Roshi's antics

[Metalwario64]

[EDIT]
On second thought, I think I probably shouldn't partake in this discussion. My apologies.

[rereboy]

That may be so, but as I said originally, as a child I didn't take it seriously. In fact, as a child I didn't even pay attention to it really. As an adult I can't help but notice.

If you enjoyed horror movies in the past where people gets torn apart, but have since lost your taste for it (maybe because you saw someone getting really hurt in real life), it doesn't mean that the people that still enjoy horror movies like that are wrong or that the movies are wrong. The movies are still not meant to be taken seriously. The one wrong would be you because you would have lost the ability to not take seriously something that is not meant to be taken seriously. The issue with Roshi is the same.

Continue with your quote of what I said; I went on to correct myself. But in case it's not clear, I'm sorry, I take it back -- he's not a pedophile. Still doesn't change my stance. That wasn't the make or break point to my argument.

I've already responded to your stance several times and I've already pointed why it doesn't make sense numerous times with several examples, imo.

[AgitoZ]

That wasn't the make or break point to my argument.

Your argument is still particularly weak. Roshi doesn't get a pat on the back for being a sexual assaulter/harasser. Roshi gets far in life for being a good martial artist not because he's a dangerous pervert.

And your other point about Roshi being a protagonist/hero also isn't particularly strong. As others have pointed out, Goku, the actual main character of DB, isn't some bastion of virtue. About two decades after Dragon Ball ran in Weekly Shonen Jump, Death Note would start its serialization. That series has a protagonist who is a mass murder/serial killer with a god complex. Would you say anyone involved in that is supportive of murder?

[TheZFighter]

That may be so, but as I said originally, as a child I didn't take it seriously. In fact, as a child I didn't even pay attention to it really. As an adult I can't help but notice.

If you enjoyed horror movies in the past where people gets turned apart, but have since lost your taste for it (maybe because you saw someone getting really hurt in real life), it doesn't mean that the people that still enjoy horror movies like that are wrong or that the movies are wrong. The movies are still not meant to be taken seriously. The one wrong would be you because you would have lost the ability to not take seriously something that is not meant to be taken seriously. The issue with Roshi is the same.

Clearly I must be watching Dragon Ball wrong then.

The fact is Roshi's pervy side was toned down/ used less, and Roshi himself wasn't used as much in DBZ, so someone else clearly wasn't cool with it either.

[PsionicWarrior]

The fact is Roshi's pervy side was toned down/ used less, and Roshi himself wasn't used as much in DBZ, so someone else clearly wasn't cool with it either.

No offense but that's pretty much your own speculation, there can be tons of reasons as of why Roshi wasn't used as much in Z, like he couldn't keep up with recurrent crew for example lol

[Kanassa]

Some things cannot be made into a joke and this is just one of them. To me, those who can't understand that, are either lacking some sort of basic human emotion, or just don't have any experience with people who are victims of such things, thus living a rather sheltered life.

The beauty of humor is that it's a concept that has no boundaries, no limitations; it targets everyone and grasps every subject it can latch onto. That will always be my belief, and no; I do have basic human emotions, I have plenty of experience with Victims of all sorts and I've been looking at the world without censored since I was shat out in Berlin. Fuck, my laundry list of fucked up experiences are why I adore dark humor so much. I enjoy the odd suicide joke specifically because I tried to commit suicide once.

As long as the joke is well told, it deserves to be told; though Roshi's gags, as well as a lot of Toriyama's gags, are as well told as a wet fart.

[rereboy]

That may be so, but as I said originally, as a child I didn't take it seriously. In fact, as a child I didn't even pay attention to it really. As an adult I can't help but notice.

If you enjoyed horror movies in the past where people gets turned apart, but have since lost your taste for it (maybe because you saw someone getting really hurt in real life), it doesn't mean that the people that still enjoy horror movies like that are wrong or that the movies are wrong. The movies are still not meant to be taken seriously. The one wrong would be you because you would have lost the ability to not take seriously something that is not meant to be taken seriously. The issue with Roshi is the same.

Clearly I must be watching Dragon Ball wrong then.

