Alright, I've made a few posts lately and I'm just going to add another one to the mix. I'm sure another fan has brought this up before so it's not like what I'm proposing is some groundbreaking thing. Still, many people debate the canonicity of Dragon Ball and I got to thinking. At the end of the day (at least as far as the anime and manga are concerned, ignoring the games) - There are now three main canons (as part of my head canon).
Toriyama/Toyotaro's Manga Canon: Original 42 volumes and the ongoing Super manga - Obviously, Toriyama's manga fits here but I also included Toyotaro with the Super manga since - Well, it's a manga. (I'm not sure if Super should be included because it's not part of the DEFINITIVE Toriyama 42 volume run, so tell me if you disagree)
Toei's Dragon Ball Expanded Universe: All Dragon Ball Z movies to GT - This one's the most interesting because it makes sense to me. Most fans and even Toriyama regard GT as a side story non-canon work. As a result, most people dismiss it of being a part of any canon. Still, what if GT could be considered canon - as part of the Z movies? For example, events like Goku using Dragon Fist in Movie 13 and also in GT, Trunks getting his sword in Movie 13 and using it in GT (or the opening, at least), and then Z movie villains being resurrected for the Super 17 Saga. I never considered this, but Z movies and GT being a part of one alternate reality canon that is streamlined with the original manga, but takes liberties makes sense to me. Kind of like Fullmetal Alchemist (Z movies and GT) when compared to Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood (original manga as well as modern Dragon Ball). Basically, the Z Movies/GT canon is like the Star Wars Expanded Universe now and can be mined for content such as: movie villains inspiring Anilaza, Broly inspiring Kale, etc.
Toei's Dragon Ball Modern Canon: Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, Dragon Ball Super - Not much to say for this one. Fans, Toriyama, and even Toei themselves probably regard this the new canon similar to Lucasfilm with Star Wars.
Like I said, this is my head canon now - but I'm not saying it's definitive (especially since Toei put out their own timeline). The Z movies and GT are now next to each other on my shelf because of this. Thoughts? Am I completely insane or what?
3 Main DB Canons Theory
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Re: 3 Main DB Canons Theory
I say it makes sense. I tend to think there are multiple timelines, so there’s one that the manga, one that includes some specials etc.
A few years ago, someone posted, I think it was 10 timelines that consisted of different events making each movie/special plausible just not in the same timeline and I really like that idea.
A few years ago, someone posted, I think it was 10 timelines that consisted of different events making each movie/special plausible just not in the same timeline and I really like that idea.
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KBABZ
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Re: 3 Main DB Canons Theory
I think it makes sense! I have three, but they're slightly different than yours:
1) Toriyama Canon: Jaco, DB Minus, Dragon Ball manga, Jump Special, BoG, RoF, and Super due to Toriyama's more direct involvement.
2) Anime canon: Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, Trunks and Bardock specials, and Dragon Ball GT.
3) Movie canon: Where all the pre-2013 movies are chucked into because they can't fit anywhere else. This includes the three Dragon Ball movies. For this continuity, some form of the Anime's events exist, but they have to be heavily reworked in order to fit with the films. I suppose you can throw in the Traffic and Fire Safety vids in here too?
I suppose there are also a bunch of micro-continuities, such as Kai's take on the manga storyline, Dragon Ball SD, and Path to Power.
1) Toriyama Canon: Jaco, DB Minus, Dragon Ball manga, Jump Special, BoG, RoF, and Super due to Toriyama's more direct involvement.
2) Anime canon: Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, Trunks and Bardock specials, and Dragon Ball GT.
3) Movie canon: Where all the pre-2013 movies are chucked into because they can't fit anywhere else. This includes the three Dragon Ball movies. For this continuity, some form of the Anime's events exist, but they have to be heavily reworked in order to fit with the films. I suppose you can throw in the Traffic and Fire Safety vids in here too?
I suppose there are also a bunch of micro-continuities, such as Kai's take on the manga storyline, Dragon Ball SD, and Path to Power.
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sunsetshimmer
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Re: 3 Main DB Canons Theory
Here is my opinion.
Real canon: 42 manga volumes + Jaco the galactic patrolman
Also, maybe original DBS outline
Original anime canon: DB->DBZ->DBGT + all the DBZ/GT TV specials
Now, the rest is a mess. Most movies can't be placed even in anime events, not even talking about manga. GT showed Cooler, but that's it, i mean it was more like a easter egg just like Kale is female-Broly even though no one mentioned Broly in series. Goku used dragon fist, but Vegito in DBS also used Final Kamehameha. Just a fanservice i guess. I mean DBZ itself accepted Garlic Jr. movie which contradicts story as well.
