The Problem with Gohan

[ABED]

It's a bit of a click bait title, but it dawned on me what the fundamental problem with Gohan in the Cell arc was - he's too passive. While we can sit around and argue in circles whether Gohan was in character or not by trying before fighting Cell, the thing that has come to bother me most is how passive he is the entire arc. He's in the periphery for the bulk of the arc. He's constantly being told what to do. Nothing is his idea to the very end. Gohan doesn't choose anything. It's Goku who has to convince him to not give up and tell him when to fire the killing shot at Cell. I think that point is inarguable. Whether you are fine with him being passive is your prerogative.

[Michsi]

If you acknowledge that people can indeed like a character even for their passiveness, then why is him being passive a fundamental problem?

What you say is true, but in my case the problem I have with his character in the Cell arc has little to do with his personality, but more with how the story handled him. We had little to no foreshadowing in that arc that he'd be such a key player at the end. But Gohan didn't pop into existence at the beginning of the Cell arc, the assertiveness he showed in the Saiyan, and especially the Namek arc was still in our minds. That should count somewhat.

[ABED]

It's bad storytelling, and makes him less interesting. Those aren't great qualities in a lead. While I understand your rebuttal, the fact that people like it doesn't mean it's not bad writing.

That should count somewhat.

Somewhat, except that it's gone in this arc. He doesn't continue that same course.

[Michsi]

It's bad storytelling, and makes him less interesting. Those aren't great qualities in a lead. While I understand your rebuttal, the fact that people like it doesn't mean it's not bad writing.

Passiveness or tameness are not inherently negative qualities, though I agree those are usually not what you see in the lead character. Here's the thing though, he wasn't supposed to be the lead. Not yet anyway. In order for that moment when Goku calls him down to fight to be as shocking as it was intended to be, you needed to believe that Goku was the lead and the key player of the arc. Goku is pretty much the red herring of this arc in that regard. Technically, Gohan is only the lead in what counts as the Saiyaman arc and beginning of the Buu arc, and he is plenty assertive there.

Somewhat, except that it's gone in this arc. He doesn't continue that same course.

Because he gets overshadowed by louder, more authoritarian types, which weren't really around in the Namek arc. I agree that the story should've given him more chances to shine before his great moment so that it wouldn't feel completely out of left field, but such is the case with impromptu writing .

[ABED]

Because he gets overshadowed by louder, more authoritarian types, which weren't really around in the Namek arc. I agree that the story should've given him more chances to shine before his great moment so that it wouldn't feel completely out of left field, but such is the case with impromptu writing .

I don't think you get much more authoritarian (with the exception of Vegeta) than Chich and yet, what's the first major thing Gohan does in the Freeza arc? He yells at his mother and tells her he wants to go to Namek.

Passiveness or tameness are not inherently negative qualities

No, but they're bad for main characters in storytelling. Even if the arc is for them to become more active and assertive, it's still not a good idea. What's that interesting about a character who gets lead around and told what to do all the time? I get your point about the reveal, but there are better ways to do an effective reveal. And I don't know if I would call Gohan all that assertive in the Great Saiyaman parts. It's not as though it's much of a challenge for him to stop petty criminals, and it wasn't his idea to fight in the tournament.

[Michsi]

Because he gets overshadowed by louder, more authoritarian types, which weren't really around in the Namek arc. I agree that the story should've given him more chances to shine before his great moment so that it wouldn't feel completely out of left field, but such is the case with impromptu writing .

I don't think you get much more authoritarian (with the exception of Vegeta) than Chich and yet, what's the first major thing Gohan does in the Freeza arc? He yells at his mother and tells her he wants to go to Namek.

And in the beginning of the Cell Saga he asks to accompany Trunks to look at this mystery time machine and also disobeys his mother who wanted him to stay and do homework. Are we gonna nitpick every scene or look at the arcs as a whole ?

No, but they're bad for main characters in storytelling. Even if the arc is for them to become more active and assertive, it's still not a good idea. What's that interesting about a character who gets lead around and told what to do all the time? I get your point about the reveal, but there are better ways to do an effective reveal. And I don't know if I would call Gohan all that assertive in the Great Saiyaman parts. It's not as though it's much of a challenge for him to stop petty criminals, and it wasn't his idea to fight in the tournament.

