Dragon Ball Z - Episodes 41-45 (& Z Movie 2) - Discussion Thread [Rewatch - Week 9]

[Ajay]

Welcome! For details on this rewatch, click here!

Out of the filler and into the fire! The Namek arc begins for real... just.

Here are some legal ways to stream the series:
Funimation (North America)
AnimeLab (Australia and New Zealand)

This week we're covering:

[spoiler]親切な宇宙人　いきなりあったよ五星球
Shinsetsu na Uchū-jin　Ikinari Atta yo Ūshinchū
Kind-hearted Aliens — There’s the Five-Star Ball Already

As soon as they escape from the universal current, Planet Namek is right before their eyes?! Gohan and the others immediately land, but the cliff crumbles away and they lose consciousness. When they wake up, the Namekians Raichi and Zarkro are there. They set out right away in search of the Dragon Balls. They discover Dragon Balls one after the other: in the middle of a river, in some ruins, and at the bottom of a lake that melts living things! With Raichi’s help, it seems that they’ve somehow managed to find three Dragon Balls in a single day, but…

惑星フリーザＮｏ．７９　復活のベジータ！！
Wakusei Furīza Nanbā Sebunti Nain　Fukkatsu no Bejīta!!
Planet Freeza No. 79 — Vegeta Recovers!!

Having so quickly found their third Dragon Ball, Gohan and the others are determined to gather the remaining ones. Finding the Three-Star Ball in an eternally ceaseless waterspout, and stealing the Seven-Star Ball, which had been made into a giant’s earring, they finally have got five Dragon Balls assembled. However, something is strange about all this… Meanwhile, Goku begins intense training, even though his injuries have not yet healed, and Vegeta receives medical treatment at one of Freeza’s bases, finally reviving!!

そろったぞ神龍球！ピッコロさんも生き返る
Sorotta zo Doragon Bōru! Pikkoro-san mo Ikikaeru
The Dragon Balls Are All Here! Piccolo-san Comes Back to Life

The sixth Dragon Ball is inside an icy cave! Gohan and the others easily obtained the Dragon Balls, but the cave collapses! They slide through the cave riding on fragments of ice! Behind them rolls a gigantic ball of ice!! The are furthermore sent flying off a precipitous cliff, but somehow manage to save themselves with Bukūjutsu. They finally arrive at the lake where they last Dragon Ball is, but Raichi and Zarkro are there! It turns out that the pair are not really Namekians!!

あらたな強敵！宇宙の帝王フリーザ
Arata na Kyōteki! Uchū no Teiō Furīza
A Tough New Enemy! Emperor of the Universe, Freeza

It turns out the Raichi and Zarkro are aliens who were caught up in the universal current and crash-landed on Fake Planet Namek! They tricked Gohan and the others by showing them illusions until the universal current died down! As Gohan and Kuririn are caught by gigantic shellfish and can’t move, Raichi and Zarkro try to steal their spaceship, but are defeated by Gohan and the others as they follow a hair’s breath behind them. Escaping from Fake Planet Namek, Gohan and the others finally arrive at the real Planet Namek this time. But at the same time, Vegeta’s spaceship lands…

野望のベジータ！宇宙一の戦士はオレだ！！
Yabō no Bejīta! Uchūichi no Senshi wa Ore da!!
Vegeta’s Ambition! I am the Greatest Warrior in the Universe!!

The evil emperor Freeza has arrived on Planet Namek one step ahead of everyone else, bringing Dodoria and Zarbon with him. Freeza attacks the Namekian villages in order to gather the Dragon Balls. His goal is the same as Vegeta; “eternal life”! Vegeta defeats Kewi, who followed after him. Vegeta’s battle power has increased from the battle on Earth! Meanwhile, Gohan and the others are attacked by Freeza’s underlings. They quickly defeat the underlings, but the spaceship is damaged.[/spoiler]


Suggested Format & Weekly Questions

Language: For the sake of context, let us know which language you're watching the series in (and what score, if required).
General Thoughts: Your thoughts on the episode, possibly linked to the suggested questions if need be. Cover the plot, the tone, the character interactions, and characterisation.
Entertainment Factor: How was the pacing? Did the episode keep you entertained throughout, or what could have been done better?
Animation: Did you like the action sequences, or the way characters emoted? Did things move in a satisfying way, or was it mostly style over substance?
Questions: Not necessary, but if you're curious about opinions on a specific point that hasn't been touched on, go ahead and ask! It's a nice way to spur the topic onward.

- These episodes contain some brief build-up towards Freeza's reveal. How do you feel they do as far setting him up goes?