DBS is the biggest mess here. Part of it seems to directly follow manga with no hell seen before. Frieza never saw fight with Buu and never met Cell. Goku never fought in otherworld tournament.
yet DBS also incldues many fillers like Tuffles, non-canon anime version of Future Trunks special, filler version of Yadrats (even tho Toriyama provided official design for DB Online), Miss Piiza, Gregory.
It's hard to put DBS in both manga or anime timeline. In both cases there will be inconsistencies.
I guess it's because Toriyama writes manga sequel that TOEI make into DBZ sequel.
It's more DBZ sequel than manga sequel tbh, but i'd prefer it to be pure manga sequel to it wouldn't contradict GT and split anime canon into two different timelines.
Real canon: 42 manga volumes + Jaco the galactic patrolman
Also, maybe original DBS outline
Original anime canon: DB->DBZ->DBGT + all the DBZ/GT TV specials
Now, the rest is a mess. Most movies can't be placed even in anime events, not even talking about manga. GT showed Cooler, but that's it, i mean it was more like a easter egg just like Kale is female-Broly even though no one mentioned Broly in series. Goku used dragon fist, but Vegito in DBS also used Final Kamehameha. Just a fanservice i guess. I mean DBZ itself accepted Garlic Jr. movie which contradicts story as well.
DBS is the biggest mess here. Part of it seems to directly follow manga with no hell seen before. Frieza never saw fight with Buu and never met Cell. Goku never fought in otherworld tournament.
yet DBS also incldues many fillers like Tuffles, non-canon anime version of Future Trunks special, filler version of Yadrats (even tho Toriyama provided official design for DB Online), Miss Piiza, Gregory.
It's hard to put DBS in both manga or anime timeline. In both cases there will be inconsistencies.
I guess it's because Toriyama writes manga sequel that TOEI make into DBZ sequel.
It's more DBZ sequel than manga sequel tbh, but i'd prefer it to be pure manga sequel to it wouldn't contradict GT and split anime canon into two different timelines.
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Re: 3 Main DB Canons Theory
Manga Canon: Jaco The Galactic Patrolman, Dragon Ball minus, the OG manga, Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return(manga version), Movies versions of Battle of Gods and Resurrection 'F, Super manga.
Original Anime Canon: Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z (Including the specials and some of the movies*), Dragon Ball GT (including the special)
*As evidenced by the Garlic Jr. arc, certain villains returning in GT, Trunks sword in the Gt Opening, etc. I would say Toei included Z Movies 1, 5, 9, & 13.
Modern Anime Canon: Jaco The Galactic Patrolman, Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z Kai, The 2 Z specials, Japanese Cut of DBZ Kai TFC, Dragon Ball Super.
Original Anime Canon: Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z (Including the specials and some of the movies*), Dragon Ball GT (including the special)
*As evidenced by the Garlic Jr. arc, certain villains returning in GT, Trunks sword in the Gt Opening, etc. I would say Toei included Z Movies 1, 5, 9, & 13.
Modern Anime Canon: Jaco The Galactic Patrolman, Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z Kai, The 2 Z specials, Japanese Cut of DBZ Kai TFC, Dragon Ball Super.
Re: 3 Main DB Canons Theory
I can't help but break it into five larger Sections:
Section 1. Toriyama's Original Work:
The original 42 volumes. This is the inner-most core of the story's mythos, that from which everything else ultimately extends.
Section 2. Toei's Original Work:
The TV anime from the original run: Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, and Dragon Ball GT. Different creative body than Section 1, and as such it is a distinct Section. Canon memes to the side, GT was a continuation of the TV anime at the time, and as such it is a major piece of the original run. The Bardock and Trunks specials would be here, and depending on how many sub-categories you wanted to add to this one, so would the films (namely Z Movies 1, 5, and 8 ). If you were desperate to see Kai placed somewhere, it'd be as another sub-category of this Section.
Section 3. Toriyama's New Work:
The film versions of Battle of Gods and Revival of F, and Jaco the Galactic Patrolman. Same creator as Section 1, but this batch of content came roughly 20 years after the prior batch, and as such it is distinct. Although two of these items are films, and as such weren't drawn by Toriyama, he is responsible for the screenplay and script within.
Section 4. Toyotaro's Work:
The Revival of F manga adaptation, and the Super manga. These are distinct from Section 3, because, although they are manga created from his bullet points, they're neither directly drawn nor written by Toriyama.
Section 5. Toei's New Work:
The Super anime. Same creative body from Section 2 but, like Section 3's relationship with Section 1, there's a roughly two-decade long gap between the original and current batches. As such, they are distinct Sections.