Mob Psycho 101, Evangelion, KnB might have something to say about that. That it's not that interesting to you is one thing, but seeing as Gohan got the highest vote count in the arc (voting stops a few weeks before the date it gets published) means plenty liked him.
Him not wanting to lose to his little brother when he saw how powerful he was, the interest he shows in his Saiyaman gig, the desire avenge Videl, to fight Dabura, the anger he displays at the old Kai's dancing - yeah, his not that demure kid anymore.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Mob Psycho 101, Evangelion, KnB might have something to say about that. That it's not that interesting to you is one thing, but seeing as Gohan got the highest vote count in the arc (voting stops a few weeks before the date it gets published) means plenty liked him.
Him not wanting to lose to his little brother when he saw how powerful he was, the interest he shows in his Saiyaman gig, the desire avenge Videl, to fight Dabura, the anger he displays at the old Kai's dancing - yeah, his not that demure kid anymore.

At the time. I don't think that proves anything since the arc was still on going and everyone was swallowed up in Gohan hype and besides the likes of Krillin and Dende made the top 10 despite them having very little to do in the arc.

That is the main problem with Gohan people just don't seem to see past his SS2 transformation I'll be frank I remember very little of Gohan in the Cell arc after that transformation scene.

[ABED]

Are we gonna nitpick every scene or look at the arcs as a whole ?

That's a nitpick? How was I not talking about the arcs as a whole? Gohan is assertive the entire Freeza arc. He wanted to go to Namek to bring back his friends and he took steps to accomplish that goal. Gohan does a few things here and there in the Cell arc, but for the most part, he has no agency.

Mob Psycho 101, Evangelion, KnB might have something to say about that.

Never seen them, but I sure as hell don't want to now. What's interesting about a MAIN character who might have a goal, but doesn't take steps to achieve it? What's interesting about a character who constantly gets pushed along?

[Michsi]

Mob Psycho 101, Evangelion, KnB might have something to say about that. That it's not that interesting to you is one thing, but seeing as Gohan got the highest vote count in the arc (voting stops a few weeks before the date it gets published) means plenty liked him.
Him not wanting to lose to his little brother when he saw how powerful he was, the interest he shows in his Saiyaman gig, the desire avenge Videl, to fight Dabura, the anger he displays at the old Kai's dancing - yeah, his not that demure kid anymore.

At the time. I don't think that proves anything since the arc was still on going and everyone was swallowed up in Gohan hype and besides the likes of Krillin and Dende made the top 10 despite them having very little to do in the arc.

That is the main problem with Gohan people just don't seem to see past his SS2 transformation I'll be frank I remember very little of Gohan in the Cell arc after that transformation scene.

My point here was it's subjective and that plenty liked him despite that passiveness. And if voting for popularity polls back then was anything like it is today, then there was no hype yet to propel him to the nr.1 spot. According to Herms, this poll was published alongside the chapter in which Cell spits 18 out, and since voting stops a good few weeks before that, this would mean this was his popularity before his transformation.

That's a nitpick? How was I not talking about the arcs as a whole? Gohan is assertive the entire Freeza arc. He wanted to go to Namek to bring back his friends and he took steps to accomplish that goal. Gohan does a few things here and there in the Cell arc, but for the most part, he has no agency.

It's what it looks like to me. I say Namek arc gave him more room to act since he didn't have that many characters to overshadow him, you take one scene that has him mouth off to an 'authoritarian' character that served more as a comedic scene than anything else to disprove that entire statement. You could also say that he depends on Krillin's guidance a lot in this arc too, if we're going to get into analyzing minutia.

[ABED]

You'll find plenty that like him, but beyond turning SS2, it's in spite of his role in this story arc. Even assuming the numbers are reflective of the overall audience (doubtful), it still doesn't neccessarily prove that the audience likes how he's written in this arc. It's not a surprise that Gohan gets such a score given he's one of the main characters. They like Gohan, not how he was written. If Toriyama kept taking him down this path, I can easily see that popularity slip.

What about a character that has to constantly be told what to do and when to do it do you think appeals to people?

[ulisa]

I’m divided on Gohan in the Cell Arc. While that is easily my favorite arc, I will admit the writing is a bit all over the place. Regarding Gohan’s passiveness, yes, it’s a bit odd after Namek but my interpretation was always:

During Namek, Goku was gone or not able to be involved a majority of the time. I see Gohan stepping up and being assertive in his absense. Being the age he is, once Dad steps back into the picture, it makes sense of Gohan to withdraw because Dad will handle it. In the Cell arc, Goku is around except for the time with the heart virus and we see bits of that assertiveness pop up again.

The difference is that while on Namek, he has Krillin and occasionally Bulma as Authority figures, here his mother is around, the others are around so I think as a kid, you kind of figure the adults will handle it.

That’s one thing I think they convey really well during Goku and Cell’s fight—Gohan still has this sense that his dad is this unbeatable God which makes sense for his age. When Goku died against Raditz, Gohan was unconscious and even if he wasn’t, age 4 is too young to really comprehend what death means. I’m sure the Dragonballs make that even more complicated. So when he’s told that no, you really are stronger, that’s a major blow to a sense of reality.

On the other angle though, I think we see Gohan’s assertiveness really start to peak during his time with Goku in the Room Of Spirit and Time. He’s training, he’s calling his father out for not pushing him hard enough and it’s deep anger at his own failure that pushes him to Super Saiyan. If we’re referring to the anime here, we see several times that he pushes himself until he literally passes out and Goku has to carry him back in.

I always felt that, say what you will about Goku as a father, but his time with Gohan in the Time Chamber really boosted Gohan’s confidence and 1:1 time with his father really seemed to improve his self esteem. I don’t think the passiveness we see from Gohan is necessarily an in-depth character trait so much as it is lack of belief in himself. When Gohan has 1:1 time with his father or Piccolo or even Krillin, he seems to really grow. However, I think that when he’s back in the “real world” so to speak, various things cause that confidence to falter and so that strong character withdraws.

[ekrolo2]

I think I'd be fine with Gohan being more pasive in his actions if we got to get more inside of his head. Toriyama kind of tries to have Gohan point out that what Cell and his dad and all those other guys do is a bit fucked up before that gets swept under the "UR MAH GURD! SUPAR SAIYAJIN TW0 IS SO KEWL U GUISE!" rug. That just comes out of nowhere and like I said, is nothing but a bit of fluff so Cell can take things up a notch.

Gohan, if he was gonna be super passive, needed at the very least like some scenes where he gets to be a bit more introspective to show us he's more then a piece of background window dressing before the story suddenly wants us to buy he's gonna take over the spotlight.

[Wezenheim]

What about a character that has to constantly be told what to do and when to do it do you think appeals to people?

It's relatable. This is easier to see in the case of Evangelion's Shinji, where almost everything he does is for the sake of seeking approval from other people and trying to find self-worth. It might not be an exciting goal, but it is a goal. To help achieve that goal, Shinji often does what other people tell him to do, even if he doesn't want to.

On a purely spiritual level, I think that's something much easier for a lot of people to connect with than someone like Goku, for instance. I'm not saying that I dislike Goku's character or that passivity is the greatest trait for a protagonist to have, but it has its place in the right setting. I don't think Evangelion's end-game goal of learning to appreciate and take care of one's self would have landed nearly as well for a lot of people with a totally independent go-getter of a main character.

I don't really want to weigh too heavily in on the Gohan point until I've had a chance to get to the Cell arc in my manga re-read, but I don't remember having a huge issue with him.

[MozillaVulpix]

To continue on from what Wes is saying, another reason as to why it's so relatable is because he's still a child. Not every 9/11-year-old is going to naturally go out on their own without guidance from authority figures, and even if he's had situations of confronting authority figures before, that doesn't he's going to be like that in every subsequent moment. Children are naturally unsure of what to do and look to people like parents and teachers. It's not suddenly out-of-left field. He spends a lot of previous arcs under Goku or Piccolo's wing. Or doing what Krillin told him to do.

The real reason why Gohan doesn't do anything in the arc before the Cell fight is because Toriyama clearly didn't have anything else for him to do. It's not like he ever chooses to not try and fight when he could have. He joins the fight with the Androids, he volunteers to check out what's going on with Cell, and the only reason he doesn't end up contributing is because other characters explained it was probably safer for him to remain where he was. He really wasn't passive. He was just always given reasons for not being part of the A-plot.

[ekrolo2]

What about a character that has to constantly be told what to do and when to do it do you think appeals to people?

It's relatable. This is easier to see in the case of Evangelion's Shinji, where almost everything he does is for the sake of seeking approval from other people and trying to find self-worth. It might not be an exciting goal, but it is a goal. To help achieve that goal, Shinji often does what other people tell him to do, even if he doesn't want to.

On a purely spiritual level, I think that's something much easier for a lot of people to connect with than someone like Goku, for instance. I'm not saying that I dislike Goku's character or that passivity is the greatest trait for a protagonist to have, but it has its place in the right setting. I don't think Evangelion's end-game goal of learning to appreciate and take care of one's self would have landed nearly as well for a lot of people with a totally independent go-getter of a main character.

I don't really want to weigh too heavily in on the Gohan point until I've had a chance to get to the Cell arc in my manga re-read, but I don't remember having a huge issue with him.

I think the difference between the two comparisons is that Shinji being passive is a... active part of the story telling, you can tell it's the intent and it's got build up and pay off. Gohan's just kind of a big load of nothing for the vast majority of the arc, literally EVERYONE else contributes in some meaningful way besides him until the story decides that Gohan's passivity and lack of confidence is a thing now and we're gonna resolve it with his trial by fire. It doesn't really work because Gohan's passivity doesn't come off as a conscious trait for him so much as Toriyama forgetting he exists for dozens of chapters then remembering that Gohan does in fact exist.

[ABED]

But he's a child who fought two of the strongest people in the universe before his balls even dropped. I could take it more if it was part of his character arc and he hadn't already solved it two arcs prior, but no, he has no agency at any point in the story, not even the very end when would've been the time to have him become active, but no. He's passive to the very end, and that's not Gohan, at least not the Gohan we got from the end of the Saiyan arc and the whole Freeza arc.

Or doing what Krillin told him to do.

Not really. It was his decision to go to Namek. He was the one who saved Dende when Kuririn told him to stay hidden, and it was Gohan who decided to go and find the DB Vegeta had hidden. Hell, when Reacoom had defeated both Kuririn and Vegeta, Gohan showed no fear and put up a fight against him.

characters explained it was probably safer for him to remain where he was.

And yet that didn't stop him from doing what he wanted in previous arcs. In the Saiyan arc when he and Kuririn were flying back home, it was Gohan that decided to turn around and help Goku against Kuririn's wish. And if your view is that he was always given a reason not to contribute because what other characters said, then I don't think you understand what a passive character is. That's the definition of passive. Even when he is part of the A-story, he has no agency. He's usually doing what other people tell him to do.

[Michsi]

In addition to what people have already said about Gohan being somewhat relatable - another reason he is likeable for a lot of people is precisely because of his polite, sweet and demure nature. Generally I find character like this painfully boring, but Dragon Ball is filled to the brim with brash, eccentric, loud, self-centered characters that it's him that stands out with those unobtrusive attributes.

[ABED]

In addition to what people have already said about Gohan being somewhat relatable - another reason he is likeable for a lot of people is precisely because of his polite, sweet and demure nature. Generally I find character like this painfully boring, but Dragon Ball is filled to the brim with brash, eccentric, loud, self-centered characters that it's him that stands out with those unobtrusive attributes.

The question isn't whether he's likable. I like that he's different, but in one story arc, the arc where he's supposed to become the main character, ironically, he's the least active he ever was.