OPTIONAL:
Dragon Ball Z Movie 2
この世で一番強いヤツ
Kono Yo de Ichiban Tsuyoi Yatsu
The World’s Strongest Guy

[gaberparadiso]

Episode 41

General thoughts: I tried to be as less biased as possible towards this episode, which introduces the Fake Namek mini-arc, which doesn't seem to have a good reputation... for a very good reason. This episode is terrible: for instance, how is the Dragon Radar supposed to function with fake DBs on that planet? That device might be really sensitive, but it's never explained. Then we have these two uninteresting characters, Zaacro and Raiti, who decide to help Krillin and co. find the (fake) DBs. And that's basically the plot of this episode: just about slow and boring segments of these morons looking for the DBs. And instead of having a decent action scene, these segments are lengthened even further, without showing some interesting glimpses. Furthermore, the hospital cutaway manages to be even more obnoxious, by displaying an awful characterization of Chichi, who keeps bashing her own husband. When a relative is being hospitalized, especially if it's your own husband/wife, I presume your attitude is 'A BIT' different from Chichi's, right? You are most likely CONCERNED and not unneedly PISSED OFF. I know it's a harsh example, but this episode is a living problem: it ranges from leaving me indifferent or thoroughly annoyed. It blows.

Entertainment factor: none. The passage from Vegeta's thoughts to Goku's dream is fairly decent, but that's it. It's not a well-directed episode.

Animation: as expected, Okazaki's storyboarding is quite inconsistent. Sometimes his proportions are also serviceable, but it's nothing that engaging. As for Maeda's staff, something is starting to break down: art-wise, while it looks fine overall, Maeda's corrections can be spotted throughout the episode, which pretty much confirms that even though they had 7 weeks, the four of them took part to movie 2 production at some point, with Ide also animating ep. 40, thus explaining why it looks less polished than the previous entries. Moreover, I believe Maeda has the exact opposite issue as Koji Nashizawa on Super: the latter seems to struggle with frontal proportions, whereas the former has several problems with lateral/three-quarters proportions, and those squared jaws of his are not always appropriate, especially in Bulma's case. https://twitter.com/DBanimators/status/ ... 7110971392 As for the others, Satou and Ide's presence is limited to the 1st half, for known reasons, whereas Eguchi animates a large portion of the 2nd half. Lastly, Nakatsuru's art is quite solid. Perhaps way too solid, because his lack of expressivity is kind of a problem, as he tends to maintain his traits without giving some variety. Which, again, is a considerable flaw, especially on Gohan and Bulma: the former looks way too mature for his age, and the latter looks rather masculine with a squared jaw and sticking out ears. https://twitter.com/DBanimators/status/ ... 7445301248

Music: the best thing about this episode. a.k.a. the ONLY good thing. It's quite nice to hear old DB tracks on a DBZ episode: it's been a while since M9 was being played. Enemy Has The Upper Hand and Feel The Burn are other welcome additions. Regardless, Mt. Frypan and M306 sound meh.

Overall: 2/10. Just no.

[gaberparadiso]

Episode 42

General thoughts: the concept of the Fake Namek mini-arc is harmless... but everything else is DREADFUL. This episode was written by TWO writers, but the result is awful. Even though they included some action in the main plot, it's still not enough. I still find it really dull. Once again, the female characterization is obnoxious and is incredibly irritating. Two people wrote this episode, and didn't manage to build a decent characterization for a WOMAN. In 1990 they want to place their bets on bitchy characters, without giving them any redeemable qualities. Which is simply DISGRACEFUL.
The Goku sub-plot is harmless, but it's nothing special. While a lot better than the main plot, it's filler inside the filler itself. The ending bit is quite good, with Vegeta finally recovering from his wounds. The only decent thing of a dreadful episode, which cannot erase 20 minutes of boredom and peeve.

Entertainment factor: dull and annoying. And much like ep. 37, Matsuura's direction is way too simplistic. It doesn't work at all.

Animation: art-wise, this episode is serviceable enough: Uchiyama's corrections are basically dominant and more or less consistent. I personally think his rounder features work on female characters much better here. https://twitter.com/DBanimators/status/ ... 8060443653 In terms of action, we have Shida animating the Goku cutscene in the 2nd half, which shows a more detailed character art and his distinctive timing. The fight with Krillin, Gohan and the giant looks pretty forgettable. I'm not sure if it's animated by Ohara, but if it is, it's definitely not among his best work.

Music: much like ep. 41, the best thing here is the BGM placement. Plenty of DB tracks, like M121 and Yajirobe's Revenge. M816 at the end is basically perfect, since at this point of the series Vegeta is still a threat. And you know shit goes down when an enemy wakes up.

Overall: 3/10. A good ending cannot save another dull episode.

[TrunksTrevelyan0064]

Episodes covered: Dragon Ball Z 41-45 ("Dragon Ball 194-198")


EPISODE 41
* Ohh boy. Here we go. Fake Namek. At least the animation looks great, for now.
* One positive thing: on a first viewing, this episode would probably succesfully trick you into thinking this really is Planet Namek.
* Not that bad of an episode, actually, it's just knowing that this is all a waste of time that makes it feel like a drag to watch. In a vacuum, it can be a fun cute little Dragon Ball adventure.

EPISODE 42
* Gohan somehow blows up a whirlwind with a Masenko. Sure.
* Those giant plant bird things have a pretty interesting design, I guess...?
* Okay, I do like that Goku returns to where he fought Vegeta (or a place that looks identical) for training. I seem to remember Muten Rôshi coming down there to oversee his training to make sure he doesn't hurt himself too bad, but that must be the wishful-thinking part of my mind playing tricks on me.

EPISODE 43
* The best thing I can say about the "ice cave adventures" is that it reminds me of the 2nd Pokémon movie, which I have a lot of personal attachment to.
* Yay, the first Kewi/Vegeta banter scene. It's not ALL meaningless filler! Vegeta looks cool throwing himself into his spacepod.
* I have questions for Lychee and Zarkuro (like why bother with the whole fake Namek illusion at all, and how does the radar pick up Dragon Ball signals) but I assume those will be answered next episode. I don't remember.

EPISODE 44
* Yep, okay. Explanations. Yay. But they still don't explain how the radar "worked". Maybe that was simply an illusion too. Whatever. The end of fake Namek. YAY. Departing that planet with that Cha La rendition playing actually got me pumped a little bit!
* One of my first glimpses at Dragon Ball back in the day, before I started following it regularly, must've been this episode. I remember seeing [who I now know to be Bulma, Gohan and Kuririn] against a dark blue/grayish backdrop, thinking "Didn't this show have some really strong guy? Where is he?" I guess it's a testament to the character of Son Goku that I was aware of his existence long before I learned his name or actually got into Dragon Ball. On the other hand, it's crazy to think there was a time when I didn't know who Son Goku was!
* This episode moves surprisingly quick, considering we just came off of a bunch of padding material. Here's Namek! There's Vegeta! Calling Kame House! There's Kewi! Hi Freeza!!

EPISODE 45
* "So good to hear Ryusei Nakao again" is what I WOULD say, but I've been hearing him in Super for months on end! Not that that's a bad thing; Freeza is probably Dragon Ball's most iconic villain and I am so damn excited to watch the rest of this arc.
* I'm actually glad the spaceship gets wrecked so that Kuririn & co are forced to stay on Namek. Coming all this way just to flee back to Earth would've been awful.
* Speaking of things getting wrecked, I always enjoy that little badass moment of Kuririn and Gohan beating up those goons.
* I actually like Kewi a lot, but I have no idea why. Even so, I have absolutely no problem with Vegeta utterly obliterating him.
* NOOO DON'T END IT THERE I love that scene that's coming up! Well... that's for next time, then.


- These episodes contain some brief build-up towards Freeza's reveal. How do you feel they do as far setting him up goes?
Let's see. Before we even meet him, we know that Freeza is apparently too powerful for Vegeta to face head on, and we know that he commands a massive army. However, Gohan and Kuririn immediately show us that said army doesn't seem all that scary. So you could say we're left wondering... is Freeza really such a big deal?
It is not until the very next episode, when Gohan and Kuririn are paralyzed with fear upon sensing his terrifyingly huge power, that Freeza gets solidified as a threat so unfathomably large that it is inconceivable that anyone could possibly ever stand up to him. At least, that's the impression I got when I first saw that scene as a kid.


Favorite character: One good thing about the filler material here is that it allowed us to bond with Bulma, Kuririn and Gohan a little more, although nothing super memorable happened with them. I'll say Vegeta was my favorite this week; he risks so much starting an open rebellion against Freeza, but he handles himself so well at the same time. It won't be the last time he makes this list; cunning, strategic Namek-arc Vegeta is probably my favorite Vegeta.
Previous favorites: Raditz, Gohan, the saber-toothed tiger, Kaiô, Tenshinhan, Vegeta, Kuririn, Bulma.

[Taisa732]

Language: Japanese

General Thoughts:
Episode 41/42/43 and part of 44 : there isn't much to say about the fake Namek episodes. The aliens are boring and they don't seem to belong in the Dragon Ball universe. All that happens on this planet is uninteresting at best. Even the final “plot twist” is just so contrived that it becomes unbelievable.
With that said there are a few things that are worth taking in consideration.
First of all I personally like the dynamic between the main trio, it reminds me of the pirate caves adventures, a side from the fact that with the exception of Goku it is the same two-thirds. And since I really enjoy that segment of the story I still like it here.
The second thing is Goku, although he isn't doing anything in particular I have to point out that this is the first time he doesn't have senzu available (at least since he discovered them), so it's the first time he has to heal the traditional way. It's interesting watching him attempting to use his power and struggling to do so.
But this is still not enough entertain to want more than just a small bit of it. It's ok until the focus of the main plot is mostly fillers, but after the landing on the real Namek it becomes unwelcome. I draw the line at episode 44, beyond that Earth is just a boring place.
Last thing that generally keeps me to strait up skipping all of this is Vegeta. For reasons similar to Goku, even though very different. Like in Goku's case, Vegeta is also healing form the previous battle, but unlike him we never seen this environment or method. Everything we see around Vegeta is new for us and we can also see this alien surroundings for the first time. Furthermore we also have the opportunity the see Vegeta in his “habitat”. We discover how other soldiers react to him. From the low level ones that bow when he walks the corridors to Kiwi who instead treats Vegeta as an equal.
I would've loved to see more of this, but Vegeta is the only one that is actually moving the plot, so please no more fillers!

Episode 44 the rest of it and 45: Let me start by saying this, there is no better casting than Ryusei Nakao as Freeza! It's that perfect.
Besides that I like everything about the landing. The interactions between Bulma, Gohan and Krillin are very fun and enjoyable, even when they realize that maybe getting the Dragon Balls wouldn't be that easy. Speaking of, Vegeta's arrival is also very nice. I like when they see his spaceship land and understand that they have a big problem, and once again when Kiwi's ship arrives few seconds after.
I like that they are still trying to wrap there heads around the whole situation, before the two henchmen get to them and destroy the ship keeping them on Namek without a way to escape.
So, landing was a series of terrible discoveries, in the meantime we have a Vegeta strike one. I like the battle between Vegeta and Kiwi because it shows us a lot of little things that will become important later on. The fact that Vegeta has now learned to master ki, for a start. Freeza's reaction to his power increase plus Zarbon and Dodoria's. But it wouldn't be fair if I didn't admit that Vegeta's fireworks comment is probably the best thin about it.

Animation: Since the only real fight in this is mostly done by standing around there isn't to much to talk about even if there are two beautiful episodes, as far as art style.
The weird thing is that what I liked a lot this week was hair. There are many occasions where a head movement has a very nice and fluid motion from the hair, especially on Gohan and Bulma (obviously not on Krillin XD).
Episode 41, Gohan coming out from the water; episode 44, Gohan turning around when he senses a strange ki or Bulma every head turn.
Probably just me, but I really appreciated it.

- These episodes contain some brief build-up towards Freeza's reveal. How do you feel they do as far setting him up goes?

Generally I like to think of the Namek arc as “saiyan arc part 2” because they both have an awesome way to build-up the main villain. Every enemy or power up in the two respective arcs are masterfully handled so you can instinctively know how strong the next contestant is.
The link between the two is Vegeta who was the previous bad guy and is now playing the role that Piccolo covered in the saiyan arc. The last villain that was the earlier obstacle but can't overcome the next guy's power. It's basically like a video game.
So in that regard I don't think this is the moment where you really have the sense of who Freeza is or what he's capable of. I believe that the first instant you start to have a better understanding of his character is actually in episode 46.
When Krillin and Gohan sense his ki while hiding in the cave with Bulma and realizing how far beyond he is from Vegeta. There reaction alone setts up this new powerful and scary enemy.

Sorry I won't be able to watch any of the moves. A side from not having enough time I don't have them available for now.

[gaberparadiso]

Episode 43

General thoughts: while it's not great, at the very least we get a fair amount of entertainment. Once again, the subplots are more interesting than the Fake Namek facts. Apparently now Goku knows Telekinesis. Weird, since we never see him doing that in canon materials. The best part is of course the one involving Vegeta, who forgot to turn off his scouter, since Freezer heard his conversation with Nappa about the Namekian DBs. This is a clear example of his recklessness, which is typical of Vegeta's character. We also know a new enemy, Kyui, an older foe for Vegeta, who provokes him about his defeat on Earth and about Freezer being mad at him. Why wasn't THIS the main plot? We know more about Vegeta's personality, we know new characters and also new planets, like Planet 419. This is far more enjoyable than the Fake Namek plot: the ice cave sequence is kinda fun, but that's pretty much it. It leaves me either bored or indifferent.

Entertainment factor: inconsistent. It depends on my interest in each single plot. Ueda's direction is really solid. We kinda missed this sort of cohesiveness.

Animation: once again, great storyboarding from Ueda. Art-wise, though, this episode looks quite rough: Shindo's supervision is rather limited, and some proportions look a bit weird and all over the place, like Vegeta's hair and face features. He has open eye lines in one shot.https://twitter.com/DBanimators/status/ ... 5120483328 Yamamuro is pretty easy to recognize, thanks to his solid drawings. https://twitter.com/DBanimators/status/ ... 7714800641

Music: good placement overall: Psychotic Break is so underused I don't even remember the occasions when it was played. M121 sounds really appropriate for the ice cave sequence, much like The Darkest Hour and M511 at the end, which are good, as well.

Overall: 5,5/10. I don't hate it like the other two, but I feel they should've focused on Vegeta's subplot more.

[gaberparadiso]

Episode 44

General thoughts: the Fake Namek is OVER. PARTY TIME. Jokes aside, these two characters are really generic and bland. They don't even have a backstory, they just want to escape because their planet blows. That's it. It's still unexplained why the Dragon Radar worked with rocks disguised as DBs. Anyway, planet Namek makes its debut, and it turns out Krillin and co. are not alone: not only Vegeta is here, too, but we finally meet the new enemy, the space tyrant Freezer. That's a fair introduction of his character, voiced by our Lord Ryusei Nakao, who is just awesome. We get to hear his very first Hohoho.
The Goku cutaway is nothing special. Those doctors are getting really annoying.

Entertainment factor: it's okay. Not the best direction from Orime.

Animation: before watching this episode, I was biased towards Nakatsuru as a supervisor, because I'm definitely not a fan of his artstyle, and even less as a supervisor in the Bardack special and ep. 120. It's a fortune I was proven wrong: for being the very first "in-house" episode, I actually enjoyed Nakatsuru's supervision. His corrections make it look consistent and solid, without being invasive. Even though I don't really like his Bulma, I just cannot complain. This is also the first time for Okimoto in a non-Aoshima episode, and especially the very first time for Naoki Miyahara, who animates the Goku cutaway. https://twitter.com/DBanimators/status/ ... 0071945216

Music: some DB tracks in the 1st half, like I20 or G9. M816 is perfect for Freezer's introduction. Apart from those, decent placement here.

Overall: 6/10. Taking up an entire 1st half to end the Fake Namek arc is kinda questionable.

[gaberparadiso]

Episode 45

General thoughts: this episode has nothing wrong. It's just terribly directed: there's way too much idle time, and cutaways are badly placed. Content-wise, it's nice to see some more action, like Gohan and Krillin easily defeating Freezer's soldiers, and Vegeta vs Kyui, which is a pretty short fight, but still gives interesting aspects about Vegeta's personality. In fact, his Saiyan blood makes the real difference from his foe (Zenkai boost aside), as Kyui was busy kissing Freezer's ass while he was risking his life on Earth. His execution is brutal, and I really like it.

Entertainment factor: rather enjoyable, but its direction is really weak. I know this was Shigeyasu Yamauchi's debut in the series, but I do hope he gets better later, because this is the most serious flaw of this episode.

Animation: much like his direction, Yamauchi's storyboarding falls flat as well. Overall, this is pretty much a really inconsistent episode, which is understandable with barely 3 weeks after Uchiyama's last time. It does alternate some nice individualities with some really wonky art. https://twitter.com/DBanimators/status/ ... 4882958337 No wonder we could spot Takeo Ide's uncredited key animation at the end. https://twitter.com/DBanimators/status/ ... 8470036480 By now we should get used to this sort of quality seesaws, especially if we compare this with Nakatsuru's solid supervision from last time, which somehow represents the history of the franchise, a rotation between better and worse episodes. In terms of animation, once again, we get some interesting individualities from Ohara and Shida, who are such animation specialists. https://twitter.com/DBanimators/status/ ... 8404238337

Music: please, don't use The Rabbit Gang Pushes Their Weight Around anymore. It's AWFUL. It's quite ironic that M802 is used at the beginning, when it's usually used as an ending track. M815 fits the last part very well. Nothing much to say, it's an okay placement.

Overall: 6,5/10. A serviceable episode ruined by a weak direction.