Not sure where I'd put the 2008 Special. Probably either Section 3 or Section 5, depending on the exact level of involvement Toriyama had. Or, maybe some limbo category too small and niche to really stand apart from these five.
Section 1. Toriyama's Original Work:
The original 42 volumes. This is the inner-most core of the story's mythos, that from which everything else ultimately extends.
Section 2. Toei's Original Work:
The TV anime from the original run: Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, and Dragon Ball GT. Different creative body than Section 1, and as such it is a distinct Section. Canon memes to the side, GT was a continuation of the TV anime at the time, and as such it is a major piece of the original run. The Bardock and Trunks specials would be here, and depending on how many sub-categories you wanted to add to this one, so would the films (namely Z Movies 1, 5, and 8 ). If you were desperate to see Kai placed somewhere, it'd be as another sub-category of this Section.
Section 3. Toriyama's New Work:
The film versions of Battle of Gods and Revival of F, and Jaco the Galactic Patrolman. Same creator as Section 1, but this batch of content came roughly 20 years after the prior batch, and as such it is distinct. Although two of these items are films, and as such weren't drawn by Toriyama, he is responsible for the screenplay and script within.
Section 4. Toyotaro's Work:
The Revival of F manga adaptation, and the Super manga. These are distinct from Section 3, because, although they are manga created from his bullet points, they're neither directly drawn nor written by Toriyama.
Section 5. Toei's New Work:
The Super anime. Same creative body from Section 2 but, like Section 3's relationship with Section 1, there's a roughly two-decade long gap between the original and current batches. As such, they are distinct Sections.
Not sure where I'd put the 2008 Special. Probably either Section 3 or Section 5, depending on the exact level of involvement Toriyama had. Or, maybe some limbo category too small and niche to really stand apart from these five.
Re: 3 Main DB Canons Theory
I have the canon devided into levels as they all can't fit into one canon.
Level 1 : Toriyama's original manga/Kanzenban. The heart and soul of DB.
Level 2 : The above, Jaco's manga, the 2008 OVA, the 2 new movies and Toyotarou's manga.
Level 3 : DB, Z, GT & Z's original 13 movies.
Level 4 : DB, Kai & Super.
Level 1 : Toriyama's original manga/Kanzenban. The heart and soul of DB.
Level 2 : The above, Jaco's manga, the 2008 OVA, the 2 new movies and Toyotarou's manga.
Level 3 : DB, Z, GT & Z's original 13 movies.
Level 4 : DB, Kai & Super.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.
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Deathbringer
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Re: 3 Main DB Canons Theory
I had basically the same thing in my signature for quite a while but I had Toei's old canon just be DB, DBZ and DBGT with no movies canon in any of the 3 other than BoG and RF in the Toriyama canon. I also did other things like put DBK in the modern Toei canon over DBZ but if I wanted to list every difference I would be here a while.
I also made sure to clarify that just because something is non-canon doesn't make it bad by default and vice versa.
I also made sure to clarify that just because something is non-canon doesn't make it bad by default and vice versa.
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KBABZ
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Re: 3 Main DB Canons Theory
IMO that should go without saying. Otherwise it'd be impossible to get things like The Case of Being Reincarnated as Yamcha!Deathbringer wrote:I also made sure to clarify that just because something is non-canon doesn't make it bad by default and vice versa.
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Robo4900
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Re: 3 Main DB Canons Theory
I have always been telling people who make weird statements about canon that there were two timelines: Anime and manga. Manga being the original 42 manga volumes, and anime being Dragon Ball, Z, GT, the TV specials, and the broad strokes of the first Z movie.
Recently, with Super, I've amended this to add a third timeline: Dragon Ball, Kai, and Super.
And I also put Toyotaro's Super manga in with the manga timeline, and the broad strokes of the Battle Of Gods and Resurrection F movies.
And I name them thusly: The manga canon, the oldschool anime canon, and the modern anime canon.
IMO, this is really the only sensible way to approach the mess that is Dragon Ball canon. The original run's filler, the three TV specials, and GT all comprise one version of Dragon Ball. Super acknowledges some filler, but only that which was in Kai, so those two form a second splinter from the original series. And of course, the original 42 volumes of manga have always been pretty coherent; just add Toyotaro's sequel onto it(Since Toriyama is involved, and it's effectively considered the official follow-up to Toriyama's original manga), and boom, everything except the movies fits into three simple canons.
The movies are basically "What if" stories anyway, with no real attempt made to make any of them fit into any established canon aside from the first Z movie, so having that movie be the only one that isn't separate from the main continuities is probably the best way to do this.
