Did Dragon Ball REALLY need Funimation to thrive?

[8000 Saiyan]

It was the fault of the broadcasters of the Harmony Gold dub, clearly they did nothing to promote the show. I don't know why Dragon Ball wouldn't have succeeded if it didn't have a good timeslot and channel that knew how to get people excited (as Toonami did for better or for worse) from the get-go.

If that's the case, then thank God the Harmony Gold dub failed. I would have kept Barbara Goodson and Wendee Lee as Goku and Bulma, had Pioneer picked up Dragon Ball.

The castings were good, and I'm glad Wendee Lee came back for the Bang Zoom dub of Super although I wouldn't have liked Harmony Gold's name changes to be retained.

Me neither.

[KBABZ]

Since we've come this far into the conversation, I don't really like the question itself. No, logically Dragon Ball did not need Funimation to thrive. But then if that happened, in an alternate universe this thread would be titled "Did Dragon Ball REALLY need Pioneer to thrive?" and we'd be saying "No, Dragon Ball is good enough on its own that Harmony Gold would have succeeded with it were it not for the timeslot". I mean, an alternate version of the question would be "Did Dragon Ball REALLY need Shonen Jump to thrive?" and it pretty much has the same answer.

[ABED]

Since we've come this far into the conversation, I don't really like the question itself. No, logically Dragon Ball did not need Funimation to thrive. But then if that happened, in an alternate universe this thread would be titled "Did Dragon Ball REALLY need Pioneer to thrive?" and we'd be saying "No, Dragon Ball is good enough on its own that Harmony Gold would have succeeded with it were it not for the timeslot". I mean, an alternate version of the question would be "Did Dragon Ball REALLY need Shonen Jump to thrive?" and it pretty much has the same answer.

DB isn't the same story without Shonen Jump. Change his editors and you change the story in huge ways.

[KBABZ]

Since we've come this far into the conversation, I don't really like the question itself. No, logically Dragon Ball did not need Funimation to thrive. But then if that happened, in an alternate universe this thread would be titled "Did Dragon Ball REALLY need Pioneer to thrive?" and we'd be saying "No, Dragon Ball is good enough on its own that Harmony Gold would have succeeded with it were it not for the timeslot". I mean, an alternate version of the question would be "Did Dragon Ball REALLY need Shonen Jump to thrive?" and it pretty much has the same answer.

DB isn't the same story without Shonen Jump. Change his editors and you change the story in huge ways.

Okay, bad example, but did my point come across?

[Zephyr]

Funimation altered the shit out of Toriyama and Toei's work. The implied point of contention embedded in the question is: were Funimation's radical alterations necessary for Dragon Ball to thrive in the US?

So the analogies don't really work.

[KBABZ]

Funimation altered the shit out of Toriyama and Toei's work. The implied point of contention embedded in the question is: were Funimation's radical alterations necessary for Dragon Ball to thrive in the US?

So the analogies don't really work.

See I interpreted it as "If Funimation didn't exist would Dragon Ball still be popular if someone else dubbed it to the West?

[Zephyr]

I gotcha. The only reason that Funimation gets isolated is because of those radical changes. Apologists tend to argue that such changes were necessary. The thread topic is a general response to that sentiment.

[KBABZ]

I gotcha. The only reason that Funimation gets isolated is because of those radical changes. Apologists tend to argue that such changes were necessary. The thread topic is a general response to that sentiment.

Well as mentioned earlier, Harmony Gold had radical changes to the names. Regardless of that though, I'd never argue that the changes Funimation made were necessary; I freaking love Kai, and Makangasappo is way cooler to shout out than Special Beam Cannon for example, but I think the evidence is clear that the changes didn't really matter in terms of DBZ's overall popularity in the West. What it did do however was create a massive gulf in the English-speaking fanbase where either side will shout the other side out of the room for using certain terms or just plain preferring one over the other, and that's a pretty bad wound on the franchise as a whole.

For the record, my touchstone of familiarity is with the 2002 dub of the original Dragon Ball; I have no familiarity with the DBZ dub despite watching a fair bit of the Namek stuff when I was a kid (I just plain can't remember any of it). I did watch a YouTube clip of the finale to the Frieza fight, and it was cringe-worthy with things like "I'm gonna SLAP some sense into you!!". I can only really speak for the 02 DB dub, something that most English-speaking fans aren't as vocal or passionate about, and having gone through both it and the manga side-by-side in the process of making The First Chapters, I'd say that the dub is mostly faithful in terms of the writing. There are of course name changes abound like Turtle and Roshi and Suno and Korin and Mercenary Tao and Tien and Kami and Hero and World Martial Arts Tournament, but for me at least it sticks pretty close with the writing itself.

That is, up until the material starts morphing into Z; the first major instance of writing changes that impacted the story (outside of Goku and Krillin not-discussing the Announcer's glasses) was when King Piccolo claimed that he had "traveled all over the universe" and had never encountered anyone as strong as Goku. From then on there was always at least one instance of a strange line alteration per episode. My only reasoning for this is because, when Dragon Ball was further away from Z in tone, Funimation didn't see a need to change it. Not like anyone was watching, right? But when it got closer to Z, I suspect they changed it to make it "more marketable" and appeal more to the Z fans. And these changes do come off as frustrating because it's almost like they're written to mess with people familiar with the source material, in particular Goku "realizing" that Hero/Kami is an alien despite the fact that it wouldn't happen until Z, a part of the story Funimation had already covered.


...oops, seem to have gone on a tangent there.

[Zephyr]

There's also Goku's comment that he has to follow his heart, or some shit, when he agrees to marry Chichi. It's a script change that alters Goku's character.

Buy yes, if nothing else, the one thing that Funimation's radical changes inarguably did was irrevocably fuck the NA fanbase beyond repair.

[KBABZ]

There's also Goku's comment that he has to follow his heart, or some shit, when he agrees to marry Chichi. It's a script change that alters Goku's character.

Spoiler:

In the dub it goes as such:

Sometimes my brain doesn't know what my mouth is saying! Good thing my heart does... will you marry me?

In the manga (or at least, the Viz translation), it's:

Wow... and all this time, I thought she meant something to eat! -thinking: Well, I guess that's it... I did promise!- Okay! We'd better get married!

And in the subtitle translation (which according to the DVD credits was done by Clyde Mandelin), it's:

But, well, I did make you a promise. So, want to get married?

It does alter Goku's character a bit, but for me it at least somewhat justifies the relationship in the first place, rather than "okay sure, whatevs!". When I move on to Kai after watching DB, the line helps justify moments like Goku having horrible visions of Frieza killing Chi-Chi while Frieza holds him underwater, or behaves affectionately towards her in certain parts of the Android and Cell saga. You could also interpret the dub line as meaning "Well, my heart says it'd be awful if I let this girl down".

Buy yes, if nothing else, the one thing that Funimation's radical changes inarguably did was irrevocably fuck the NA fanbase beyond repair.

I was more meaning beyond that. The relationship between those who prefer the Japanese original and those who prefer the dub is often hostile, to the point where I've heard of this in Dragon Ball and yet I don't hear about it from, say, the Pokémon community with things like the change from Satoshi to Ash or the jelly doughnut rice balls.

I suppose I should also clarify that the join date you see under my avatar is also when I first entered a Dragon Ball community of any kind. I haven't been on any dub-leaning communities, nor have I been in any source material communities before Kanzenshuu, and the first time I heard about the frothing dub-hate days of yore was when Vegetto mentioned it on a podcast episode during an archive binge.

[Ripper 30]

No not at all. It's just that FUNimation was lucky to get the dubbing rights otherwise I don't think that if FUNimation hadn't got the dubbing rights then Dragon Ball wouldn't be big in the west. Infact I wish that a company like Viz had got the Dubbing rights so that we would have an accurate dub and we wouldn't have these Dub vs Sub Wars in the fandom.

Despite how Funimation treated Dragon Ball until 2009, they have had my full respect since Dragon Ball Kai. They casted Chris Ayres, who is simply the best English voice for Frieza. I think people should give them enough credit for that.

If they had cast Ayres from episode 1 of Kai I would give them more credit for that, instead, it was very apparent that they wanted Linda Young back in the role and the recasting was more of a happy accident on their part. Because of that, I'm less inclined to praise them for it. I love Ayres' performance and have no problem directly praising him and what he did with the role but I don't feel the need to give Funimation props when they avoided recastings on Kai as much as possible from the outset. If they had taken more risks and perhaps also recast characters such as King Kai, Piccolo (or alternatively, Vegeta), Yamcha, Recoome, Kami and (dare I say) teenage Gohan I'd be more willing to give them praise. As far as I can tell the only reason Nadolny didn't come back as well was due to personal issues with the director (Sabat), if it wasn't for that we probably wouldn't have a new kid Gohan either. The recastings were improvements when they occurred but they didn't do them as often as they really should have in my opinion.

I think Hebert does a good job as Gohan. Sure he may sound older than his age, but then again there are a lot of people who sound older than their age. For example, Christopher Daniel Barnes didn't really sound like he was 19 years old as Spider-Man, but he still did an excellent job.

They also should have recasted Roshi. Sadly, they didn't and we still don't have a great voice for him.

That's exactly my point as NitroEX made that the recasting made in DBZ Kai Dub was not planned but just happened due to circumstances otherwise Linda was supposed to play Freeza in Kai Dub and if that had happened then It would have been not much different than Z Dub and it would be like a remastered version of the remastered dub with slightly accurate script and same voices and I am not sure if Nadolny's Gohan would have improved or not but I am sure it still wouldn't fit Gohan in Saiyan Arc no matter how much she haD improved in Kai but luckily we got those 2 voices Recasted.

also, we got #18 Recasted and this time she sounded more energetic and like a cocky Teenager in Kai like she was supposed to as Collen used the similar voice she used for Momiji in Good Luck Girl Dub unlike the voice of #18 in DBZ Dub which sounded so boring and bland as if the McCoy wasn't even trying to emote a little.

Even Chris Sabat's Vegeta had rasp in voice in Saiyan Arc of Kai but as he progressed further, his voice got better. Sean's Kaiō wasn't much different from Z Dub I don't know why they couldn't recast his voice in Kai Dub.
Even Bang Zoom Dub Kaiō sounds way better than FUNi's Kaiō.

Fat Boo's Voice was another bad thing about Kai which got even more annoying in Kai Dub and I had to literally skip most of the scenes where Fat Boo was screaming when I was watching Kai TFC, Yamucha and Piccolo should have been Recasted in Kai Dub but FUNi like saving budget and also there were translation errors in Kai like in the scene where Kami tells how a person who is killed by demon clansman has his spirit drifting in space but never reaching spiritual Realm but despite that after raditz getting killed By Piccolo managed to get his spirit to Spiritual realm proved that Piccolo had a change of heart but in Dub I don't know why they changed it to something like Piccolo realizing that Kami's death nearing or something like that.

Also there was inconsistentacies of FUNi not retaining the proper terms of attack names like Piccolo saying "Makankosappo" against raditz only for it being changed to "Special Beam Cannon" when Bootenks fires it On Ultimate Gohan in Boo Arc or Kuririn saying "Kienzan" and " Taiyo Ken" In Saiyan Arc only for it to be changed to "Destructo Disk" and "Solar Flare" in Cell Arc.