The fact is Roshi's pervy side was toned down/ used less, and Roshi himself wasn't used as much in DBZ, so someone else clearly wasn't cool with it either.

If you are taking seriously something that is not meant to be taken seriously, I would definitely say that you are using the wrong mindset. It would be kind of like someone telling you a joke about a British man, a French man and a Russian man, and when the punch line comes where the French is the one that was worse off, you ask seriously "what do you have against the French?" because your grandfather, who you really like, is french.

[TheGreatness25]

I want to make one last contribution to this thread, because it's honestly not going anywhere for me.

Clarifying That It Cannot Be Made Into a Joke
1) The topic is very controversial and I say cannot be made into a joke because there is no scenario in which it's funny.
2) The topic cannot be made into a joke because not only is it something that can actually happen in real life, it does happen, affecting many people.
3) Saying that "it's okay" and "it's just a joke" dismisses many people's real life emotions.

Now, we're talking about Roshi, not Goku, not Bulma, we're talking about Roshi's antics. We're not talking about Goku being a great hero or Bulma using herself in other situations. And nobody said anything about Bulma being scarred for life or anything. We're talking about our thoughts and feelings on Roshi's antics.

Laughing It Off
1) I'm not saying that you can't enjoy it or laugh at it.
2) I'm saying that you can't dismiss whoever has a problem with it and just tell them that it's a joke -- to many people, it isn't.
3) I believe that people should have enough sympathy, empathy, and humanity to understand why people would have a massive problem with this kind of "humor" instead of trying to shut them down as if they're supposed to laugh along just because the creator did.

Roshi Being a Protagonist
1) This isn't just a personality quirk, this is a pretty big deal even if it is fiction and even if it is not supposed to be taken seriously.
2) The fact that the series doesn't address it as alarming, but rather comedic, takes away the seriousness of this kind of personality, and I believe that's harmful.

Finally, this isn't about censorship or whether it should be removed. This is about being able to understand why someone would not take it as a joke or laugh along, because it's a serous real-life issue. You can do what you'd like, but many jump on people who talk about how terrible it is as if they're the ones that are wrong. People don't have to go on the defensive -- nobody's saying that if you enjoy it you're a bad person, it's just all a way of saying that it's in extremely poor taste. Your opinion won't change, mine won't, others' won't -- all we can do is understand and respect where the other person is coming from.

So, I wanted to go out on that note because throwing around accusations and strong statements is just a result of getting lost in the shuffle and not seeing the bigger picture, and the bigger picture is understanding. But please, don't try to justify it to someone who is offended by basically telling them that they're offended for no reason. And saying that it's okay because it was not meant to be taken seriously also doesn't work because if you walked down the street saying things that you know are offensive, you can't blame people for wanting to beat you up no matter how much of a joke you intended it to be. Remember that humor is subjective and you can still very much hurt someone even if you don't think it's a serious thing.

Anyway, I'm going to try to duck out of this because its really just wheels spinning in the mud.

[Cipher]

Yet again you're equating a cartoon with a real life example and treating it as if it were the same. People draw and write what they want. It is absolutely their right to draw sexual harassment gags if they choose to, like it's their right to draw and write whatever other joke they want. So, yes, the question is "Are these gags funny? How would they be well executed?" rather than "How can we censor this?" Art that makes you uncomfortable deserves to exist just as much as any other.

I want you to find a single time not just in this thread, but in any of my four-thousand posts on this forum, where I advocate for censoring art before you say something like that.

I would never censor Kame-Sennin's gags, and in this very thread suggested that the conversation here was to arrive at a stance on them, or acknowledge their impact on the series, rather than to strip them out. Don't put words in people's mouths. I'm legit angry about this post.

If you want to trade uncomfortable art sometime, I'm so confident I could show you something new and bizarre that I'm down for it. I like plenty of art with weird, uncomfortable sex stuff. A lot of it more than DB. My favorite movies are Dogtooth, Weekend and Inland Empire. One of my favorite manga artists outside Toriyama is fucking Maruo Suehiro. I have a Mastter of Fine Arts degree. I'm all about pushing the envelope, and frank sexuality, and even purposefully pushing through the boundaries of bad taste. Kame-Sennin's blithe sexual harassment jokes aren't any of that. This isn't challenging art. They're less "Let's ruffle feathers" and more, "This is lightly tolerated and makes for a good source of humor." They're not going anywhere, but if you're unwilling to consider that they may be deserving of criticism, I don't know why you're in a forum to talk about a twenty-year-old series in the first place.

[PsionicWarrior]

Anyway, I'm going to try to duck out of this because its really just wheels spinning in the mud.

Dude, each and every one of your points has previously been answered multiple times by several posters in the last couple of pages.

[Asura]

Now, we're talking about Roshi, not Goku, not Bulma

This sums up perfectly why your points are hypocritical. You want us to focus on what you personally find offensive, and dismiss other things that follow your same argumentative logic but that you don't find offensive. You're essentially arguing that jokes should conform only to what you are comfortable with.

[Doctor.]

Yet again you're equating a cartoon with a real life example and treating it as if it were the same. People draw and write what they want. It is absolutely their right to draw sexual harassment gags if they choose to, like it's their right to draw and write whatever other joke they want. So, yes, the question is "Are these gags funny? How would they be well executed?" rather than "How can we censor this?" Art that makes you uncomfortable deserves to exist just as much as any other.

I want you to find a single time not just in this thread, but in any of my four-thousand posts on this forum, where I advocate for censoring art before you say something like that.

I would never censor Kame-Sennin's gags, and in this very thread suggested that the conversation here was to arrive at a stance on them, or acknowledge their impact on the series, rather than to strip them out. Don't put words in people's mouths. I'm legit angry about this post.

If you want to trade uncomfortable art sometime, I'm so confident I could show you something new and bizarre that I'm down for it. I like plenty of art with weird, uncomfortable sex stuff. A lot of it more than DB. My favorite movies are Dogtooth, Weekend and Inland Empire. One of my favorite manga artists outside Toriyama is fucking Maruo Suehiro. Kame-Sennin's blithe sexual harassment jokes aren't challenging art. They're just thoughtless gags. They're not going anywhere, but if you're unwilling to consider that they may be deserving of criticism, I don't know why you're in a forum to talk about a twenty-year-old series in the first place.

I apologize, I admit I interpreted the "It would have been best to not include Kame-Sennin sexual harassment gags in the first place" comment wrongly and got a bit heated and lumped you together with some of the more questionable opinions flying around in this thread. That wasn't fair of me.

I don't like art that focuses on sex, so I'll pass. Kame-sennin's gags aren't challenging art, but I didn't claim that either, I said that art that makes you uncomfortable (and 'you' in a general sense, not you specifically) has the right to exist. I understand where the criticisms are coming from, I just vehemently disagree. It's not a question about the degree of how bad this is, I don't think it's an issue at all.

[rereboy]

I want to make one last contribution to this thread, because it's honestly not going anywhere for me.

Clarifying That It Cannot Be Made Into a Joke
1) The topic is very controversial and I say cannot be made into a joke because there is no scenario in which it's funny.

You are not a dictator to stipulate that. You personally finding it not funny is irrelevant because if humor had to conform to every single opinion of what isn't funny or what hurts or offends, humor simply wouldn't exist.

2) The topic cannot be made into a joke because not only is it something that can actually happen in real life, it does happen, affecting many women.

So does violence. Should every victim complain about action movies? Now we are not talking about humor anymore, we are talking about litteraly everything because there will always be one person that has a problem with whatever.

3) Saying that "it's okay" and "it's just a joke" dismisses many people's real life emotions.

No, the distinction between something that is meant to be taken seriously and one that isn't meant to be taken serious is a factual one.

Laughing It Off
1) I'm not saying that you can't enjoy it or laugh at it.

No, you said that those who do are "either lacking some sort of basic human emotion, or just don't have any experience with people who are victims of such things, thus living a rather sheltered life".

2) I'm saying that you can't dismiss whomever has a problem with it and just tell them that it's a joke -- to many people, it isn't.

Telling people that it's a joke is, literally, describing what it is. It is literally a joke, something that was meant for humor, and, as such, not meant to be taken seriously. This is all factual. And nobody tells people that it's a joke randomly. People say that it's a joke when other people decide to take it seriously when it's not meant to be taken seriously and criticize it. It's in response to that that people say that it's a joke.

3) I believe that people should have enough sympathy, empathy, and humanity to understand why people would have a massive problem with this kind of "humor" instead of trying to shut them down as if they're supposed to laugh along just because the creator did.

Like I said above, nobody tells people that it's a joke randomly to people. People say that it's a joke when other people decide to take it seriously when it's not meant to be taken seriously and criticize it. It's in response to that that people say that it's a joke. Nobody is telling them to laugh or find it funny. They are telling them the intentions behind the joke, that they are not meant to be taken seriously and thus there is no point in treating as if they are serious.

Roshi Being a Protagonist
1) This isn't just a personality quirk, this is a pretty big deal even if it is fiction and even if it is not supposed to be taken seriously.

This is a complete non-issue. Most action heroes are extremely violent. That doesn't mean that that violence is actually supposed to be taken seriously or that the movie is supporting the use of violence seriously.

2) The fact that the series doesn't address it as alarming, but rather comedic, takes away the seriousness of this kind of personality, and I believe that's harmful.

The series addresses it by playing it non-seriously. Your belief that is harmful strikes me as the same kind of belief that a fan of horror movies is harmed by them or that a fan of Grand Theft Auto is harmed by it.

Finally, this isn't about censorship or whether it should be removed. This is about being able to understand why someone would not take it as a joke or laugh along, because it's a serous real-life issue. You can do what you'd like, but many jump on people who talk about how terrible it is as if they're the ones that are wrong.

That's being overly defensive. People explaining that it's a joke, thus explaining the actual intentions behind it and saying that viewing it seriously when it's not meant to be taken seriously is the wrong mindset is not an attack, and certainly it's not in any way pressure to find it funny or laugh.

People don't have to go on the defensive -- nobody's saying that if you enjoy it you're a bad person, it's just all a way of saying that it's in extremely poor taste.

That's doesn't feel like what you were saying before. Anyway, it seems that you continue to have the point of view that you were somehow attacked. You weren't.

So, I wanted to go out on that note because throwing around accusations and strong statements is just a result of getting lost in the shuffle and not seeing the bigger picture, and the bigger picture is understanding.

Understanding is basically what the people that responded to you were explaining to you.

But please, don't try to justify it to someone who is offended by basically telling them that they're offended for no reason. And saying that it's okay because it was not meant to be taken seriously also doesn't work because if you walked down the street saying things that you know are offensive, you can't blame people for wanting to beat you up no matter how much of a joke you intended it to be.

If someone beat you over a joke (as in an actual, legitimate joke, not some sort of insult masked as a joke) that person would be in the wrong, not you. That much should be obvious.

Remember that humor is subjective and you can still very much hurt someone even if you don't think it's a serious thing.

Irrelevant. Humor can't be concerned with that because otherwise it would be impossible to do anything, there would be always someone complaining.

[Cipher]

I apologize, I admit I interpreted the "It would have been best to not include Kame-Sennin sexual harassment gags in the first place" comment wrongly and got a bit heated and lumped you together with some of the more questionable opinions flying around in this thread. That wasn't fair of me.

I don't like art that focuses on sex, so I'll pass. Kame-sennin's gags aren't challenging art, but I didn't claim that either, I said that art that makes you uncomfortable (and 'you' in a general sense, not you specifically) has the right to exist. I understand where the criticisms are coming from, I just vehemently disagree. It's not a question about the degree of how bad this is, I don't think it's an issue at all.

Apology accepted, though we still disagree about the impact and worthwhileness of these scenes.

[floofychan333]

Some things cannot be made into a joke and this is just one of them. To me, those who can't understand that, are either lacking some sort of basic human emotion, or just don't have any experience with people who are victims of such things, thus living a rather sheltered life.

Yeah, this is almost fascist rethoric man.

Wow. It's tragic to see that somebody is saying that criticism of their favourite series is "fascism."

Anyway, things have spiraled way out of control since I last posted here so I'm a bit lost and will withdraw from the conversation. It's REALLY depressing that I'm having to see people defend sexual assault. Special credit to Cipher, TheGreatness25, and the endlessly reasonable VegettoEX for providing logic and reason in a conversation tarnished by the toxic sludge posted by the rape apologists. There's way more I could say here but it isn't worth my time to comment on all the infuriating things people are posting here. I'm pretty sure somebody's going to get banned soon or the thread will get locked. If so, I'm sorry for starting this thread and unintentionally exposing a member of our community.

[rereboy]

Some things cannot be made into a joke and this is just one of them. To me, those who can't understand that, are either lacking some sort of basic human emotion, or just don't have any experience with people who are victims of such things, thus living a rather sheltered life.

Yeah, this is almost fascist rethoric man.

Wow. It's tragic to see that somebody is saying that criticism of their favourite series is "fascism."

He didn't say that just because someone was criticizing DB. He said in response to the line "those who can't understand that, are either lacking some sort of basic human emotion, or just don't have any experience with people who are victims of such things, thus living a rather sheltered life".

It's REALLY depressing that I'm having to see people defend sexual assault.

No one in this topic defended sexual assault.

tarnished by the toxic sludge posted by the rape apologists.

Er... The only really toxic comment I saw in this topic was this one.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Well it's the same thing, many people say that GT or Super should never have been made, or that Goku should have been the only Super Saiyan, or that the Broly movies should never have been made, or such and such character should never have been introduced, etc.

Again, apples and oranges. People who complain about plot points are complaining about the way the story was handled and it's a whole different basket compared to people pretty much implying you shouldn't be allowed to write these kinds of jokes because it's "too far" or "in bad taste."

I don't see a difference. Both times people are complaining that they didn't like the way something was done and would have preferred it done differently.

[rereboy]

Well it's the same thing, many people say that GT or Super should never have been made, or that Goku should have been the only Super Saiyan, or that the Broly movies should never have been made, or such and such character should never have been introduced, etc.

Again, apples and oranges. People who complain about plot points are complaining about the way the story was handled and it's a whole different basket compared to people pretty much implying you shouldn't be allowed to write these kinds of jokes because it's "too far" or "in bad taste."

I don't see a difference. Both times people are complaining that they didn't like the way something was done and would have preferred it done differently.

I think there's a very clear difference. It's the same difference between someone hearing a joke and saying "you know, that joke would have been a lot better if instead of saying this, you said that, because that would build expectation and make the punch line more effective... and you really screwed this part, you should have a better delivery", and a guy saying "that joke is in poor taste because there are real people suffering from those issues, it's horrible, that joke shouldn't exist at all".

[Kokonoe]

Ah, yes. The beauty of humor is "Har, har, har! Let's find amusement in sexual harassment and assault". Guys, I watched Family Guy and they do it there and it's soooooooooo funny! We should use Family Guy as the beacon to guide what all fiction directs to because Family Guy is the gold standard.

Not only that, let's talk about how there's murderers or people being killed, let's talk about how in horror movies people get cut up in ways. Let's completely ignore how freakin' damaging rape is compared to typical violence, how making a joke about anything relating to this subject is in absolute poor taste, and let's keep continuing defend this garbage by saying crap like "humor has no bounds, the best part is you can do ANYTHING with it". Yeah, that's a good freakin' excuse, do whatever you want no matter how damaging it may be. To heck with that nonsense.

[rereboy]

Ah, yes. The beauty of humor is "Har, har, har! Let's find amusement in sexual harassment and assault". Guys, I watched Family Guy and they do it there and it's soooooooooo funny! We should use Family Guy as the beacon to guide what all fiction directs to because Family Guy is the gold standard.

Not only that, let's talk about how there's murderers or people being killed, let's talk about how in horror movies people get cut up in ways. Let's completely ignore how freakin' damaging rape is compared to typical violence, how making a joke about anything relating to this subject is in absolute poor taste, and let's keep continuing defend this garbage by saying crap like "humor has no bounds, the best part is you can do ANYTHING with it". Yeah, that's a good freakin' excuse, do whatever you want no matter how damaging it may be. To heck with that nonsense.

As it has been stated in the topic before, humor is either tolerated or it isn't tolerated. There's really no way around it because it's literally impossible to reach a consensus regarding what should go and what shouldn't.