Of course, this way of thinking of things means that GT is considered canon, but Broly isn't, so good luck trying to introduce this to the broader Dragon Ball fandom...
Naturally, the solution to that problem is to point out the fact that the concept of Dragon Ball canon is fun to think about, and try to somehow reconcile; but really doesn't matter that much outside of fun thought experiments like this one, so it's best not to get mad about it. But... Good luck getting an internet troll to listen to reason.
Recently, with Super, I've amended this to add a third timeline: Dragon Ball, Kai, and Super.
And I also put Toyotaro's Super manga in with the manga timeline, and the broad strokes of the Battle Of Gods and Resurrection F movies.
And I name them thusly: The manga canon, the oldschool anime canon, and the modern anime canon.
IMO, this is really the only sensible way to approach the mess that is Dragon Ball canon. The original run's filler, the three TV specials, and GT all comprise one version of Dragon Ball. Super acknowledges some filler, but only that which was in Kai, so those two form a second splinter from the original series. And of course, the original 42 volumes of manga have always been pretty coherent; just add Toyotaro's sequel onto it(Since Toriyama is involved, and it's effectively considered the official follow-up to Toriyama's original manga), and boom, everything except the movies fits into three simple canons.
The movies are basically "What if" stories anyway, with no real attempt made to make any of them fit into any established canon aside from the first Z movie, so having that movie be the only one that isn't separate from the main continuities is probably the best way to do this.
Of course, this way of thinking of things means that GT is considered canon, but Broly isn't, so good luck trying to introduce this to the broader Dragon Ball fandom...
Naturally, the solution to that problem is to point out the fact that the concept of Dragon Ball canon is fun to think about, and try to somehow reconcile; but really doesn't matter that much outside of fun thought experiments like this one, so it's best not to get mad about it. But... Good luck getting an internet troll to listen to reason.
The point of Dragon Ball is to enjoy it. Never lose sight of that.
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KBABZ
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Re: 3 Main DB Canons Theory
I'm liking the idea of DB/Kai/Super being an updated fourth continuity from the old DB/DBZ/DBGT timeline!
Broly is canon... but only to the movie continuity. So there!
Broly is canon... but only to the movie continuity. So there!
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Robo4900
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Re: 3 Main DB Canons Theory
Yeah, I like it too. It ties things up pretty neatly, and makes a lot of sense.KBABZ wrote:I'm liking the idea of DB/Kai/Super being an updated fourth continuity from the old DB/DBZ/DBGT timeline!
Haha. Well, as I say, Dragon Ball canon is rather messy, and best only thought of seriously in fun thought experiments like these. So... Sure, that works.KBABZ wrote:Broly is canon... but only to the movie continuity. So there!
The point of Dragon Ball is to enjoy it. Never lose sight of that.
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KBABZ
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Re: 3 Main DB Canons Theory
Haha. Well, as I say, Dragon Ball canon is rather messy, and best only thought of seriously in fun thought experiments like these. So... Sure, that works.KBABZ wrote:Broly is canon... but only to the movie continuity. So there!
[/quote]Yeah, if anything the lack of canon means that Dragon Ball is quite flexible for introducing new stories, be it fanfic run amok Dragon Ball Fusions, or fanfic run amok Dragon Ball Super*.
*Yes that was a joke
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Robo4900
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Re: 3 Main DB Canons Theory
A joke, to be sure, but an accurate one.KBABZ wrote:Yeah, if anything the lack of canon means that Dragon Ball is quite flexible for introducing new stories, be it fanfic run amok Dragon Ball Fusions, or fanfic run amok Dragon Ball Super*.Robo4900 wrote:Haha. Well, as I say, Dragon Ball canon is rather messy, and best only thought of seriously in fun thought experiments like these. So... Sure, that works.KBABZ wrote:Broly is canon... but only to the movie continuity. So there!
*Yes that was a joke
But yeah, DB canon is pretty loose. If you ask me, the original series, Z, a couple of the original movies, GT, the specials, and Battle Of Gods are all the main canon; everything else is just a what if.
Ha. Nice one.Bardo117 wrote:I've always wanted to own a Canon. The camera, that is.
The point of Dragon Ball is to enjoy it. Never lose sight of that.
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KBABZ
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Re: 3 Main DB Canons Theory
I agree. Even when those don't mix a lot of the time, they are meant to be Taken Seriously, compared to others like Xenoverse and Fusions which are meant to be more fun and experimental with the series' story.Robo4900 wrote:But yeah, DB canon is pretty loose. If you ask me, the original series, Z, a couple of the original movies, GT, the specials, and Battle Of Gods are all the main canon; everything else is just a what if.