Sean Schemmel's Gokū voice just got too deeper in Both Kai 1.0 and TFC and same for Kyle Herbert's Gohan which was again too deep in TFC and by no means a 16 year old kid can sound that deep and at times he overacted a lot, I find Brad Swaile's Gohan to be more fitting than Kyle's.
I personally think FUNimation Dubs of Dragon Ball are very very very very Overrated, there are like tons and tons of Anime Dubs which are better acted than it still they get overlooked.

[KBABZ]

there were translation errors in Kai like in the scene where Kami tells how a person who is killed by demon clansman has his spirit drifting in space but never reaching spiritual Realm but despite that after raditz getting killed By Piccolo managed to get his spirit to Spiritual realm proved that Piccolo had a change of heart

It's explained in the Kai Dub where Kami explicitly points this out, and says that it's a sign that Piccolo is not the evil being he once was like his father. He states Piccolo's kidnapping of Gohan over outright killing him as another example of his change of heart.

Also there was inconsistentacies of FUNi not retaining the proper terms of attack names like Piccolo saying "Makankosappo" against raditz only for it being changed to "Special Beam Cannon" when Bootenks fires it On Ultimate Gohan in Boo Arc

Considering he's the king of corny attacks, I'd pick Gotenks of all characters to be allowed to call it that.

Gohan which was again too deep in TFC and by no means a 16 year old kid can sound that deep

Hah, you should have heard me at that age!

[Zephyr]

Spoiler:

In the dub it goes as such:

Sometimes my brain doesn't know what my mouth is saying! Good thing my heart does... will you marry me?

In the manga (or at least, the Viz translation), it's:

Wow... and all this time, I thought she meant something to eat! -thinking: Well, I guess that's it... I did promise!- Okay! We'd better get married!

And in the subtitle translation (which according to the DVD credits was done by Clyde Mandelin), it's:

But, well, I did make you a promise. So, want to get married?

It does alter Goku's character a bit, but for me it at least somewhat justifies the relationship in the first place, rather than "okay sure, whatevs!". When I move on to Kai after watching DB, the line helps justify moments like Goku having horrible visions of Frieza killing Chi-Chi while Frieza holds him underwater, or behaves affectionately towards her in certain parts of the Android and Cell saga. You could also interpret the dub line as meaning "Well, my heart says it'd be awful if I let this girl down".

Oh shit, I missed this! Thanks for reposting it.

It does more to justify it, but "okay sure, whatevs!" is exactly who Goku is. You could later interpret the dub line as such, if you already know who Goku is supposed to be. But if you don't, then the more common sense reading of the scene (Goku being romantic) would shine through instead. I don't think those moments where he demonstrates affection for her warrant that kind of explicit justification. They lived together for five years, I don't need anything else to convince me that he cares for her by now.

Buy yes, if nothing else, the one thing that Funimation's radical changes inarguably did was irrevocably fuck the NA fanbase beyond repair.

I was more meaning beyond that. The relationship between those who prefer the Japanese original and those who prefer the dub is often hostile, to the point where I've heard of this in Dragon Ball and yet I don't hear about it from, say, the Pokémon community with things like the change from Satoshi to Ash or the jelly doughnut rice balls.

The blatant and, yes it is indeed two-sided, tribalism is definitely bad, but I was getting more at things like a gigantic section of fandom...

- failing to grasp the more mystical and spiritual Wuxia-derived aspects that underpin the mythos of the world itself and the things that the characters do (by way of Funimation downplaying those aspects)
- developing an obnoxious battle power/strength/VS.-match-up obsession (by way of re-running the two arcs that featured Battle Powers ad-nauseam, artificially inflating their supposed importance)
- failing to grasp Toriyama's brand of humor and whimsy and irreverence that makes Dragon Ball a distinct and interesting and endearing piece of Wuxia fiction in the first place (by altering his dialog, altering his characters' personalities, and altering his hilariously meticulous naming puns).

Making their dub of Dragon Ball relatively faithful, while radically upping how "hardcore" Dragon Ball Z is has also done nothing more than fuel the hilariously incorrect misconception that Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z are two distinct stories with two distinct tones, creating the silly myth that everything prior to Raditz' arrival is some Optional Comedic Prequel™.

They've created something that masquerades as Dragon Ball, without a lot of the substance that makes it what it is; the rough sequence of story beats and plot points are left in-tact, but that's simply a skeleton. The bulk of the North American fandom seems to live in a different world, where the name "Dragon Ball" corresponds to a different work entirely. Not to a Mystical Kung Fu Epic told through the lens of a guy who draws poop jokes for cigarettes, but rather to some WWE-styled-melodramatic Western Saturday Morning Cartoon about Earth's Special Forces™.

Granted, Toriyama's distinctive art style is left in-tact, as are the crazy mystical kung fu battles the characters have (even if their existence as such is downplayed), so of course it's still fun, entertaining, and will draw in elementary schoolers and middle schoolers. And it did. The people who claim to have been drawn in exclusively, or predominantly, by Funimation's choice of Voice Actors or their choice of Musical Score Replacement seem like a very vocal minority. Most kids won't care what it sounds like, shit's fucking cool.

[Kunzait_83]

I was more meaning beyond that. The relationship between those who prefer the Japanese original and those who prefer the dub is often hostile, to the point where I've heard of this in Dragon Ball and yet I don't hear about it from, say, the Pokémon community with things like the change from Satoshi to Ash or the jelly doughnut rice balls.

Zephyr handled the bulk of the substance of this post absolutely spot on perfectly, so I don't have much more to add to it beyond one final comment on this bit.

The above comparison between DB and Pokemon is in itself completely misplaced and incongruous. This is gonna tick off a lot of people but screw it, its true: the root of the discrepancy between DB dub fans and sub fans is rooted in far, far, FAR more creative substance than that of Pokemon's two versions because DB in itself CONTAINS far more substance than does Pokemon. Is that to say that DB itself is a work of a tremendous degree of depth and meaning? Absolutely not whatsoever, certainly not in the grand scheme of creative works of fiction by any remote stretch. But in relative comparison to a work like Pokemon, the gulf of the difference there is quite vast.

Dragon Ball was from start to finish (of its core manga/original run at least) not only a singular work told by a singular author, but one where creative appeal to the whims of said author was almost 100% central. The manga sold insanely well and by extension drew in a ton of merch sales, but Toriyama had nearly complete and utter authorial control throughout (with only some sporadic bits of input from his editors). Dragon Ball reflects the creative sensibilities of a single creative individual and acts as a conduit into his own warped, demented little imagination and his own particular quirks and interests.

There is at the very least SOME vestige of a shred of artistic and creative substance from which to draw from that context, which many people can (and have) written quite extensively about and which lends itself to a fairly great degree of deeper discussion. At almost no point during its original run did the merchandising/commercialism tail wag the manga/creative dog (which for something as lucrative as DB was, is basically a miraculous unicorn of such an example). Toriyama was persuaded to keep going past its original intended ending point, but the key word is persuaded (and yes, a fair amount of that "persuasion" probably indeed boiled down to $$$). He had full ability to stop whenever he wanted, and if he did then that would be that no matter Shueisha or Toei's protests. And indeed, once he truly DID have enough and truly had run out of ideas and steam, then that was certainly it for over 20+ years, regardless of the money that was dangled about.

Like it or not, as much of a merch juggernaut as it is, DB is still ultimately an auteurist work (the revival is a whole other matter entirely).

This runs in STARK opposition to Pokemon. Pokemon is 100% pure commercialism by corporate committee through and through. The original reason why DB came into existence was via a spark of imagination on Toriyama's end, and that spark ultimately acted as the primary force that drove the whole original series and lead from there to insane profit and merch sales as well. Pokemon, certainly the anime at least, was by contrast birthed almost entirely within a corporate vat of marketing. Yes, the original idea for the games came from a more singular artistic spark, but the anime (which is what's being brought up here), as well as virtually EVERYTHING else Pokemon related aside from the original idea for the original game, is an entirely separate matter.

Dragon Ball itself exists on SOME level primarily to appeal to the creative whims of its author, and the rest of the world had decided that it wanted in on that ride. Pokemon exists, certainly as an anime, almost ENTIRELY to generate sales and revenue from the wallets of kids hooked by a marketing blitz. The anime has almost zero artistic and narrative substance for someone TO get attached to, as it is effectively little more than a commercial for the games and merchandise, without any shred of genuine creative inspiration fueling it.

THAT to me is the key difference in the level of vitriol between DB dub and sub fans and Pokemon dub and sub fans. When DB dub and sub fans argue, the root of the arguments boil down to a fundamental difference in creative tone, intent, and narrative/character-based meaning, all of which actually DO matter on some level to DB's effectiveness and appeal to certain types of audiences. When Pokemon dub and sub fans argue, its generally often over little more than pedantic details (names, rote data, etc) because Pokemon has absolutely no singular, artistic vision that is fueling it. It is the work of a bazillion marketing suits working in tandem trying to appeal to as many millions upon millions of children's raw ids as possible. And that's also not to say that DB fans don't also argue over pedantic, meaningless details themselves: but those aren't really the core, fundamental difference that explains the levels of passion and vitriol at work in these debates.

Again: none of this is even REMOTELY to suggest that DB is high literary art of any sort. Just that in a comparison between it and Pokemon, its like comparing the original Mirage TMNT comic to Transformers. The former was a genuine quirky work of independent creativity that SPAWNED a kids' merchanding empire later on almost despite itself and was never at any point in its conception designed to, the latter by contrast WAS a corporate kids' merchandising endeavor from the getgo that was born in a toy company's boardroom with absolutely no artistic vision to initially back it.

Other than being Japanese animation shows aimed at children and just so coincidentally happening to hook a mainstream American audience during the same timeframe, DB and Pokemon have almost nothing at all in common by way of comparison, up to and including the nature of the disagreements between their respective dub and sub fandoms. One has some small shred of artistic substance that's rooted at the core of the stark divide between its fanbase, the other is just an ad executive's wet dream come true that happened to gain incredible legs over a vast stretch of time, and isn't typically going to snag anyone's imagination or emotions on anywhere near as nuanced of a level.

[KBABZ]

The blatant and, yes it is indeed two-sided, tribalism is definitely bad, but I was getting more at things like a gigantic section of fandom...

- failing to grasp the more mystical and spiritual Wuxia-derived aspects that underpin the mythos of the world itself and the things that the characters do (by way of Funimation downplaying those aspects)
- developing an obnoxious battle power/strength/VS.-match-up obsession (by way of re-running the two arcs that featured Battle Powers ad-nauseam, artificially inflating their supposed importance)
- failing to grasp Toriyama's brand of humor and whimsy and irreverence that makes Dragon Ball a distinct and interesting and endearing piece of Wuxia fiction in the first place (by altering his dialog, altering his characters' personalities, and altering his hilariously meticulous naming puns).

Agreed, particularly due to the fact that (as far as I can tell) Shonen doesn't work based on logical math in the grander scheme of things and prefers to ignore that in service of simply showing "Ohhh look how strong he is how're they gonna win??!?", but of course most people in the dub fandom has no idea what Shonen even is, let alone what its tropes are. They see DBZ as a US product that comes from Japan, if that makes sense. Kid Goku Dragon Ball is by far and away my favourite portion of the series because it's more focused on adventure and fun and occasional humour than it is with the next big arc villain and how they'll defeat him.

Making their dub of Dragon Ball relatively faithful, while radically upping how "hardcore" Dragon Ball Z is has also done nothing more than fuel the hilariously incorrect misconception that Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z are two distinct stories with two distinct tones, creating the silly myth that everything prior to Raditz' arrival is some Optional Comedic Prequel™.

Which as you can probably guess I vehemently disagree with. I'm with you on this one especially; in the thread about Dub Changes and Lines You Actually Like, I listed an added narration in the Funimation dub that talks about how wondrous Goku finds the world around him as he explores and discovers it for himself. This for me is one of the big reasons why Dragon Ball is important Z; it does a lot to actually justify why Goku cares about planet Earth at large, where he does things like meeting Suno and Eighter, having laughs with Krillin or finding pirate treasure, so that him being so thoughtful about Earth feel like a natural part of his character (second to fighting obviously), rather than just being an Orange Superman. It makes his line "I'm Son Goku now!! Get the heck off my planet!!" to Raditz carry that much more weight.

And also there's the part where we actually get to know characters like Bulma and Master Roshi and Krillin and Tien and Yamcha, before they're placed aside in favour of folks like Vegeta and Gohan. Not to mention the complex relationship and backstory Piccolo has!

They've created something that masquerades as Dragon Ball, without a lot of the substance that makes it what it is; the rough sequence of story beats and plot points are left in-tact, but that's simply a skeleton. The bulk of the North American fandom seems to live in a different world, where the name "Dragon Ball" corresponds to a different work entirely. Not to a Mystical Kung Fu Epic told through the lens of a guy who draws poop jokes for cigarettes, but rather to some WWE-styled-melodramatic Western Saturday Morning Cartoon about Earth's Special Forces™.

Granted, Toriyama's distinctive art style is left in-tact, as are the crazy mystical kung fu battles the characters have (even if their existence as such is downplayed), so of course it's still fun, entertaining, and will draw in elementary schoolers and middle schoolers. And it did. The people who claim to have been drawn in exclusively, or predominantly, by Funimation's choice of Voice Actors or their choice of Musical Score Replacement seem like a very vocal minority. Most kids won't care what it sounds like, shit's fucking cool.

As someone coming into all of this relatively late compared to everyone else (after concluding the original show I didn't revisit it and become a capital-f Fan of it until a year or two ago; I'm 27 now), it's kinda both. There's enough of the core story thread there that the main cliff notes and story beats are the same, and yet there are so many differences in things like the writing, tone and character performances that they can also be considered different shows. It certainly makes discussing it more complicated.

As a disconnected dub fan of DB and Kai who is used to the western names and voices, I am trying to fit in with this place, and to appreciate the original work more than the usual dub fan would. The podcast and the site as a whole has definitely helped with that, as it's been so incredibly informative for many facets like authorial intent, Toriyama's inspirations, the names, and stuff like that. My favourite episodes are the ones that seek to dissect and discover things in the original work, as I find it far more interesting because it adds a lot of depth and intrigue to the work as a whole, compared to the relatively face-value feel of the 90s dubs.

---

@Kunzait83: Those are all very good points and I agree with almost all of it, however I do find it hard to believe that there weren't some people in the staff who wanted to express their creativity in its production. More to the point, I don't think a story's creative merit would matter in an argument about a character's name if both sides are passionate about the work itself.

The other big difference between the DB anime and the Pokémon anime (or Digimon as another example) is that with Dragon Ball, it can be all traced back to a singular storyteller, Toriyama, while with Pokémon there isn't such a figure for the anime. Satoshi Tajiri of course created the original work, but the anime doesn't base itself off of what little story is in the games. Dragon Ball meanwhile is basically a panel-for-panel recreation and thus can actually be compared to the original work.

[Zephyr]

Dragon Ball is important Z; it does a lot to actually justify why Goku cares about planet Earth at large, where he does things like meeting Suno and Eighter, having laughs with Krillin or finding pirate treasure, so that him being so thoughtful about Earth feel like a natural part of his character (second to fighting obviously), rather than just being an Orange Superman. It makes his line "I'm Son Goku now!! Get the heck off my planet!!" to Raditz carry that much more weight.

And also there's the part where we actually get to know characters like Bulma and Master Roshi and Krillin and Tien and Yamcha, before they're placed aside in favour of folks like Vegeta and Gohan. Not to mention the complex relationship and backstory Piccolo has!

Yes! The biggest missed opportunity, I think, by skipping the first six story arcs, is that the horrible shit that happens in the seventh story arc carries a tiny fraction of the weight it does in comparison to when the story is consumed in the created order.

As a disconnected dub fan of DB and Kai who is used to the western names and voices, I am trying to fit in with this place, and to appreciate the original work more than the usual dub fan would. The podcast and the site as a whole has definitely helped with that, as it's been so incredibly informative for many facets like authorial intent, Toriyama's inspirations, the names, and stuff like that. My favourite episodes are the ones that seek to dissect and discover things in the original work, as I find it far more interesting because it adds a lot of depth and intrigue to the work as a whole, compared to the relatively face-value feel of the 90s dubs.

I can relate to an extent. I started as a dub fan myself (pulled in by Toonami, but before Season 3). Not long after joining here in 2010, I became accustomed to the Japanese cast and nomenclature as I started following Japanese Kai streams on a whim. Around the same time, I discovered TFS' Abridged series, and was introduced to Cha La for the first time. Everything came to a head after I ordered the first FUNi Dragon Box. One night, I got high, and decided I was going to watch Dragon Ball Z in Japanese. I went through with it, and haven't fully looked back since. The material seemed exotic again, and the experience felt truly authentic for the first time. I went down the rabbit hole, and it paid off. In hind sight, I guess I've always been enamored by how mysteriously full of details-I-didn't-know it was, and that fueled my intense curiosity.

I honestly, as a former dub fan, don't understand hardcore dubfans who have this bizarre aversion to going down the rabbit hole, despite a consistently purported and/or demonstrated 'passion' for the series. It feels half-assed. It feels inconsistent. It almost feels insincere.

Point of this rant being, don't feel like because of your entry-point, you're inherently unwelcome here. Strictly speaking, no viewpoint is unwelcome around here. It's all about how you justify and articulate that viewpoint. So technically, there's nothing taboo, restricted, banned, or off limits about dub preference. The issue comes only when said preference is paired with and propped up by long-countered defenses.

An example: I'm now a shameless, fully-committed sub fan. I'll rep Kikuchi as the sole most worthy, fitting, appropriate, and definitive composer for the entire franchise. However, I can see why someone might enjoy Faulconer. The timbres he uses on his more memorable tracks evoke within me memories of the Sega Genesis soundfont, and the compositions in particular remind me of Vectorman. Either way, I enjoy it, even if it's as something besides something I'd want to hear alongside Dragon Ball.

[Super Sayian Prime]

I guess I'm going to be the odd one out and say Dragon Ball needed Funimation. Not because I'm in awe of the business wit of Gen Fukunaga or Barry Watson, but I'm just not sure someone else would've been desperate enough to bother. If you look at the other WSJ hits of the era, how many of them came to North America before Dragon Ball? Fist of the North Star, Saint Seiya, Ultimate Muscle, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, Slam Dunk, Yu Yu Hakusho, and Rurouni Kenshin all came after Dragon Ball was on TV. Thinking about it, how many really long anime series came over during the mid-90s? There was Ranma, but that was a Shogakukan property distributed by a Shogakukan subsidiary (Shueisha didn't co-own Viz until 2002). Sailor Moon, which was younger, and could easily be marketed as "Power Rangers for girls, but animated, so it has less realistic violence!" and Pokemon, which was younger and part of a massive coordinated marketing push across almost all retail categories.

Toriyama's works already had a stench of failure in the English world. Harmony Gold tried selling Dr. Slump and Dragon Ball to no success. Saban attempted a dub of a Dragon Quest anime, which was also unsuccessful. I'm just not convinced someone else would've given Dragon Ball another shot. Would Pioneer or Bandai Entertainment want to touch a decade-old multi-hundred episode beast like Dragon Ball? Would Toei have given the keys to the Lexus to some dude's nephew if they felt a more qualified partner could happen? I don't think so.

[KBABZ]

Dragon Ball is important Z; it does a lot to actually justify why Goku cares about planet Earth at large, where he does things like meeting Suno and Eighter, having laughs with Krillin or finding pirate treasure, so that him being so thoughtful about Earth feel like a natural part of his character (second to fighting obviously), rather than just being an Orange Superman. It makes his line "I'm Son Goku now!! Get the heck off my planet!!" to Raditz carry that much more weight.

And also there's the part where we actually get to know characters like Bulma and Master Roshi and Krillin and Tien and Yamcha, before they're placed aside in favour of folks like Vegeta and Gohan. Not to mention the complex relationship and backstory Piccolo has!

Yes! The biggest missed opportunity, I think, by skipping the first six story arcs, is that the horrible shit that happens in the seventh story arc carries a tiny fraction of the weight it does in comparison to when the story is consumed in the created order.

Which is why I was blown away by the fight with King Piccolo! Thanks to Cartoon Network screwing with the airing here in NZ, the story ended at the last episode of the 22nd WMAT, so I never saw the Piccolo stuff until a mid-20s revisit. The stuff where Goku loses the use of almost all of his limbs is brutal, and the destruction of Central City, feels like a Z fight, and oddly reminiscent of Gohan battling Cell now that I think about it. The explosion of Central City, particularly with the anime in the cutaway to Suno in the hospital, also feels very much like a reflection of the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, something which would have been fresher in the minds of the Japanese when the manga and anime were being written in the late 80s.

As a disconnected dub fan of DB and Kai who is used to the western names and voices, I am trying to fit in with this place, and to appreciate the original work more than the usual dub fan would. The podcast and the site as a whole has definitely helped with that, as it's been so incredibly informative for many facets like authorial intent, Toriyama's inspirations, the names, and stuff like that. My favourite episodes are the ones that seek to dissect and discover things in the original work, as I find it far more interesting because it adds a lot of depth and intrigue to the work as a whole, compared to the relatively face-value feel of the 90s dubs.

I can relate to an extent. I started as a dub fan myself (pulled in by Toonami, but before Season 3). Not long after joining here in 2010, I became accustomed to the Japanese cast and nomenclature as I started following Japanese Kai streams on a whim. Around the same time, I discovered TFS' Abridged series, and was introduced to Cha La for the first time. Everything came to a head after I ordered the first FUNi Dragon Box. One night, I got high, and decided I was going to watch Dragon Ball Z in Japanese. I went through with it, and haven't fully looked back since. The material seemed exotic again, and the experience felt truly authentic for the first time. I went down the rabbit hole, and it paid off. In hind sight, I guess I've always been enamored by how mysteriously full of details-I-didn't-know it was, and that fueled my intense curiosity.

That's pretty reassuring. I can't really watch shows with subtitles on because I find the subtitles to be distracting and pulling my attention away from the actual footage, but that's a me thing and it also applies to anything in English, be it an anime, movie or video game. Coupled with the fact that I'll probably never learn another language, and I don't think I'll be familiar with the original raw product. Which is why I really appreciate authentic English translations that keep the intent of the author. But, due to my dub upbringing, I use a lot of the Western names out of habit and preference.

I honestly, as a former dub fan, don't understand hardcore dubfans who have this bizarre aversion to going down the rabbit hole, despite a consistently purported and/or demonstrated 'passion' for the series. It feels half-assed. It feels inconsistent. It almost feels insincere.

I agree, it ignores the creation and influences of both the anime and the manga; without that rabbit hole knowledge, you don't get to learn why, for example, there is so much filler in the Namek arc, or why the villain of the Android arc seems to change every five episodes. Maybe they just want to stick to the first "link" in the chain; I can imagine there are Pokemon fans who don't play the games, for example.

Point of this rant being, don't feel like because of your entry-point, you're inherently unwelcome here. Strictly speaking, no viewpoint is unwelcome around here. It's all about how you justify and articulate that viewpoint. So technically, there's nothing taboo, restricted, banned, or off limits about dub preference. The issue comes only when said preference is paired with and propped up by long-countered defenses.

I guess it's because I haven't been around here long enough for people to know me well, but I'd never insult somebody else for holding one version of the show over the other(s), dub or original. That isn't really productive for anyone, and we get the best conversations when people understand and accept that everyone has a particular version of the show that they not only like, but hold dear. That's something that's true for both camps, hence the heated arguments between them.

An example: I'm now a shameless, fully-committed sub fan. I'll rep Kikuchi as the sole most worthy, fitting, appropriate, and definitive composer for the entire franchise. However, I can see why someone might enjoy Faulconer. The timbres he uses on his more memorable tracks evoke within me memories of the Sega Genesis soundfont, and the compositions in particular remind me of Vectorman. Either way, I enjoy it, even if it's as something besides something I'd want to hear alongside Dragon Ball.

I have quite a warped sense of the music, lemme tell ya. With Dragon Ball it's Kikuche all the way, he's very suited to the more whimsical and free-spirited air of the Kid Goku arcs (and while it isn't his fault, the incessant use of the Piccolo music cues gets very grating in the final two arcs). With DBZ Kai, I initially watched it via y'arr piracy before grabbing the DVDs, and it was Yamamoto up until the last two episodes of the Frieza arc, so for that stuff I'm used to the more bombastic stylings of Kenji's "adaptations". Then, the Android and Cell arcs were the Kikuche replacement score, and that's what I expect when I watch that part of the story; when I watch my Kikiche-Kai DVDs, I feel like asking "Who put these Cell tracks in the Raditz arc?!", as insane as that sounds. And if that wasn't weird enough, while I haven't watched all of The Final Chapters (I'm waiting for a Season Set to come out), I'm associating Sumitomo's score for that part of the story!

I'm not familiar with Falcouner's music at all, outside of the recap/credits theme, the "Find out next time on Dragon Ball Z!" music, and this one music cue I can't find that's basically two notes being played over and over, usually for tense scenes where everyone's standing around gritting their teeth. Having found it on Spotify recently, I also have a soft spot for Brian Griffith's theme for the original 95 DB dub, but find the rest too electronic and synthy for something like Dragon Ball. I also really enjoyed Akihito Tokunaga's score for at least the opening scenes with Goku and Bulma in The Path to Power; the more traditional instruments go well with the traditional Chinese feel of the story at that point, and the use of the flute theme is soothing and reflects the humble beginnings of Goku's adventures, and his friendships.

[Kunzait_83]

I guess I'm going to be the odd one out and say Dragon Ball needed Funimation. Not because I'm in awe of the business wit of Gen Fukunaga or Barry Watson, but I'm just not sure someone else would've been desperate enough to bother. If you look at the other WSJ hits of the era, how many of them came to North America before Dragon Ball? Fist of the North Star, Saint Seiya, Ultimate Muscle, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, Slam Dunk, Yu Yu Hakusho, and Rurouni Kenshin all came after Dragon Ball was on TV. Thinking about it, how many really long anime series came over during the mid-90s? There was Ranma, but that was a Shogakukan property distributed by a Shogakukan subsidiary (Shueisha didn't co-own Viz until 2002). Sailor Moon, which was younger, and could easily be marketed as "Power Rangers for girls, but animated, so it has less realistic violence!" and Pokemon, which was younger and part of a massive coordinated marketing push across almost all retail categories.

Toriyama's works already had a stench of failure in the English world. Harmony Gold tried selling Dr. Slump and Dragon Ball to no success. Saban attempted a dub of a Dragon Quest anime, which was also unsuccessful. I'm just not convinced someone else would've given Dragon Ball another shot. Would Pioneer or Bandai Entertainment want to touch a decade-old multi-hundred episode beast like Dragon Ball? Would Toei have given the keys to the Lexus to some dude's nephew if they felt a more qualified partner could happen? I don't think so.

1) Fist of the North Star, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, Yu Yu Hakusho, and Kenshin had all had relatively high profile licensed North American releases in the United States well long before Dragon Ball ever did. Not on kids TV obviously, but kids TV was certainly never the barometer for success with North American anime at that time, as most North American anime back then didn't even aim to be on children's TV in the first place. That was never considered "the big time" until the Toonami era hit. Hell, Fist of the North Star has to date NEVER reared its exploding head on kids TV of any sort, ever (for obvious reasons, granted).

The Dragon Quest anime failed because A) it was aired in an obscure hour of the morning when everyone was still sound asleep, just like the original Saban/Ocean stab at DBZ, B) it had absolutely NO marketing push behind it whatsoever: it was kinda just unceremoniously dumped onto TV at 5:00 in the morning on weekends without any fanfare whatsoever, and C) it wasn't really that good of an anime to start with and only had any marginal interest among diehard fans of the games. That I even remember that it ever existed in the first place mystifies even myself, its such an apocryphal nothing of an anime. To say that its failure is indicative of anything DB related purely due to a tangential Toriyama link is highly dubious at best.

2) Ranma was in the process at that point of ushering in an era where long-running TV anime could have more of a presence on the direct to video market (where standalone films and short OVA series had long normally reigned), if it was marketed well enough and already had a high enough level of awareness and cult hype amongst the fansubbing community. Dragon Ball could've more than easily have followed in its footsteps with someone like Pioneer giving it the same kind of push that Viz did its properties at that point in time.

3) Pioneer DID "want to touch it", because they were in the process of securing a deal for it before Fukanaga swept it up from under them (their doing the video distribution and having a hand in the dubbing for the movies was their consolation prize). DB was one of the holy grail titles of every other anime licensing company in the industry at that time for many years, many of whom spent the bulk of the early 90s squabbling amongst one another trying to secure it.

What people on this forum don't understand, and have never understood, is that television airings for the vast majority of the 80s and 90s before Cartoon Network was rarely to never the U.S. anime industry's focus. The major licensors most often catered to a video-centric market, and tape sales and awareness among fansubbers were FAR more crucial than what a bunch of 3rd graders were watching on Saturday mornings on Fox Kids. They weren't chasing after a child audience in the first place, the primary audience for anime in those days was most often adults ages 19 to 30-something usually. Comparing Dragon Ball's level of success with other Shonen Jump properties is inherently faulty logic because Shonen in and of itself WASN'T a key draw among anime fans of that era because most anime fans in that era who were being targeted weren't generally kids to begin with.

As the key audience skewed older, it was more often usually Seinen works that were they principal focus of most licensing, with various scraps of Shonen as the outliers. To give you an idea of how much of an "it" factor Dragon Ball had, it was still WILDLY popular among both hardcore fansubbers and general anime fans alike during those years, even without any official dub of any kind and in spite of the overall fanbase and market fixating heavily on Seinen works.

The problem with all these discussions is that the mainstream anime fanbase and Dragon Ball fanbase of the early 2000s to now has always had an extremely myopic view of the history of North American anime fandom and licensing in the United States, viewing everything before Toonami as either fully non-existent or only a handful of relatively obscure Syndicated properties and only post-Toonami consisting of anything which "matters", and this is due entirely to a more broader myopic view of ALL media through a lens of media that's aimed squarely at children with a gigantic blind spot towards adult-centric realms of media focus.

Cartoon Network radically changed the very nature of how anime licensing in North America worked, but the present fanbase of the past 17 years is only aware of and only concerned with how things have functioned and are viewed in the industry during and past the years after that change, and retroactively applies that post-Toonami mindset to the years previous to the Cartoon Network boom. Which is utterly nonsensical.

This is to say: anime in North America before 1999/2000 was heavily geared towards adult audiences on home video (and on some premium cable channels), and stuff like Ranma, DBZ, etc. were wildcards that succeeded with that audience DESPITE being Shonen rather than because. Shonen overall wasn't the general focus, so viewing DB's appeal among early 90s anime fans through a Shonen/Kids media-intensive lens is completely off base and inapplicable to what the whole industry/fanbase was like back then.

No one back then cared what was on TV and what wasn't, nevermind if it was on a kids' channel of some kind, and no one cared which Shonen magazine something was published in. Anime as a whole in the early 90s was seen and marketed as an alternative AGAINST children's animation as a whole, with something like DB sneaking its way in on unique merits of its own that were completely divorced from its status as a Shonen/kids series.

FUNimation and moreover Cartoon Network (the latter of whom I would say is of greatly more importance here) were instrumental in DB becoming a hit on North America among its original intended target audience of elementary school children in the broad mainstream: but to say that it wouldn't have found ANY audience here at all without that is demonstrative of COMPLETE ignorance of the very existence and nature of what the anime industry and fanbase was in the years before CN brought massive waves little kids into the mix.

The problem with these discussions is that this community continually treats children's media and children's media outlets as if it was the end all be all of Dragon Ball's notoriety in the U.S. throughout its entire history, and more over that it very often treats children's media and children's media outlets as if its the end all be all of all creative works that ever was, ever will be, and ever will matter.

Nearly everyone in this community has been so single-mindedly locked onto this narrative of "Dragon Ball HAS to be a mega smash among 8 year old boys on a major broadcast children's cartoon programming block because that's how it got big back in the day, and moreover because that's how I was first exposed to it, therefore its the only way that ANYONE will ever be exposed to it and its the only way that it'll remain validated in my/other people's eyes". It instills this mentality that the ONLY corner of media that is of any relevance, both to Dragon Ball and sometimes it seems even in general, is that of children's action cartoon blocks ala that of Toonami, Jetix, Disney XE, Fox Kids, etc. (and that's just with regards to how it was in the 90s, setting completely aside the fact that broadcast television is in itself a dying, if not dead, and outdated model of media consumption in today's present world of digital streaming anyways).

This shit isn't now, and never has been all there ever is or will be to either something like Dragon Ball or to creative/fiction-based media as a whole. Dragon Ball subsisted, even in North America, well long before Cartoon Network and outlets like it, and will (and indeed has) endure and hang around well long after.

[8000 Saiyan]

Sean Schemmel's Gokū voice just got too deeper in Both Kai 1.0 and TFC and same for Kyle Herbert's Gohan which was again too deep in TFC and by no means a 16 year old kid can sound that deep and at times he overacted a lot, I find Brad Swaile's Gohan to be more fitting than Kyle's.
I personally think FUNimation Dubs of Dragon Ball are very very very very Overrated, there are like tons and tons of Anime Dubs which are better acted than it still they get overlooked.

I don't find Hebert's Gohan voice that deep. Like I told Nitro, there are a lot of people that sound older than their age. You should know that.

I don't think so. The dubs that have better voice acting than Funimation's dubs are not overlooked.