[Wezenheim]

I think the difference between the two comparisons is that Shinji being passive is a... active part of the story telling, you can tell it's the intent and it's got build up and pay off. Gohan's just kind of a big load of nothing for the vast majority of the arc, literally EVERYONE else contributes in some meaningful way besides him until the story decides that Gohan's passivity and lack of confidence is a thing now and we're gonna resolve it with his trial by fire. It doesn't really work because Gohan's passivity doesn't come off as a conscious trait for him so much as Toriyama forgetting he exists for dozens of chapters then remembering that Gohan does in fact exist.

Oh I don't disagree that Shinji and Gohan aren't really comparable here, especially when it comes to the presentation of their stories. I was just arguing for the potential appeal of passive MCs in general and why Evangelion gets away with it. The interesting thing about Gohan's passivity to me is how it contrasts with everyone else in the arc. Perfect Cell is basically a giant culmination of a bunch of battle-hungry meatheads and the mistakes that they made in their attempts to stop him, so I think it's interesting that the most "docile" cast member was the one tasked with beating him and putting those mistakes to bed. I do agree that the presentation of that idea and Gohan's role could have been fleshed out a better, though.

[Super_Divine_Genki]

How does experiencing the manga VS the anime affect this view? I'll assume that the anime worked in more Gohan content throughout the Cyborg/Cell arc to better keep him in the picture and made more of an attempt to set him up for what came later.

Anime adaptation: I have no problems with how or in what capacity Gohan was written throughout that arc. Many points in Gohan's favor that I agree with have already been commented on here, so I'd be mostly repeating them. Gohan simply defers to the more experienced star players. The narrative gives us at least two reasons for why Gohan is mostly in the periphery for the bulk of the arc.

I'm not sure why "out of left field" is always thrown in with this topic of discussion... ? Gohan was setup to do something big the moment that he and Goku walked into the RoSaT. Bad writing is also thrown around as if it's objectively so. The writing here as far as Gohan's role is concerned is subtle -- Toriyama didn't forget about him, and most likely had him as his end-game from the conception of that arc.

I'll stay away from commenting on the differences between the Namek arc and the Cell arc. Comparing the two, and Gohan's role within, are kinda pointless because they are completely different scenarios. The Namek arc simply afforded Gohan the situation to display a more assertive personalty throughout that story. It was more personal for him.

It's Goku who has to convince him to not give up and tell him when to fire the killing shot at Cell.

This is a tough one for me. It may come down to having some degree of understanding of the Eastern view as opposed to our Western view in this case. In the Far East culture, from my understanding, it's hammered into society to get it right the first time and to perform at a borderline flawless level at whatever a person does. Otherwise, one would feel that they've dishonored their family name and disgraced themselves, whether it be academics or profession. I'm not sure what is the main cause of the high suicide rates in Japan, but I think that it could stem from that idea. Failure is not an option. Gohan not putting up a final stand on his own accord, conceding defeat, and being fine with everyone else dying after a bout of displaying sadistic behavior and toying around so much with Cell (failing to get it right the first time) could possibly tie into the cultural thing, and the "warrior code".

If looked at that way (the Eastern way), Goku's pep-talk sends a positive message: "Don't give up... I'm proud of you! You can try again! Don't worry about me." The cultural element and relation to that scene is a vicarious position for me to say though, as I haven't lived day-to-day in that environment and mainly going off of my relationship with Vietnamese culture and articles I've read. It's my assumption.

However, I can understand why someone would have issue with the conclusion. Perhaps the meaning of it is lost in translation. I've gone back-and-forth on it a few times myself, even recently. Now, I'm leaning more towards accepting it as it went down mostly because of said cultural impact on the writing. That's the one scene involving Gohan throughout that entire arc that I've been conflicted over.

Dragon Ball is filled to the brim with brash, eccentric, loud, self-centered characters that it's him that stands out with those unobtrusive attributes.

Perfect Cell is basically a giant culmination of a bunch of battle-hungry meatheads and the mistakes that they made in their attempts to stop him, so I think it's interesting that the most "docile" cast member was the one tasked with beating him and putting those mistakes to bed.

Yes to both of these.