Re: 3 Main DB Canons Theory
Canon story = Updated version of original 42 volumes. So Kanzenban and Full Color.
Melkaniator wrote: "DBS anime is a fan service series that delivers irrelevant dialogue, inconsistent writing, and lazy designs.
The DB manga never had so many mistakes, nor those were this constant."
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Son Perfect
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Re: 3 Main DB Canons Theory
from my prospective there are 5
1. Toriyama's Original Work
- Original 42 Volumes of Dragon Ball
2. Toei's Original Broadcast Run
- Dragon Ball
- Dragon Ball Z
(Includes TV Specials)
3. Toei's Bizzare Movie Continuum
- Dragon Ball
- the Dragon Ball movies
- Dragon Ball Z
- the Dragon Ball Z Movies
- Dragon Ball GT
( GT includes movie elements to it's cannon)
(Includes the TV specials and movies 18 + 19)
4. Toriyama/Toryotaro New Manga
- Original 42 Volumes of Dragon Ball
- New Dragon Ball Super manga
5. Toei's New Broadcast Run
- Dragon Ball Kai
- Dragon Ball Super
1. Toriyama's Original Work
- Original 42 Volumes of Dragon Ball
2. Toei's Original Broadcast Run
- Dragon Ball
- Dragon Ball Z
(Includes TV Specials)
3. Toei's Bizzare Movie Continuum
- Dragon Ball
- the Dragon Ball movies
- Dragon Ball Z
- the Dragon Ball Z Movies
- Dragon Ball GT
( GT includes movie elements to it's cannon)
(Includes the TV specials and movies 18 + 19)
4. Toriyama/Toryotaro New Manga
- Original 42 Volumes of Dragon Ball
- New Dragon Ball Super manga
5. Toei's New Broadcast Run
- Dragon Ball Kai
- Dragon Ball Super
I love Gohan a bit too much...
Re: 3 Main DB Canons Theory
There is no ordained canon of course, but this is ninety-nine percent in line with how I think of the series.Son Perfect wrote:from my prospective there are 5
1. Toriyama's Original Work
- Original 42 Volumes of Dragon Ball
2. Toei's Original Broadcast Run
- Dragon Ball
- Dragon Ball Z
(Includes TV Specials)
3. Toei's Bizzare Movie Continuum
- Dragon Ball
- the Dragon Ball movies
- Dragon Ball Z
- the Dragon Ball Z Movies
- Dragon Ball GT
( GT includes movie elements to it's cannon)
(Includes the TV specials and movies 18 + 19)
4. Toriyama/Toryotaro New Manga
- Original 42 Volumes of Dragon Ball
- New Dragon Ball Super manga
5. Toei's New Broadcast Run
- Dragon Ball Kai
- Dragon Ball Super
Except the GT bit, which for me is the continuation of the slightly different Dragon Ball world Toei had built up during the original two adaptations (from which it takes elements like the Tsufuru-jin, the sacred water, and its particular vision of Hell). To place it continuity with a bunch of movies which are themselves incongruous as any kind of single timeline never made any sense to me, especially based on a blink-and-you'll-miss it cameo from Coola.
Of course this means I do tend to think of Movie 13 as having "happened" in the timeline of the original adaptations and GT.
The rest of the movies are just doing their own thing, except when they explicitly draw connections to one another (and even that only really works with the original Dragon Ball three).
(I personally tend to think of the new Toriyama movies as being part of the extra Toyotaro Super branch as well, just because its versions of their events are severely truncated and non-existent, respectively.)
Re: 3 Main DB Canons Theory
My 3 main canons would be this:
- Original Manga canon: Dragon Ball Manga (42 volumes)
This is for the purists of the serie who don't consider the modern material.
- Original Anime canon: Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, Dragon Ball GT, TV Specials
This is TOEI's old canon before Dragon Ball's revival in 2013. This is probably probably what the most old DB fans are more familiar with.
- Modern canon: Dragon Ball Manga/Kai, Jaco, DB Minus, Dragon Ball Super Anime
The actual canon of Dragon Ball.
- Original Manga canon: Dragon Ball Manga (42 volumes)
This is for the purists of the serie who don't consider the modern material.
- Original Anime canon: Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, Dragon Ball GT, TV Specials
This is TOEI's old canon before Dragon Ball's revival in 2013. This is probably probably what the most old DB fans are more familiar with.
- Modern canon: Dragon Ball Manga/Kai, Jaco, DB Minus, Dragon Ball Super Anime
The actual canon of Dragon Ball.
悟 “Vincit qui se vincit”
What I consider canonical
What I consider canonical
Spoiler: