Cell arc - Does the mystery work well?

[ekrolo2]

It's not vague tampering. Trunks did in fact tamper with the timeline in very specific ways.

You misunderstood me, Trunks tampering is an example of good cause and effect. Cell burying his ass underground somehow giving Gero knowledge (but not really) that Goku is SS tier now to amp all the Androids up and to build never before seen ones is total, absolute bullshit.

I'm going to say it one more time - that's not the only mystery. It's through the entire 1/3 of the arc. Whether you think it's a cop out isn't relevant, it's there. It's a mystery, as in, we don't know the answers. So be unsatisfied all you want with the answer, but it is a mystery.

Saying there's a "mystery" through the first third at all is a stretch to say the least. First, 19 and 20 are the Androids to fight and that's who we're expecting until suddenly Trunks acts like 17 and 18 are the one's who he's always been fighting. If Toriyama switched around the numbering so Gero and fatso were this time line's version of 17 and 18 while the actual 17 and 18 were 19 and 20, that would've been a clever way to keep his retconing from jabbing you in the eye. Then a boring series of fights happen, Trunks spouts some BS about butterfly effect then Cell shows up and five minutes later, he explains everything. Except how Goku's dying later or why 19, 20 and 16 exist and all that other stuff,... If you wanted to stretch this into being a mystery, feel free but it all feels like a jumbled mess of a story trying and failing to cover it's failing. It's especially glaring when Super ACTUALLY did a mystery well that felt like an organic story coming together and not just a hodge podge of messes trying to out mess each other.

This complaint comes off as VERY arbitrary. He gains power by absorbing people, but he needs the cyborgs to gain FAR more power and reach his final form. It works well because it makes the cyborgs relevant beyond being just another antagonist. It might be an unusual choice, but it's an interesting choice. It makes WAY more sense than Buu's transformations.

Nah, Cell's transformations are the only one's that aren't shite in the original material. Freeza being able to turn on a dime is a massive problem that Mistare Fusion perfectly articulates in his videos more then I ever could and Boo makes absolutely no sense.

I never had a problem following the logic. Cell's just from further into the future, but I'll give you that yours is a tad simpler, but the way it's done in DB isn't a mess, it's just one more step. The Terminator might be simpler, but the logic of it doesn't hold up. It still leads to a paradox.

It is a mess. First there is a future timeline then a past time line made by Trunks going into the past, it's nice and simple and it solves a Terminator-esque paradox problem. Then when Cell comes into play, there are two new time lines, a future one and a past one that come from.... fucking nowhere. The main time line exists because of Future Trunks, so why are there two Future Trunks time lines that seemingly co-exist with one another?

The only explanation that I've seen is that Cells time line is the original one, his Trunks made the unseen time line then Cell made another past time line (which is the main one) and another Future Trunks spin off time line came from that. Do you see how unnecessarily stupid this is? This have Cell wake up as a bug just ahead of Future Trunks' arrival back into the main time line! Time travel inherently causing issues doesn't excuse Dragon Ball choosing to make them x10000 times worse.

On the things that have changed, the only major thing that changed to me is that 17 and 18 got a lot stronger. I always figured that because the Z Fighters trained in anticipation of the Androids, Dr. Gero made them stronger to keep up. It's similar to the Back to the Future Almanac; even if Biff's betting changed the results of sports matches because it made headline news, because Old Biff took it from after most of those matches, the ripple effect would ensure the Almanac was still accurate. The only problem with my theory on the Androids is that Gero states (in Kai at least) that he stopped gathering data on Goku after his fight with Vegeta. Then again, he also gathered data on Frieza and King Cold, so...

As for Trunks not knowing who 19 and 20 were, to me the explanation is very simple. In the original timeline, Trunks was 1 at that age. In my head, the events go like this: 19 and 20 blow up the island city, and the Z Fighters investigate while Bulma stays at West City. They defeat 19, forcing Dr. Gero to activate 17 and 18, who kills Gero. 17 and 18 then kill all of the Z Fighters except Gohan, who stayed behind at Chi-Chi's Mount Paoz residence. Because Piccolo died, Kami does too, meaning that nobody is even able to tell anybody about 19 and 20, which leaves Future Trunks in the dark about what even happened later. Ego he isn't able to tell Alternate Goku about them when he goes back in time.

Trunks know who 19 and 20 are, they are his intended enemies in the manga before Toriyama pretty blatantly retcons it into being 17 and 18. The anime just makes it always out into being 17 and 18 hence why most people aren't aware of this.

Also, Gero doesn't know about any improvements anyone makes after the Saiyan arc in any version of the narrative. Hence why Cell burying his ass underground somehow creating new Androids and amping up existing one is a moronic as an explanation to me.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Not really. All the "mystery" of the Android/Cell arc could have easily resolved if Future Trunks could have just explained what the Androids looked like. I'm sure that could have made life a lot easier. I'll never understand why that detail was left vague. And it doesn't help that Cell's arrival is very much out of left field.

You really have to turn your brave off to enjoy that arc I swear new issues just pop up all the time, Goku must have defeated Freeza on Earth on his timeline so why did Trunks "risk" like he said intervening, is another thing I never got. I hate to use this word but honestly feels like Toriyama was "phoning" it in.

Trunks was a first-time time traveler and wasn't even there for Frieza's defeat in his Timeline, not to mention he had no idea Goku had Instant Transmission. From what he could tell, Goku was still three hours away and Frieza had already touched down, so from his perspective there was no way Goku would have been able to make it in time.

The thing is Freeza must have been defeated in his timeline though? Why interfere Trunks obviously knew someone defeated Freeza in his TL (otherwise he wouldn't have been born) and so he should have just waited and let things play out.

[ABED]

You make WAY too much out of the 19 and 20 issue. And if you want to keep missing that there are numerous questions asked between trunks' first appearance and Cell's that's your right, but they exist. And how the hell would Trunks know why the virus affected Goku later, he just found out that things are different. It isn't a stretch to say it is a mystery. You might not be satisfied with the answers, but it occurred over a third of the arc.

First there is a future timeline

Not a mess. Every time someone time travels, it creates a new timeline. It's your explanation that's confusing.

The anime just makes it always out into being 17 and 18 hence why most people aren't aware of this.

Agreed, which is why I have such a hard time understanding why you are making such a big deal about this. Even knowing that fact, it's a simple number change. I doubt that even if he hadn't changed the numbers, he wouldn't have gone down a similar path. It's pretty early in the story for Goku to fight the big bad(s), don't you think? There had to be a twist coming.

Hence why Cell burying his ass underground somehow creating new Androids and amping up existing one is a moronic as an explanation to me.

Technically 16 would not be a new creation, he simply wouldn't have been activated in Trunks' timeline.

Cell burying his ass underground somehow giving Gero knowledge (but not really) that Goku is SS tier now to amp all the Androids up and to build never before seen ones is total, absolute bullshit.

But you have no issue with them being as strong as they were in Trunks' timeline?

[KBABZ]

You really have to turn your brave off to enjoy that arc I swear new issues just pop up all the time, Goku must have defeated Freeza on Earth on his timeline so why did Trunks "risk" like he said intervening, is another thing I never got. I hate to use this word but honestly feels like Toriyama was "phoning" it in.

Trunks was a first-time time traveler and wasn't even there for Frieza's defeat in his Timeline, not to mention he had no idea Goku had Instant Transmission. From what he could tell, Goku was still three hours away and Frieza had already touched down, so from his perspective there was no way Goku would have been able to make it in time.

The thing is Freeza must have been defeated in his timeline though? Why interfere Trunks obviously knew someone defeated Freeza in his TL (otherwise he wouldn't have been born) and so he should have just waited and let things play out.

As I said earlier, Trunks was a rookie time traveler at that point, and for me it's understandable for him to step in when the math just plain didn't work for him. Had he known about Goku's Instant Transmission, he would have most certainly kept away and intercepted Goku at some other point. Not knowing that however, Goku being three hours away gives Frieza more than enough time to eradicate all life on Earth, which was too much for Trunks' sense of justice to bear, so he stepped in. Trunks is also upset at himself for doing that, so I feel the story more than goes out of its way to explain this particular point.

---

19 and 20 being mentioned early feels like a plothole in general, and I'm surprised that it wasn't corrected in later releases like Battle Power math has been, particularly since the anime went out of its way to fix it.

[ekrolo2]

Not a mess. Every time someone time travels, it creates a new timeline. It's your explanation that's confusing.

