Dragon Ball (Anime & Manga): A Personal Assessment

[Lord Beerus]

Given that the only person who has a problem with this is you in all the time I've spent around the fandom, I'd say that no one else had a problem emotionally investing and didn't stop to wonder why. Everyone seems fine with it.

This fandom is huge. No amount of online forums or comment sections could come close to even representing even a fraction of the people who follow Dragon Ball. And that's not even taking into consideration much (unfortunately) lesser known or watched the first Dragon Ball anime is compared to Z in the West. I highly doubt I'm the only person who has a problem with this.

And do you think I'm arguing that every second of every episode has to be about Goku?

I'm just saying that Dragon Ball can tell just as good stories even when Goku isn't a primary focus. I don't know why that's so hard to comprehend.

It's not there as his full revenge isn't realized. We just met Tenshinhan, so why put him of all characters as the protagonist? We barely know Chaozu, so there is much less emotional investment in seeing Tenshinhan get revenge for his death. Goku getting one up by defeating Piccolo at the tournament isn't nearly as satisfying if Piccolo's rivalry would be with Tenshinhan. Another thing you are forgetting is that since in your scenario, Goku would've already been dead once, so he couldn't be wished back in the Saiyan arc. Chaozu's death was dramatic in the Saiyan arc because we knew the characters better and the audience believes his death is permanent.

I don't see why it can't work for Tien, or a combination of other characters, to have a central role and tackle the main villain. And you can still have the rivalry of Goku and Piccolo, or better yet, Piccolo just having a grudge against the entire cast.

And as far as Goku's death is considered, you could easily write a scenario where Kami convinces Enma Daiō to undo his death on this one occasion only after he's finished training with King Kai, because of the special circumstances of Goku needing to be alive for the Saiyan's arrival. I mean, Goku was already granted the extremely rare privilege of keeping his physical body after death, so going that extra mile wouldn't be really be overboard at all. I mean, Goku later in Majin Boo arc is brought back the life by Elder Kaioshin.

Look, I know we're not going to see eye-to-eye on this topic. And I accept that. I personally hate that moment in the story, because for me, it wrecks my suspension of disbelief. When you have a character die, and then come back to life with assistance or no explanation, it's very tough to just bat eyelid to it. Especially considering that scenario happens to a character who is vital to the plot at point. It just reeks of an excuse for said character to remain active in the plot, regardless of implausibilities of his survival. Can you imagine if GT or Super pulled a stunt like this? You'd never hear the end of it from fans. You may be fine with it, but I'm not.

[ekrolo2]

On the subject of Piccolo Daimao, I see him as a trend setter for future bad guys, he's the first of his kind and most if not all of DBs future bad guys very much follow in his footsteps to varying degrees. The problem with him is that he IS the first of his kind, meaning the series can and has done his shtick a lot better with following antagonists whether collectively or in individual elements so when you go back to Daimao, he feels like a shitty version of what comes later instead of the guy to sort of pave the way for his various successors.

It's kind of like the Killing Joke where we've gotten so many better stories about Batman/Jokers relationship that going back to it, it feels kind of...meh.

[ABED]

On the subject of Piccolo Daimao, I see him as a trend setter for future bad guys, he's the first of his kind and most if not all of DBs future bad guys very much follow in his footsteps to varying degrees. The problem with him is that he IS the first of his kind, meaning the series can and has done his shtick a lot better with following antagonists whether collectively or in individual elements so when you go back to Daimao, he feels like a shitty version of what comes later instead of the guy to sort of pave the way for his various successors.

It's kind of like the Killing Joke where we've gotten so many better stories about Batman/Jokers relationship that going back to it, it feels kind of...meh.

He's not a shitty version of anything. He's far more interesting than Cell or Buu.

I'm just saying that Dragon Ball can tell just as good stories even when Goku isn't a primary focus. I don't know why that's so hard to comprehend.

I never had any problem comprehending that point, but there's a huge difference between the A-story being on someone other than Goku and outright changing the main character. You aren't asking for them to have A central role, you are saying they should have THE central role... all because a heart restarts! Great stories can still be told without the main character of a story, but it's a bad idea to switch main characters. They build up what you could call "emotional equity", and you can't replicate that. Tenshinhan's revenge isn't as emotionally satisfying as Goku getting revenge for the death of his best friend and master. We know them and care about them. We've just met Tenshinhan and were just starting to get to know him.

And you can still have the rivalry of Goku and Piccolo, or better yet, Piccolo just having a grudge against the entire cast.

It won't mean as much because Goku wasn't the one who defeated him. Goku's grand victory isn't as resonant if he doesn't defeat his greatest rival to win the title.

And yet again, your armchair quarterbacking is far worse and commits the same sins you claim to be getting around. How is Kami convincing Enma Daio to undo his death any better than a heart restarting on its own? The CPR is a better idea than any of this. RIght now it seems like what you really want is for someone else to take over the main character spot and are looking for any excuse to do so. I just don't get it. Why go through all this instead of just saying "Yajirobe should've done CPR"? Goku takes henchmen to the moon, but THIS wrecks your suspension of disbelief.

I highly doubt I'm the only person who has a problem with this.

I'd be willing to bet that it's VERY rare that people would agree.

[ekrolo2]

On the subject of Piccolo Daimao, I see him as a trend setter for future bad guys, he's the first of his kind and most if not all of DBs future bad guys very much follow in his footsteps to varying degrees. The problem with him is that he IS the first of his kind, meaning the series can and has done his shtick a lot better with following antagonists whether collectively or in individual elements so when you go back to Daimao, he feels like a shitty version of what comes later instead of the guy to sort of pave the way for his various successors.

It's kind of like the Killing Joke where we've gotten so many better stories about Batman/Jokers relationship that going back to it, it feels kind of...meh.

He's not a shitty version of anything. He's far more interesting than Cell or Buu.

I was referring to how people can look back on him, not my own views. I don't mind him myself but I've never personally been invested much in the Daimao/Kami dynamic.

[ABED]

The Kami connection isn't what I was referring to. I like Piccolo because he has an aura about him. He is genuinely menacing. It also helps that the arc is kept relatively short and to the point. A number of the arcs are drawn out, so big bads overstay their welcome.

[Lord Beerus]

I never had any problem comprehending that point, but there's a huge difference between the A-story being on someone other than Goku and outright changing the main character. You aren't asking for them to have A central role, you are saying they should have THE central role... all because a heart restarts! Great stories can still be told without the main character of a story, but it's a bad idea to switch main characters. They build up what you could call "emotional equity", and you can't replicate that. Tenshinhan's revenge isn't as emotionally satisfying as Goku getting revenge for the death of his best friend and master. We know them and care about them. We've just met Tenshinhan and were just starting to get to know him.

You're not fully grasping the crux of my issue with this.

I'm just saying that a far more believable and less forced fashion to approach the story following King Piccolo killing Goku was to have him stay dead, instead of deciding to unbelievably half-ass the scenario and undercut to a degree King Piccolo as a threat by having Goku killed at his hand, to only then suddenly come back to life with out any explanation.

If you want to sell the idea that King Piccolo could kill Goku, have him stay when he's killed by him. Because when the Goku is only character that King Piccolo kills but manages to come back to life, then it becomes abundantly clear that narrative want more than anything wants for Goku to remain alive, regardless of the implausibility of any of the scenarios, above any other significant character in that arc.

The story doesn't have to take such contrived and convoluted direction just to keep the plot going. It could have taken other avenues which could have retained the the suspension of disbelief, heighten the stake and increase the unpredictably, while also giving the supporting cast a chance to majorly contribute to the plot for that arc. I'm not asking for the like of Tien and Yamcha to suddenly become the main characters of Dragon Ball for the remainder of it's entirety. I'm just suggesting a far more seamless and believable transition of events for that arc in particular.

And yet again, your armchair quarterbacking is far worse and commits the same sins you claim to be getting around. How is Kami convincing Enma Daio to undo his death any better than a heart restarting on its own? The CPR is a better idea than any of this. RIght now it seems like what you really want is for someone else to take over the main character spot and are looking for any excuse to do so. I just don't get it. Why go through all this instead of just saying "Yajirobe should've done CPR"? Goku takes henchmen to the moon, but THIS wrecks your suspension of disbelief.

Again, I'm not asking for Goku's position as a central character to be taken away permanently by other characters for the remainder of the entire story. I'm just suggesting that, for the King Piccolo arc, you could have Goku out of action and have the supporting cast play a more central on that occasion. Instead of finding the most ridiculous excuse for Goku to remain in the plot because he must be the one to deal with King Piccolo and no-one else can.

And yes, we know that Dragon Ball is the kind of setting where talking rabbits can end up on the moon. But the series also shows that, despite its unconventional setting, those kinds of character can still die in the most conventional means. And more importantly, when they die, they stay dead unless a literal outside force intervenes. Goku's scenario of being killed, but somehow managing to get his own heart beating without any outside help is the only case that exists in the entirety of Dragon Ball. Which just makes that scenario all the more jarring for a show that plays it relatively straight with the idea and life and death and its limitations, even by Dragon Ball's own unconventional standards.

You accuse me of armchair quarterbacking and yet you're doing the same thing by stating that having a another character in the position of main character is a bad idea, when many stories have switched different to having main characters for certain parts of the stories and they've worked out well.

[ABED]

You're not fully grasping the crux of my issue with this.

I do get it, I simply disagree with you. Why do people think that the reason people disagree is because they don't understand them? I'm clear what your issue with it is, I simply don't for a second think that what was in the show is any less forced or unbelievable than any number of things from the show. For crying out loud, it's a show where Goku takes two lackies to the moon so they can make treats. You don't need an explanation for a temporary stopping of the heart. Goku wasn't dead. What you consider implausible in DB world is completely arbitrary and I guarentee you there are so few people that share your view, and fewer that hold it with as much fervor as you do.

Your ideas about how to up the stakes don't in any way change any of the fundamental problems you believe are present. How are the stakes increased if a deity can just decide to bring him back? The water Goku drinks to gain his power is far more problematic. You're just substituting one issue for others. You can say you want the supporting cast to contribute, but that's not what you want. You want them to take over the story. It's a truly terrible idea, especially with Yamcha of all characters. He's constantly losing, but HE is going to help defeat Piccolo Daimao? This to me seems like your biggest issue, otherwise you would've jumped on the CPR idea because the other one is far worse. Goku is taken out of action and a character we just met and a perpetual loser are going to take over the series for a while?

I'm not asking for Goku's position as a central character to be taken away permanently

Never said you were, but in your example, it's still a bad idea. It's far more dramatically satisfying if Goku is the one to kill Piccolo and get revenge for Kuririn and Muten Roshi. And does it even need to be said that Goku isn't like normal people? Even granting that we don't know that he's an alien, he has a tail for crying out loud. There's your answer. Why can Goku come back and others can't? He's friggin Goku and much tougher and he's inherently different from every other fighter in the story.

You accuse me of armchair quarterbacking and yet you're doing the same thing by stating that having a another character in the position of main character is a bad idea, when many stories have switched different to having main characters for certain parts of the stories and they've worked out well.

I'm not. Armchair quarterbacking is rewriting the story. I'm not rewriting it. I'm simply saying that I dislike your idea. Many stories have switched main characters after a long time and they are never as good. Even in DBZ, Gohan as the main character wasn't as interesting. The Great Saiyaman stuff was boring and his match against Cell was dull until Goku had to help him. Plenty of other shows have tried switching main characters and I can't think of one that was as good as it ever was.

[Lord Beerus]

ABED, this argument going to go in circles, so let's just agree to disagree and move on.

[ABED]

I don't agree to that.

In case you didn't get it, that's a Simpsons reference.

[precita]

IMO the weakest part of Dragonball was the early portions of the Red Ribbon arc, particularly with Silver. It improved a bit as we got into Muscle Tower, but there were still some boring parts there, Buyon and Major Metallitron weren't very interesting. Thankfully Ninja Murasaki was funny and the climax was good. Not a bid fan of Android 8 either, but ok. The Red Ribbon arc didn't start to improve until the General Blue episodes, mainly because Krillin and Bulma were brought back in and it wasn't just Goku alone anymore.

Seems to me Toriyama was trying his first hand at real villains after the comical Pilaf, but the Red Ribbon army being normal humans would be outclassed by Goku in so many ways. They were decent episodes, but not my favorite.

[KBABZ]

Red Ribbon for me is the Dragon Ball arc primarily because it's the World Tour for Goku, as it's where we see the world as we know it expanded and fleshed out. It's also where Goku encounters his first true villains, first with General Blue, but more solidly with Tao Pai-Pai, and meets new friends such as Suno and Upa. However as mentioned it does have pacing problems as far as the anime is concerned: the Colonel Silver stuff doesn't really add anything in particular and by sticking to the manga it has a really anti-climactic ending. Muscle Tower as well I think is a slog as it takes too many episodes to get through, not to mention the filler-filled robot pirate guardian episode and the ludicrous catwalk sequence. I've also always felt like the Baba saga comes off as filler considering it takes away all the momentum of defeating the RRA and replaces it with... another Tournament??

I've also never quite seen why the 23rd tournament is the best of the three. For me it's the weakest overall because we've already done this format twice before, and it's made extra predictable by hyping up the Goku vs. Piccolo rivalry, all but confirming that they'll be the finalists and sucking the Tenshin(han) out of most of the other fights (although the Cyborg Tao one is indeed brilliant). My favourite has always been the 22nd because Goku is now fighting seriously and is showing his battle strategist mindset that helps make him feel much more intelligent than before, plus there's the Turtle/Crane school rivalry. 21st meanwhile is still embracing the more gag manga side and has a very entertaining lineup of gimmick fighters.

As for the Daimao arc, one aspect that brings it down a lot for me is how god-damn repetitive the music track selection is.

[ABED]

I love the Muscle Tower stuff. It's only 6 episodes and they move well.

it takes away all the momentum of defeating the RRA

Had the tournament not been there, it was at the end. All that was left was for Bora to be wished back.

already done this format twice before, and it's made extra predictable by hyping up the Goku vs. Piccolo rivalry, all but confirming that they'll be the finalists and sucking the Tenshin(han) out of most of the other fights

We always knew what the finals were going to be. I don't see how that one is any more obvious than the others and what does "sucking the Tenshin(han) out..." even mean?

[Lord Beerus]

For the record, I was going to comment on that God fucking awful pedophilia shtick they did in the anime with General Blue, but I didn't want to touch that shit with a thirty inch pole. I thought, at the end of day, it was better left unmentioned from my perspective. I hated that angle so much, I didn't want to even give it any attention.

[Gaffer Tape]

Hey! It's nice to see someone else complain about that heart-automatically-restarting nonsense. I brought that up almost three years ago in Dragon Ball Dissection. Well, that, and that whole section is a boring retread of the Tao Pai Pai section of the Red Ribbon Army Arc.

[ABED]

That's two, but why is anyone bothered by a heart restarting? It's causeless? Bullcrap! Goku Do you really need a heart restarting to be explained when Goku has a tail. Clearly he's not exactly human. Perhaps his heart didn't stop completely, but was just shallow.

Well, that, and that whole section is a boring retread of the Tao Pai Pai section of the Red Ribbon Army Arc

I can see that but it's not exactly the same. For one, Goku is being carried by someone else and he's not the only character whose story we are following. There are a lot of similarities but enough differences, especially in execution that I'm fine with it. Would you also prefer Goku be dead and other characters take over?

Speaking of Tao Pai Pai, Upa and Bora's theme that plays after Bora is killed and Goku rushes headstrong into a battle he can't win is a great moment that is spoiled a little by that boing sound in the music. It would be perfect if not for that sound.

[Gaffer Tape]

That's two, but why is anyone bothered by a heart restarting? It's causeless? Bullcrap! Goku Do you really need a heart restarting to be explained when Goku has a tail. Clearly he's not exactly human. Perhaps his heart didn't stop completely, but was just shallow.

Earlier in this thread, you compare this to other superhuman feats the characters do and survive, like being thrown into mountains. This isn't the same thing. Yeah, they're durable, but when, say, Vegeta's arm is broken, he doesn't just snap it back into place and keep fighting. It presumably takes much more for his arm to be broken than it does for ours, but when it happens, it's the same kind of debilitating injury it is for us. It cripples him, and it requires treatment to be functioning again. The only time someone just walks off a broken bone is Spopovitch, and when it happens, everyone acts completely freaked out that he could do that... because even in Dragon Ball it's not normal to just spontaneously fix injuries. And, well, it's also a ripoff of Tao Pai Pai, and, just like almost every other instance, that arc did it better. Not only did it not specify an actual cause of impairment, it gave a specific reason as to why the injury did not have the intended effect, and, for the two-point conversion, had that reason tie into the themes of the arc. Here, it's almost as if Toriyama admits that he's just ripping himself off, throws up his hands, and goes, "Eh, whatever. I don't need a reason anymore. He's just better somehow."

Would you also prefer Goku be dead and other characters take over?

No, I feel this is Goku's story, and there's no need to take him out of it. I just feel that this element could have and should have been handled better. Either Toriyama wrote himself into a corner and couldn't think of a better reason to interrupt Goku's and Piccolo's fight, or he succumbed to the temptation of laying on the cliffhanger drama too thick without a satisfying payoff.

Speaking of Tao Pai Pai, Upa and Bora's theme that plays after Bora is killed and Goku rushes headstrong into a battle he can't win is a great moment that is spoiled a little by that boing sound in the music. It would be perfect if not for that sound.

Oh, yeah. That is something we definitely agree on, and I complained about it in Dragon Ball Dissection. The Upa and Bora theme is one of my favorites, but the incessant mouth harp really ruins it. It's the only time I feel Kikuchi overuses that instrument to the point of distraction.

[MR.Mark]

You can't hand wave that It's just fiction when Lord Beerus complains about Goku's heart, then argue there's logic behind any questionable writing decisions made by Toriyama regarding the characters actions. That's not backing up your arguments, that's picking and choosing what's more important to you. You're lacking consistency in your own viewpoints, so I can't take your opinions very seriously.

[ABED]

Nothing was broken in Goku, it's not a good comparison. He has a weak heartbeat. This isn't handwaving, it's a simply matter of deduction. Goku has a tail, he stronger than most people, it's a world where our anatomy and science doesn't neccessarily apply, and you all are scraping the bottom of the barrel for reasons to dislike this moment. HE HAS A TAIL! Clearly he's not normal. So if his heartbeat can restart when no one else's does, then chalk it up to Goku's weird physiology. This isn't even my trying desperately to put a square peg in a round hole. From the very start of the series, we knew Goku was physically different from everyone, and not just stronger.

it's also a ripoff of Tao Pai Pai, and, just like almost every other instance, that arc did it better

A rip off... of HIMSELF!? Is that even possible? And no, I don't think Tao Pai Pai section did it better. It did it well, but I liked both fights against Piccolo better. The only thing I think was better was the water. It's a deus ex machina, although at least he has to go through extraordinary pain to gain that strength.

The CPR thing works fine. Given that, I still don't see why THIS of all things bothers anyone.

he succumbed to the temptation of laying on the cliffhanger drama too thick without a satisfying payoff.

How is there not a satisfying payoff? Through this we see the bond that has formed between Yajirobe and Goku. Goku gains the power neccessary to defeat Piccolo, ultimately does, and Yajirobe saves his life. Yajirobe didn't know if Piccolo was still alive when he drove to help his friend, so he was willing to risk everything for the sake of someone he just met. That's the payoff to it all.

[Gaffer Tape]

Nothing was broken in Goku, it's not a good comparison. He has a weak heartbeat.

See, this right here is why I don't like engaging in debates with you. You are the king of semantics. You don't look at full arguments. You take out one word that you don't like and focus on that. If it's not literally, pin-point the exact same thing, you're going to complain about it, even though analogies don't work that way in the first place. But Goku's heart was STOPPED. No, that is not literally the exact same thing as a physical break in a bone, because the heart is not a bone (QED). But if my watch is not ticking anymore, I can still accurately say it's "broken," and that doesn't necessarily mean its physical components have been ripped to pieces.

[ABED]

Nothing was broken in Goku, it's not a good comparison. He has a weak heartbeat.

See, this right here is why I don't like engaging in debates with you. You are the king of semantics. You don't look at full arguments. You take out one word that you don't like and focus on that. If it's not literally, pin-point the exact same thing, you're going to complain about it, even though analogies don't work that way in the first place. But Goku's heart was STOPPED. No, that is not literally the exact same thing as a physical break in a bone, because the heart is not a bone (QED). But if my watch is not ticking anymore, I can still say it's "broken," and that doesn't necessarily mean its physical components have been ripped to pieces.

I have gone through the points of the argument in various ways. This was another way. I do get the full argument and I gave my rebuttals to it earlier. Your point is no different in essence than anyone else's. You think his revival wasn't given a cause. That a broken arm mending needs something to fix it. This point however was important. I don't think Goku was broken and needed someone to restart his heart. I think he was injured, severely, but not to the point of death, just close to it. It stopped beating temporarily and who's to say that his heart can't beat very shallowly. It's not like Piccolo spent 20 or 30 minutes checking on him.

And semantics matter! When I say that nothing was broken, I mean that we don't know for a fact that his heart stopped completely. Just enough for it to fool Piccolo. We don't know enough about how Goku's physiology works. He has a tail and he turned into a giant ape at the beginning of the story. This is fiction, so saying he's different and the normal rules of how the heart works is moot. I was saying that he wasn't broken, he's just a little worse for wear.

So THERE. You want an explanation, you got it. Goku isn't normal. That's not a stretch, it's shown.

Mr. Mark, it doesn't matter if you take me serious. I don't when you create strawmen. I didn't handwave anything. Goku's alien physiology is a good enough explanation for something that isn't that big of a deal anyway.