."

. Vegeta remembers the attack from over a decade prior.

Vegeta has memory function, that's good to know, however how does that make it good story telling beyond being a cool finisher for Goku?

[ABED]

the attack has been sufficiently set up.

Explain how please(achino).

Unless you want to imply that "Cuz Goku used it in the past" or "cuz Vegeta says it's time for earthlings to help (suddenly)."

. Vegeta remembers the attack from over a decade prior.

Vegeta has memory function, that's good to know, however how does that make it good story telling beyond being a cool finisher for Goku?

It's good storytelling because not only does Vegeta have knowledge of the attacks existence, the attack had been around for years. Goku didn't suddenly and without reason have a finishing move. The payoff was setup prior. The antithesis of that is Superman's timetravel ability in Superman: The Movie which was never mentioned prior but is a convenient solution for the problem of his dead love interest. So no, I'm not going to simply imply, I'm flat out saying. Goku using it in the past proves that it's not a deus ex machina.

[MR.Mark]

So by that logic Goku defeating Kid Buu with a full power Kamehameha because Vegeta told him to would of been good story telling because he's learned that attack many years ago and used it before.

[Saikyo no Senshi]

That Gokuu and Vegeta fight from Dragon Ball Z episode #232 is the vision of the episode director Yama'uchi Shigeyasu who is a professional. A super professional. It is his style. Using slow motion with back and forth choreography. And, he is a fucking legend in the industry. Look it up. Those cuts are by Yamamuro Tadayoshi which to date is still his only piece of memorable animation.

It has nothing to do with budget or whatever. It is done on purpose. Also, smooth and fluid doesn't necessarily mean good animation.

[MR.Mark]

Isn't movement itself a hugely important aspect of animation in the first place? You could scream the man's a legend and defend choppy low frame animation, but there's no need to get offended about my opinion.

I mean, I won't throw just DBZ under the bus, it's common practice for a lot of Japanese animation to sacrifice frames of animation and make up for it with usually nice artwork.

However you shouldn't lump art and animation into the same category.

As brief as some of the shots are, Super provides the best of both worlds with good on model art and fluid animation.

To me that shot in the BOG movie with the Hero song was a game changer for Dragon Ball animation.

[Saikyo no Senshi]

My response was to the comment on that fight having no artistic vision which is incorrect. It is a particular director's style and nothing to do with budget or anything.

Movement is important. Agreed. But, it depends on the context of the scene. Good animation/art is of many forms. Fluidity and smooth movement is one of them, but not the only one. That's my point. And, Japanese animation has excelled at proving this notion of only smooth animation is good wrong with how they approach the medium(frame modulation most importantly compared to Western cartoons). Gorgeous stills or a facial expression with no movement can be memorable as well. There are drawbacks to every style. In case of super fluid animation, if not executed well it lacks weight.

So, context and then execution by the director/animator is most important. The film scene that you mentioned is a good example. It works in what it is trying to depict with nice execution thanks to an incredible animator. Similarly, the Gokuu Vegeta fight works as well with the only difference being style.

[ABED]

So by that logic Goku defeating Kid Buu with a full power Kamehameha because Vegeta told him to would of been good story telling because he's learned that attack many years ago and used it before.

That's such an odd example. Why would Goku need to be told to use a full power Kamehameha? Vegeta's plan was a little more elaborate than using a powerful attack. I don't know how your example is comparable.

[ABED]

Also, considering that everyone's energy was taken, including Gohan's, the logical inference is that Gohan couldn't have defeated Kid Buu.

Goku's afraid to fight Super Boo without some kind of fusion and he's stronger then Kid Boo, I doubt Gohan or even Gotenks couldn't beat him if their vastly weaker dad can stalemate him.

We don't know if Super Buu is stronger than Kid Buu. There's not enough to go on. Goku couldn't stalemate him. He was running out of energy quickly. It took every ounce of spare ki from the entire Earth to defeat Kid Buu and even then, Goku had to be rejuvenated by the DB's to destroy Buu for good. I'm not arguing that Kid Buu is in fact stronger, only that it's uncertain.

[TheZFighter]

I have always thought the Buu saga was brilliant, personally.

[precita]

I thought the Boo saga handled the main cast extremely well, even if eventually Trunks/Goten and Gohan didn't stop Buu:

- Gohan is treated like a major character all the way up till he gets absorbed by Buu. His entire characterisation and personality is also all new since it's the first time seeing him as an adult

- Trunks and Goten are treated like the next main characters, essentially similar to Gohan in the Saiyan/Freeza arcs.

- Vegeta has great moments with Majin Vegeta, his sacrifice, and then eventually working with Mr. Satan and Buu to gather energy from Earth.

- Goku naturally takes a backseat but still gets plenty of time to shine throughout the saga

- Piccolo becomes Trunks/Gotens' mentor, confronts Babidi, and works with them throughout the saga. He doesn't fight, but it's good use of the character.

- Mr. Satan becomes a major character. Since he was only in the very tail-end of the Cell arc, this was our first time to see Satan as more than just a gag character and saved the Earth again.

- Dende gets a pretty nice role too, given he only briefly returned at the end of the Cell arc

- 18 at the least gets a fight with Trunks/Goten in the tournament, even if she could have done more

- Yes, Krillin, Yamcha and Tenshinhan all take a backseat in the Buu arc, but since this was intended to be the last arc it sort of makes sense that everyone was "retiring" so to speak.


Aside from Gohan not getting the final win, I thought Buu arc handled the cast well.