Yes, and a time line has to be created from something. Future Trunks' time line is the first one and he makes the main time line by going to the past. Where the hell do the other 2 come from? Because the way it's presented in the series, there are two future and two past time lines because reasons. There's literally no reason with the rules set up for two Future Trunks' to exist but there are and it doesn't make any sense unless you explain it with a roundabout convoluted manner.

But you have no issue with them being as strong as they were in Trunks' timeline?

I do take issue with 17, 18 and 16 being as strong as they are. Gero isn't even aware you can become as strong as a Super Saiyan but he just happens to design people who can beat up people in the SS & Freeza tier? 19 and 20 had a good work around for this with being energy gobblers as does Cell by being a Frankensteins monster of everyone's DNA.

[ABED]

It might be easier if you could bullet point what the timelines are because I'm having trouble following your point.

[ekrolo2]

Okay, here's how the time lines are presented, I will categorize them as such: Future Trunks (A), Main TL (B), Cells (C), Unseen TL (D).

(A) is the seeming starting point of everything and when Bulma created a time machine here, she sent her son Trunks back into the past. By significantly tampering with events IE killing Freeza & Cold instead of Goku then giving the man in-question destined to die a cure for his incoming disease, the main time line (B) was created. This sets the precedent that time lines are only created by time travel IE there is NOT a collection of multiple time lines that exist already and you're just traveling between them (Super retcons some stuff here but lets not compound the issue).

Then Cell shows up and he says he's from the future, however, this is not the (A) time line but a completely other identical one to be that just exists because.... reasons. Apparently, the Trunks of timeline (C) created a whole nother past one, the unseen time line (D) where he shut down the Androids. Cell kills him and travels into another past, seemingly becoming the creator of the (B) time line since he arrives before Trunks does, making his time line (C) the original, not the one our Future Trunks comes from (A).

This seems like a fairly reasonable thing to assume before you remember the Cell would hatch in the span of about 4 years, meaning there is simply no way for any version of Future Trunks' time line to happen in timeline B for a Future Trunks to time travel to the past. Cell would simply attain perfection and kill everyone yet the narrative assumes a Future Trunks apocalyptic future will happen anyway. Which means we've got TWO Future Trunks time lines that co-exist for no reason at all despite the fact the series says time lines can only be created by going back into the past, they aren't some kind of pre-existing multiverse.

This is why the time travel is needlessly convoluted in the series.

[GreatSaiyaJeff]

I enjoyed the mystery, heck they did a good job hinting at Cell when 17 was wonder why him and 18 were the only ones that were cyborgs and the others weren't. Unfortunately I wish the mystery kept going on longer but Cell had to monologue the entire plan. Which unfortunately killed any mystery left with the character. Oh well still a good arc.

[Paulo Gabriel]

Not really. All the "mystery" of the Android/Cell arc could have easily resolved if Future Trunks could have just explained what the Androids looked like. I'm sure that could have made life a lot easier. I'll never understand why that detail was left vague. And it doesn't help that Cell's arrival is very much out of left field.

That reminds me of the filler segments involving the ''Androids'', who are portrayed as some kind of heinous monsters instead of cyborgs lol. That means Toei had no idea of what they looked like, which could mean that at that point not even Toriyama did.

[lancerman]

No cause you can tell from understanding simple story structure that the mystery was not planned or carefully laid out whatsoever. There's no reason Trunks coming back in time should change Gero's plans all that much. Even if you subscribe to butterfly theory in the original timeline Freeza comes to earth and Goko IT's there defeat him and King Cold and save the planet. But we know because of the the first encounter with the Androids that Gero stopped spying on Goku and his friends when they left for Namek. So theoretically nothing at all that happened in the current timeline should have that significant of an effect on Gero.

Hell aside from it being 19 and 20, the exact same events Trunks describes happen. Two Androids show up in the city on that specific day. The fact that they aren't the real Android's comes off as a needless contrivance to set up a new bad guy reveal. Now the bigger thing is that because of the varying timelines, we know that Cell has nothing to do with any reason why 19 and 20 were there that day instead of 17 and 18. Cell shows up in every timeline. So he is a constant according to the manga's narrative.

There isn't a hint of Cell until right before Piccolo gets the power up he needs to actually face him, then every other bit of a mystery to Cell is rushed out in a couple of chapters, and then Cell just reveals himself and pretty much tells you everything including who he is, what he is, where he came from, and why he's here. It's not a mystery in any traditional sense. It's build up via vagueness. Cell is so out of left field and contrary to everything else we know at that point that he could have had no relation to the Androids whatsoever and had the same impact.

[GreatSaiyaJeff]

No cause you can tell from understanding simple story structure that the mystery was not planned or carefully laid out whatsoever. There's no reason Trunks coming back in time should change Gero's plans all that much. Even if you subscribe to butterfly theory in the original timeline Freeza comes to earth and Goko IT's there defeat him and King Cold and save the planet. But we know because of the the first encounter with the Androids that Gero stopped spying on Goku and his friends when they left for Namek. So theoretically nothing at all that happened in the current timeline should have that significant of an effect on Gero.

Hell aside from it being 19 and 20, the exact same events Trunks describes happen. Two Androids show up in the city on that specific day. The fact that they aren't the real Android's comes off as a needless contrivance to set up a new bad guy reveal. Now the bigger thing is that because of the varying timelines, we know that Cell has nothing to do with any reason why 19 and 20 were there that day instead of 17 and 18. Cell shows up in every timeline. So he is a constant according to the manga's narrative.

There isn't a hint of Cell until right before Piccolo gets the power up he needs to actually face him, then every other bit of a mystery to Cell is rushed out in a couple of chapters, and then Cell just reveals himself and pretty much tells you everything including who he is, what he is, where he came from, and why he's here. It's not a mystery in any traditional sense. It's build up via vagueness. Cell is so out of left field and contrary to everything else we know at that point that he could have had no relation to the Androids whatsoever and had the same impact.

There was a vague hint at Cell before he showed up. Before 18 fought Vegeta, 17 asked 16 if he was a cyborg but he says no. So 17 is wondering why only him and 18 are cyborgs while Gero's other creations weren't.

[Super_Divine_Genki]

I have only the anime adaptation to go by.

I think that the mystery worked well enough. With F.Trunks, he told Goku that two cyborgs show up at a certain time and location and begin an attack. In the past of his timeline (when he was a baby), it was most likely the same Dr. Gero and #19 that initially attacked that would attack in the present timeline. Since F.Trunks was a baby at the time, he grew up to assume that the initial attacks had been by #17 and #18 without knowing of #19's existence and Gero's involvement in the attacks (though not explicitly stated). #19 and Gero were most likely both ridden of in a similar way (in F.Trunks timeline), before baby F.Trunks had developed any memories. It wasn't at the forefront of F.Trunks mind to describe the appearances of the attackers to Goku when an exact time and location should've sufficed (who else would attack that exact place at that exact time, consisting of two individuals?). When F.Trunks returned three years later, he began to note some differences that had occurred in the present timeline, which then was revealed that Cell also time-hopping may have created subtle changes. Not to mention that all of the Z-senshi were now alive and more powered-up to varying degree, which I suppose is why the cyborgs were more powered-up in the present timeline than their future counterparts.

Piccolo had feigned defeat and worked the info out of Cell throughout the episode. Perhaps every detail was a bit much to be revealed within one episode, but it doesn't kill the arc, or really even damage it, imo. Now, with Cell around and knowing why, to go along with the other three threats, an interesting scenario was created and the tension was elevated. The arc picked up steam and then found some semblance of rhythm. However, I do find it unintentionally funny that latter DB villains seemed to have a way of saying something like: "The only way that you can stop me is if...", and then proceed to achieve a particular goal anyway despite the protagonist(s) efforts. Anyway, even though the early narrative was allegedly written without a clear structure, the way the events played out and then the reveal of Cell "out of left field" gave it an element of unpredictability, although it may have been by happy accident that it was coherent enough.

As for the timeline(s) stuff, I don't put too much thought into it, because I feel that telling those kind of stories will always raise questions, so I'm not really bothered by it. I think that it was a bit of a bold move for Toriyama to attempt to tackle time travel in DB. The downside, however, is that an attempt at a more complex story didn't work for many, which seems to be why it's not a favorite for most.

The biggest mystery for me, is: Why/how did Gero's cyborgs/robots turn out to be that powerful? I could easily headcanon that bit, but there should have been something there to make it somewhat believable to sell to the viewer, following the SSJ Goku VS Freeza battle. That's the biggest hole in the arc, imo.

[ABED]

There isn't a hint of Cell until right before Piccolo gets the power up he needs to actually face him

There is. It's the air of mystery surrounding the early part of the arc. Whether you like the answers or not, there are a bunch of questions being posed.

No cause you can tell from understanding simple story structure

And what is simple story structure?

Hell aside from it being 19 and 20, the exact same events Trunks describes happen. Two Androids show up in the city on that specific day. The fact that they aren't the real Android's comes off as a needless contrivance to set up a new bad guy reveal. Now the bigger thing is that because of the varying timelines, we know that Cell has nothing to do with any reason why 19 and 20 were there that day instead of 17 and 18. Cell shows up in every timeline. So he is a constant according to the manga's narrative.

I don't agree with a single thing in this paragraph. I don't see how two different cyborgs showing up is a contrivance. Lots of time travel stories have a change made in the past that causes big differences in the future and seeing as how the cyborgs number into the teens, how is two more we didn't anticipate a contrivance. Yes, in about 20 years. Trunks doesn't know about him, so he didn't show up in Trunks' timeline until AFTER he went back.

Okay, I can't say this enough because apparently it's not getting through. While Cell divulging everything isn't the smartest idea from Toriyama, he's not introduced until a third of the way into the arc, so there are a lot of questions that are asked for about 20 episodes

It's not a mystery in any traditional sense. It's build up via vagueness. Cell is so out of left field and contrary to everything else we know at that point that he could have had no relation to the Androids whatsoever and had the same impact.

Sure, it's not traditional, but that doesn't make it bad. Everything else we know at that point isn't much. We know Trunks changed the past and caused events to be different than in his timeline. And no, he couldn't have had the same impact as it's all leading to him. He needs two of those cyborgs to reach his perfect form.

This is why the time travel is needlessly convoluted in the series.

Time travel is always convoluted.

[ekrolo2]

Time travel is always convoluted.

You say that like it's a fixed proportion but its not, DBs far more needlessly convoluted then the Back to the Future movies or the first two Terminator's.

[ABED]

You say that like it's a fixed proportion but its not, DBs far more needlessly convoluted then the Back to the Future movies or the first two Terminator's.

You are comparing a film to TV show that has more moving parts and longer time to tell its story. It is always convoluted. Yes, Marty goes back in time once in the first film, but if he can cause himself to not exist, how could he exist in order to go back to stop his own existence? How does he have memories of the old timeline? There are million questions you can ask if you stop to think about it.

[lancerman]

You say that like it's a fixed proportion but its not, DBs far more needlessly convoluted then the Back to the Future movies or the first two Terminator's.

You are comparing a film to TV show that has more moving parts and longer time to tell its story. It is always convoluted. Yes, Marty goes back in time once in the first film, but if he can cause himself to not exist, how could he exist in order to go back to stop his own existence? How does he have memories of the old timeline? There are million questions you can ask if you stop to think about it.

It's not always convoluted. I've read/watched plenty of stories where time travel occurred and within the rules of the story it was all handled neatly an didn't pose any plot contrivance. The Android arc featured a boy coming back to change the past (only later we find out he went through all this trouble knowing it didn't impact his own reality in the first place, so he actively decided to create an alternate timeline for reasons), to warn his predecessors of a threat and is specifically right about every detail of the threat down to the day they show up, how many, and what they are (except midway through we find out that for no discernible reason besides "time travel" changed things that despite everything else about the scenario being as he described it, the two androids were actually not the specific two he meant), then for no reason besides "time travel changed things" Goku's heart condition occurs much later (which in reality only serves to conveniently take Goku out of the plot at an opportune moment).

There's far too many moments in the arc where the logic falls apart and we get a sloppy explanation of "the timeline was messed up because Trunks went back in time" and we are supposed to accept some butterfly effect bs. Back to the Future had timelines being changed. The difference is it showed how specifically one thing effected another until it created a big change. There was a movie called the Butterfly Effect that included many different timelines that were radically different. It had far more moving pieces than Dragon Ball. It still made sense and showed why things happened. The first Terminator was a paradox but it was a closed loop paradox that was easily understandable.

In Dragon Ball we are meant to believe that because Trunks traveled back in time

-Gero who admitted to not watching anything after Namek decided to alter his attack to be 19 and 20 instead of 17 and 18.
-17 and 18 are far less evil than their counterparts
-A disease Goku had occurs later

[ABED]

The closed loop thing is pure BS that doesn't make any sense when you think about it. Reese can't always have been his father.
The different timelines also don't make sense because how can Marty and Doc remember it all? They never explain this.

Face it, there are ALWAYS issues with time travel. I like time travel in The Flash. Barry will make one change and there will be huge ramifications that he can't anticipate, including the death of his best friend's brother and another friend's powers begin to manifest. He can't just go back and change things to make it better because no matter what you do, time travel is not a magical cure all. I don't know why anyone has an issue with this but has zero issue with time travel as a concept. If Toriyama's rules of time travel say that it causes big changes going forwards, then it does. It's all fictional. "No discernible reason besides time travel"? Time travel is the reason!

It's not always convoluted. I've read/watched plenty of stories where time travel occurred and within the rules of the story it was all handled neatly an didn't pose any plot contrivance.

Such as?

-A disease Goku had occurs later

Why does anyone have a problem with this? It's a disease that isn't given a name. We don't know anything specific about it, including how it is contracted or how it works, and yet somehow you all find it to be some huge logical issue that it occurs later. This is such a silly complaint. So what if it serves a storytelling function of taking Goku out of the fight? It makes things harder for the heroes, not easier. It's not convenient, which is what you want for your protagonists - to make it as hard for them as possible.

And I find it so annoying when people say "because reasons".

[lancerman]

The closed loop thing is pure BS that doesn't make any sense when you think about it. Reese can't always have been his father.
The different timelines also don't make sense because how can Marty and Doc remember it all? They never explain this.

Face it, there are ALWAYS issues with time travel. I like time travel in The Flash. Barry will make one change and there will be huge ramifications that he can't anticipate, including the death of his best friend's brother and another friend's powers begin to manifest. He can't just go back and change things to make it better because no matter what you do, time travel is not a magical cure all. I don't know why anyone has an issue with this but has zero issue with time travel as a concept. If Toriyama's rules of time travel say that it causes big changes going forwards, then it does. It's all fictional. "No discernible reason besides time travel"? Time travel is the reason!

It's not always convoluted. I've read/watched plenty of stories where time travel occurred and within the rules of the story it was all handled neatly an didn't pose any plot contrivance.

Such as?

-A disease Goku had occurs later

Why does anyone have a problem with this? It's a disease that isn't given a name. We don't know anything specific about it, including how it is contracted or how it works, and yet somehow you all find it to be some huge logical issue that it occurs later. This is such a silly complaint. So what if it serves a storytelling function of taking Goku out of the fight? It makes things harder for the heroes, not easier. It's not convenient, which is what you want for your protagonists - to make it as hard for them as possible.

And I find it so annoying when people say "because reasons".

No closed loop theory is actually a pretty well established idea based on the premise that time is fixed and that if someone goes back in time they were always destined to go back in time and the timeline always reflects that. Happens in Terminator and the third Harry Potter book. It's a valid theory as long as you play by the rules that were established.

You're ignoring the rules to make up problems. In the first Terminator, Reese always was John's father. Time is just a closed loop and Reese was always going to come back. It's a paradox based on the idea that no matter what happens, Reese comes back and father's John and the Terminator arm gets discovered by Skynet. There's nothing to think about. There isn't a timeline where Reese doesn't go back and save John. It's just always destined that timetravel will inform the future.

Back to the Future is the same thing in the sense that Marty and Doc actually went through the experience of going through different timelines. Once they time traveled, they became anomalies.They had the experience of going back and changing time and seeing how it changed the future. Everyone else didn't and was still in their own respective timeline when the changes occured so they just grew up under those circumstances. For Marty and Doc it all happened in a couple of hours cause they were the one's responsible, so they remembered it.

There aren't always issues with time travel. Both those instances make sense within their own logic. Dragon Ball's story was inconsistent and the inconsistencies were wiped away as "the timeline changed". You can do that, but better works actually tell you why the timeline changed. Dragon Ball just uses it as a retcon machine to fix story changes.

I don't know why you bend over backwards defending the arc. It is lazy and it's explanation aren't explanations they are excuses. A tight story would have had an explanation like "Gero's robot spies did in fact still follow Goku, they heard everything Trunks said, Gero panicked knowing that the heroes were anticipating him, hastily finished 17 and 18 giving them personality issues, and created 19 and 20 to absorb their energy as a trap before they fought the real threat and also seeing two SSJ's made him decide to start his Cell project because now he feared that 17 and 18 might struggle against SSJ's and he wasn't going fail even if he needed to wait 20 years after his death to ensure his victory. That would work if you laid the story out like that. But it clearly wasn't like that. Based off what we know, actually Cell existed well before Trunks got there, Gero didn't follow the heroes when they went to Namek, nothing about Trunks coming back should have ever gotten back to Gero (we know this because he didn't know that they were aware of him), so nothing should have effected his work on 17 and 18 and the existence of 19 and 20 is still a mystery. It's just ooooohhhh time travel changed things because.... reasons.

People have a problem with the virus because if nothing else the virus isn't a human that had motives that could change based off different timelines. There is absolutely no discernible reason why a virus would attack so much later than it actually did because of someone traveling time.

Again time travel changing things isn't an explanation. In better works, their is a real explanation of why the time travel effected it. Time travel here is used as a plot fixer that doesn't make sense. Other works don't do that without explaining what exactly changed.

[ABED]

Closed loop is established but it's a dumb theory. It's not a valid theory as it makes no logical sense.

I'm not ignoring any rules, I'm saying the closed loop theory is pure bullshit. I get the idea, but it's dumb. I don't know why you defend such a theory that anyone should be able to see that is on its face really stupid and illogical.

Both those instances make sense within their own logic.

Okay, so the closed loop theory makes so much sense, but time travel having huge unintended consequences doesn't make sense to you?

People have a problem with the virus because if nothing else the virus isn't a human that had motives that could change based off different timelines. There is absolutely no discernible reason why a virus would attack so much later than it actually did because of someone traveling time.

It doesn't need motives. People don't have problems with it because there are genuine issues with it. They are simply looking for other reasons to hate the arc. It's a FICTIONAL virus. It can work however Toriyama says. Perhaps Goku contracted it later. Or maybe something he did in the three years caused him to remain asymptomatic longer. But apparently this doesn't make sense "within its own logic" because, as you say, reasons.

Again time travel changing things isn't an explanation.

Because you say so? It's a fictional concept. It works however you want. If you want a dumb closed loop theory, then fine. If you want a paradoxical story where you can cause yourself to not exist like in Looper, fine. Why time travel itself is not a reason is pretty arbitrary. Time travel was never used as a fixer in DB. It caused as many problems as it solved. And you keep saying the best time travel stories explain the change, but that's not always true. Flashpoint doesn't explain why Barry saving his mother caused almost everything in that story, but it was still a great story because it wasn't about that. It was a fun but dark story where everything goes to shit and Barry learns a lesson the hard way that you can't live in the past, you have to move forward. I like in the Cell arc that time travel isn't a magical cure all. The cyborgs are bad in Trunks time, but ultimately his change results in something much worse - Cell. The trick in time travel stories is not to get super caught up in the rules. There's always going to be problems. I'm including the friggin' dumb closed loop theory. What's more important than the expositional parts about how exactly it works is what it does to the characters.

[Kinokima]

I am rewatching the Cell arc now and there is absolutely no mystery. The show basically tells you everything so where is the mystery?

That's not a criticism but in structure Cell is much closer to a suspense than a mystery.


Mystery is where you watch the characters trying to solve something. Both the audience and the characters don't know the answer to the mystery until the end of the story.

With suspense the audience may know things the characters do not or in the case of the Cell arc the characters do have the information but are powerless to stop the bad things happening (a lot of people say it was because of bad decisions and there is definitely some of that but there was also a lot of bad luck and bad timing). "Suspense is the waiting for something to happen" - Hitchcock


So no I don't think Cell is a good mystery at all but it works very well as a Suspense as we watch the characters first unable to stop the Androids and then unable to stop Cell powering up. Despite their knowledge there is a growing sense of uncertainty, dread but also excitement.